What do you think of these bulls?
- Thread starter ArmyDoc
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ANAZAZI":1ympwrcj said:
Number one would be my first pick if I go with them too. Thanks for your input.
I'm not clear on the fine boned thing either. Can anyone enlighten me? Herefords are docked around here because they have a reputation for being "big boned", presumably increasing the amount of waste per carcass? (not saying this is true or valid, just saying what I was told)
Your point about the age at which they achieve these looks is good one... is there any way other than weaning and yearling weights to get an indication of this?
Chi-man
Active member
If I were you, I would stick to the Red Angus!! I live in Doerun, Georgia. We have used lots of different breeds on commercial cows. We started with straight bred black angus years ago. We crossed them to Gert bulls (for about ten years). Saved the half blood heifers and bred to Charolais bulls - what a wreck!!! The Gert cross cows weighed about 300 more pounds than their Black Angus mommas. Their calves only averaged 60 pounds more than the straight Black Angus calves did. Those Black Angus cows were old too!! I would stay away from eared cattle. Again, my opinion - the bonuses they provided did not make up for the problems - feet, legs, udders, and disposition. I also hated pulling calves out of those eared cows. (Tried a few Brangus with same results) They were made different - hard to explain, but mostly because the bottom of the pelvis was very narrow. They hard a large pelvic opening but it was shaped wrong for those Char calves. We used calving ease Char bulls also. We sold the 250 eared cows we had and kept the commercial angus cows from the group. We have had a registered Black Angus herd for years and are now breeding those cows to Red Angus bulls - Great results!!!!! Red cattle will graze longer in the heat and they are fleshing easier than their black counterparts. We are moving toward Red Angus/Simmental composite cattle for brood cows that are red. We want to AI. all the red heifers that we keep each year with sexed semen from a Red Angus or Simmental bull. We also are trying to stay below breed average for milk epd's because too much milk is not a good thing in heat and humidity. We went too far with milk and are now paying the price with cows that milk too much. We will breed the red cows natural service to a homozygous black Chi influenced bull with good tenderness genes. That way, if it is black, it leaves and if it is red and a heifer, it stays. Also, the Chi cattle take the heat much better than I ever thought they would. Hopefully we will be able to maintain more heat tolerance with the terminal calves by using the black Chi influenced bull and still fit the black market. I am sure that most people on here will disagree with everything that I have said. The most important thing that you can do is find a cow that fits your environment and your management style. Then, breed her to a bull to either replace her with an exact duplicate or create the best eating experience a consumer can have - personally I'll take tender over fat anyday. Nothing makes me madder than ordering a steak and having to leave most of it on the plate because of all the fat!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want a hunk of tender red meat with no visible fat on the plate. I think it can be done.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
ArmyDoc -(and ANAZAZI)-
Your comments regarding the factor of "Bone Size" in seedstock bulls brings to the discussion some interesting analysis appraisals. When judging, analysing, and determining seedstock selections, in preparation for acquiring satisfactory and "improved" genetics to realize a PROFIT from our efforts in beef production, factors OTHER than Phenotype and Genotype come into play - primary among them being the physical traits we refer to as "Functional" traits. These physical or 'type' traits have not been focused upon sufficiently as yet to be described with EPDs. Functional characteristics may be understood and clarified as those which work, or perform, or allow other factors to work for the longevity of the herd and to the benefit of the producer. Skeletal structure (sound feet and legs) which encompasses adequate bone substance and capacity, quantification, and value, is critical - not necessarily size, thickness or bigness.
Other Functional Traits include masculinity, femininity, mammary structure and teat size (again - not too big or too little), shoulders, spine, (top line), disposition -- and others as well. But, we are concerned in this discussion with Bone structure (fine, or heavy [ "big boned"]), and the relativity of such to seedstock selection.
When we consider the activities (functions) of a breeding bull, one may easily understand that a fine-boned herd sire could be inadequate in attempting to settle 25-60 females in heat over a large paddock or pasture - for a period of several YEARS, and continue to maintain his physical capabilities as a successful breeder. With inadequate bone development he could become stifled (broken down in his "Knees"), pasterns, sickle-hocked, cow-hocked, and splay-footed. His inability to function as a herd sire would be in sharp jeopardy, both for himself as a breeder and for his produced progeny as future seedstock or terminal feedlot performers. In much the same way, if a buyer is seeking thick, muscular bulls for a Terminal program and you as a seedstock provider have only light-boned, frail, funnel-butted sires, one is not going to make many seedstock sales.
It is a matter of balance within the breeding business. Finding that "narrow window" of selection traits which incorporates all of the Genotype, Phenotype AND adequate "Functional" traits which are necessary for PROFIT to yourself AND your customers is the operative selection criteria which is necessary for success. :nod:
Whether the skeletal structure (bone) of seedstock is too much or too little depends upon the particular breed, and the selection standards one determines is necessary for his own particular operation and beef production protocols. This is another example of the inadvisability of using "single trait selection" practices in seedstock selection.
As a final thought for this thread, as a bull matures, his leg bone thickness reveals itself through the endrocrine action of testosterone which stimulates Nitrogen retention resulting in medium legs as the result of male hormones stopping the growth of long bones. This is another justification for early castration of feedlot steers so as to not allow them to become "staggy", and demonstrating male sex characteristics.
Successful, PROFITABLE, Beef Cattle Production is a little more complicated than breeding A bull to A cow with a single trait selection Agenda. It's NOT easy!
DON'T GET ME STARTED!
DOC HARRIS
Your comments regarding the factor of "Bone Size" in seedstock bulls brings to the discussion some interesting analysis appraisals. When judging, analysing, and determining seedstock selections, in preparation for acquiring satisfactory and "improved" genetics to realize a PROFIT from our efforts in beef production, factors OTHER than Phenotype and Genotype come into play - primary among them being the physical traits we refer to as "Functional" traits. These physical or 'type' traits have not been focused upon sufficiently as yet to be described with EPDs. Functional characteristics may be understood and clarified as those which work, or perform, or allow other factors to work for the longevity of the herd and to the benefit of the producer. Skeletal structure (sound feet and legs) which encompasses adequate bone substance and capacity, quantification, and value, is critical - not necessarily size, thickness or bigness.
Other Functional Traits include masculinity, femininity, mammary structure and teat size (again - not too big or too little), shoulders, spine, (top line), disposition -- and others as well. But, we are concerned in this discussion with Bone structure (fine, or heavy [ "big boned"]), and the relativity of such to seedstock selection.
When we consider the activities (functions) of a breeding bull, one may easily understand that a fine-boned herd sire could be inadequate in attempting to settle 25-60 females in heat over a large paddock or pasture - for a period of several YEARS, and continue to maintain his physical capabilities as a successful breeder. With inadequate bone development he could become stifled (broken down in his "Knees"), pasterns, sickle-hocked, cow-hocked, and splay-footed. His inability to function as a herd sire would be in sharp jeopardy, both for himself as a breeder and for his produced progeny as future seedstock or terminal feedlot performers. In much the same way, if a buyer is seeking thick, muscular bulls for a Terminal program and you as a seedstock provider have only light-boned, frail, funnel-butted sires, one is not going to make many seedstock sales.
It is a matter of balance within the breeding business. Finding that "narrow window" of selection traits which incorporates all of the Genotype, Phenotype AND adequate "Functional" traits which are necessary for PROFIT to yourself AND your customers is the operative selection criteria which is necessary for success. :nod:
Whether the skeletal structure (bone) of seedstock is too much or too little depends upon the particular breed, and the selection standards one determines is necessary for his own particular operation and beef production protocols. This is another example of the inadvisability of using "single trait selection" practices in seedstock selection.
As a final thought for this thread, as a bull matures, his leg bone thickness reveals itself through the endrocrine action of testosterone which stimulates Nitrogen retention resulting in medium legs as the result of male hormones stopping the growth of long bones. This is another justification for early castration of feedlot steers so as to not allow them to become "staggy", and demonstrating male sex characteristics.
Successful, PROFITABLE, Beef Cattle Production is a little more complicated than breeding A bull to A cow with a single trait selection Agenda. It's NOT easy!
DON'T GET ME STARTED!
DOC HARRIS
Thanks Doc,
I certainly is an educational experience.
ANAZAZI,
I am thinking more and more that I will stick with registered Red Angus to start with. There are several lines that are focussed on moderate sized cattle that do well on grass that will be a good starting place for me. And I think it will be enough work to learn one breed well, withoug considering crossbreeding. After I am more sure of my footing, I may try cross breeding. I will probably try a couple of breeds - one each year, with the intent of selling all the offspring to market. Good records and pictures will then let me choose the best cross. But I think for now I'll take it one step at a time and focus on just one breed.
I certainly is an educational experience.
ANAZAZI,
I am thinking more and more that I will stick with registered Red Angus to start with. There are several lines that are focussed on moderate sized cattle that do well on grass that will be a good starting place for me. And I think it will be enough work to learn one breed well, withoug considering crossbreeding. After I am more sure of my footing, I may try cross breeding. I will probably try a couple of breeds - one each year, with the intent of selling all the offspring to market. Good records and pictures will then let me choose the best cross. But I think for now I'll take it one step at a time and focus on just one breed.
Bullseye
Well-known member
Here's a bit of recent news regarding the performance of Senepol and how the breed is being utilised in the Australia Beef Industry.
Senepol Dominate 2009 Callide Dawson Carcase Competition
In a great endorsement for the Senepol breed, 5 Star Senepol entered a draft of Senepol and Senepol cross cattle into Australia's largest carcase competition. There were 372 head of cattle entered. The awards night saw a large percentage of the major and minor ribbons going to the Senepol entries from 5 Star.
In the 100 day feedlot trial, a Senepol X Belmont entry won the weight gain section, with 2.94 kg per day gain, going in at 456 kg live weight and exiting at 750 kg, 100 days later.
The steer dressed at 404 kg, had 2 teeth, 16 mm of fat on the rump and 10 mm on the rib - gaining maximum points for fat coverage. The steer went on to gain the most points for weight gain, dressing percentage and carcase quality, with 228 points - It's nearest rival was 12 points back with 216 points.
The Maynards also won with a pen of 3 grain fed heifers, with 3 Senepol / Charolais / Belmont entries. One of these heifers in the pen of 3 was awarded the second largest weight gain for the 70 day trial, with a 2.8 kg per day gain. One heifer was awarded maximum points for marbling - 5 out of 5.
In the Grain Assisted Bullock Class, the 5 Star entries came first and third, with a couple of Senepol / Belmont cross entries. The winner was a milk teeth entry, dressing 343 kg scoring maximum fat depth with 12 mm on the rump and 10 mm on the rib.
In the Grass-fed section, the Maynards were awarded Champion Grass-fed Carcase with trade heifer with a pure Senepol, milk teeth, dressing 275 kg, 9 mm on the rump and having a healthy eye muscle of 84 square cm. She was also awarded maximum points for meat colour and texture.
The Maynards also secured a second place in the Trade Steer or Heifer section and a second placing in the Single Grain-fed Heifer Class.
With the above results, the 5 STAR OPERATION was awarded most successful exhibitor for the 2009 event.
Mr Dennis Clair the President of the Callide Dawson Carcase Committee stated that it was a definitive result for the Senepol breed to achieve such results on their first major outing in an Australian Competition.
Mr Geoff Maynard said, he was pleased to see the cross section of cattle do well across all areas, Grass and Grain, Trade and Jap Ox, Heifers and Bullocks.
http://www.senepol.com.au/carcase_comp_news.htm
Senepol Dominate 2009 Callide Dawson Carcase Competition
In a great endorsement for the Senepol breed, 5 Star Senepol entered a draft of Senepol and Senepol cross cattle into Australia's largest carcase competition. There were 372 head of cattle entered. The awards night saw a large percentage of the major and minor ribbons going to the Senepol entries from 5 Star.
In the 100 day feedlot trial, a Senepol X Belmont entry won the weight gain section, with 2.94 kg per day gain, going in at 456 kg live weight and exiting at 750 kg, 100 days later.
The steer dressed at 404 kg, had 2 teeth, 16 mm of fat on the rump and 10 mm on the rib - gaining maximum points for fat coverage. The steer went on to gain the most points for weight gain, dressing percentage and carcase quality, with 228 points - It's nearest rival was 12 points back with 216 points.
The Maynards also won with a pen of 3 grain fed heifers, with 3 Senepol / Charolais / Belmont entries. One of these heifers in the pen of 3 was awarded the second largest weight gain for the 70 day trial, with a 2.8 kg per day gain. One heifer was awarded maximum points for marbling - 5 out of 5.
In the Grain Assisted Bullock Class, the 5 Star entries came first and third, with a couple of Senepol / Belmont cross entries. The winner was a milk teeth entry, dressing 343 kg scoring maximum fat depth with 12 mm on the rump and 10 mm on the rib.
In the Grass-fed section, the Maynards were awarded Champion Grass-fed Carcase with trade heifer with a pure Senepol, milk teeth, dressing 275 kg, 9 mm on the rump and having a healthy eye muscle of 84 square cm. She was also awarded maximum points for meat colour and texture.
The Maynards also secured a second place in the Trade Steer or Heifer section and a second placing in the Single Grain-fed Heifer Class.
With the above results, the 5 STAR OPERATION was awarded most successful exhibitor for the 2009 event.
Mr Dennis Clair the President of the Callide Dawson Carcase Committee stated that it was a definitive result for the Senepol breed to achieve such results on their first major outing in an Australian Competition.
Mr Geoff Maynard said, he was pleased to see the cross section of cattle do well across all areas, Grass and Grain, Trade and Jap Ox, Heifers and Bullocks.
http://www.senepol.com.au/carcase_comp_news.htm
