What are you looking for in a breeding bull

[choward2955jd]

I was just wandering what people are looking for in a breeding bull these days and times. I have noticed lately that many breeders showing cattle are downsizing their bulls and cows in my opinion to the way they look 50 years ago. My question and I hope someone can answer it for me is (Is this the market breeding bulls should be going?).
Now i am not advertising the cattle i sell but i have had several people call me about my bulls and many of them have said (The bulls being sold in today's market are to small and their calves just do not grow fast enough). I am curious if anyone can tell me if this is true. The bulls and cows I sell have size to them and grow very fast.
It seems like the herd people are showing on the American Rancher seem to be on the same path of small framed cattle. I could be in the wrong breed but i feel that cows should have some size and bulls as well.
If you could let me know your responses I would grealty appreciate the help. I may be on the wrong path and if i am I plan on staying onthis path. I remember seeing a 2 year old bull at the North American this year that was so small and compact that he could not even walk correctly.
Thanks in advance
Chris Howard
Devoted Fullblood Chianina Breeder

 

[deenranch]

I don't mind moderate cattle. I do mind small cattle. If I go somewhere to buy a bull and he has a bunch of midgets out there, I won't buy one. But on the other hand, if they are moderate and have plenty of bone and meat, I'll definately look close....

I raise Charolais and have some commercial simmintal and simmi cross cattle.

So, my cattle are fairly big.

An old man told me one time that the air under that tall bull doesn't weigh anything. So in my opinion moderate is okay, small is light weight!!!! :2cents:

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Worth the read.

http://www.bifconference.com/bif2010/documents/08_johnson_radakovich.pdf

 

[bigbull338]

when i go to buy a reg bull,i look at his reg papers to see if he has the bloodlines i want in my herd.then i look at the bull an see if he has the spring of ribb an the depth an thickness i want.then i look at his temperment.lastly i see if i can afford the bull.

 

[showing71]

We aim for frame size 6. We tried to bring more uniformity to our entire herd and used a few smaller framed AI sires, and that brought the herd average to between a 5 - 5.5. So we're gradually bringing that closer to a 5.5 - 6. Most buyers around here want a little more frame to them, especially the yearling bull buyers.

When we purchase bulls we look at phenotype first, bloodlines second, and EPDs third.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

when i go to buy a reg bull,i look at his reg papers to see if he has the bloodlines i want in my herd.then i look at the bull an see if he has the spring of ribb an the depth an thickness i want.then i look at his temperment.lastly i see if i can afford the bull.

bout like i do,, except i start where you end and go backward

 

[dun]

We aim for frame size 6. We tried to bring more uniformity to our entire herd and used a few smaller framed AI sires, and that brought the herd average to between a 5 - 5.5. So we're gradually bringing that closer to a 5.5 - 6. Most buyers around here want a little more frame to them, especially the yearling bull buyers.

When we purchase bulls we look at phenotype first, bloodlines second, and EPDs third.

We do just a little different order. EPDs first, if they aren;t in the range I'm looking for I don;t want to waste my time. Seond is bloodlines, same deal if it's a bloodline I don;t want I'm not going to waste my time looking. Actaully 2 happens at the same time as one. Then disposition and phenotype. The first 2 I can do sitting down and it only takes acouple of minutes. The disposition and phenotype is what takes the producers time.

 

[HOSS]

I look to keep my frame sizes moderate. I consider moderate to be 1,000 to 1,300 lbs. I do admit that I have 3 or 4 that will go 1,400 lbs but they are proven mommas that wean 650 to 750 lb. calves. I try to choose a middle of the road bull. I like that 5.5 to 6 frame. I want the calves to grow fast early but moderate out later. That is one reason that I like the Gelbvieh breed as they seem to do this pretty well. My bigger cows really put away the groceries compared to some of the other more moderate cows. If they were only weaning a 550 lb calf I would cull them. As long as they are weaning 50% or more of their body weight I'll keep them. My best performing cow is a little black angus x red angus (#61) that may weigh 1,000 pounds heavy bred and soaking wet. She has had 3 calves so far and none have weighed less than 600 lbs at weaning (I wean at 6.5 to 7 months). She was a heifer that I kept out of a King Rob son that I used to have. He would produce moderate, fast growing calves and his daughters are great momma cows.

 

[Jake]

We do just a little different order. EPDs first, if they aren;t in the range I'm looking for I don;t want to waste my time. Seond is bloodlines, same deal if it's a bloodline I don;t want I'm not going to waste my time looking. Actaully 2 happens at the same time as one. Then disposition and phenotype. The first 2 I can do sitting down and it only takes acouple of minutes. The disposition and phenotype is what takes the producers time.

I will second this motion, most tried and true method for me

 

[houstoncutter]

I am a commercial guy, and most times I will be purchasing my replacement heifers. So, In that case I am looking for a high growth bull. The only time I will consider a different type of bull is if I am going to retain ownership of the calves through production. At that time I will be looking for a bull with good growth and marbling potential. Otherwise its a bull that will push those scales down

 

[Ned Jr.]

For me I really don't look for things in any particular order. When I look for a herd bull there's things they just have to have. They have to have the right pedigree, epd's, performance, markings, carcass, scrotal measurements, disposition, structure, muscling and balance. I'm sure I've left a lot of things out. They must also be out of an outstanding dam!!! I probably prefer 5.5-6 frame. I don't get to caught up in what the cows weigh. I really don't think you could get a 5.5-6 frame cow with the depth and volume I'm looking for to weigh 1,100 lbs. They got to be deep ribbed with a lot of fleshing ability and have a great udder.IMO

 

[HomePlaceAngus]

Well when buying a new herd sire, I must start with pedigree. Then EPDs and finally prototype. If I get the first two taken care of prototype will usually fall in place. As for disposition, If he doesn't have a good disposition and com when I walk in the pen with him he doesn't even get considered.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Well when buying a new herd sire, I must start with pedigree. Then EPDs and finally prototype. If I get the first two taken care of prototype will usually fall in place. As for disposition, If he doesn't have a good disposition and com when I walk in the pen with him he doesn't even get considered.

Please explain what you mean about the bull coming to you in the pen HomePlaceAngus.

Thanks,
TT

 

[3waycross]

Well when buying a new herd sire, I must start with pedigree. Then EPDs and finally prototype. If I get the first two taken care of prototype will usually fall in place. As for disposition, If he doesn't have a good disposition and com when I walk in the pen with him he doesn't even get considered.

That's strange. I want the exact opposite. At the very least I want him to move away when I approach him. I just sold the best dispositioned bull I have owned and if he had ever come to me that way I would have shipped him on the spot.

 

[SRBeef]

regarding size, it is clear to me from my own data that in a MIG/rotational grazing system in a Wisconsin cow/calf and birth to plate operation, I can raise more pounds of good, saleable, in-the-box beef PER ACRE with 1200 lb Hereford cows than I can with 1800 lb Hereford cows. I have posted my calculations here in the past.

"small" is a relative term and probably varies by breed. there are many other factors to look for in a bull than just size but to me working towards a 1200 to 1300 lb average cow weight at weaning is important to increasing profitability. A 1200lb cow who regularly weans a 600+lb 205-day calf is a profitable cow.

I want a beefy phenotype bull that produces cows like this. His steers will also likely be profitable when I market/process them at 13 months (390 days) and avg about 1050-1100 lb.

BTW for all the good discussion on this cattle board and others, I seldom read the word "PROFIT". fwiw.

Jim

 

[Nesikep]

I look at the bull, and I like to look at his calves, if he is acceptably docile (he doesn't need to come up to me, but I don't want a wild bastard), then I'll look at him closer. when we bought our gelbveih bull at 2 years old, he was a tiny guy, but he's done very well for us and I think his calves are outstanding... I can hardly look at most other animals we've had and not see hatchet-asses after I've seen his. We have large cows by most people's standards, most are frame 6-7's and usually mature in the 1500 lb range... that being said, I want them to raise 700 lb steers and 650 lb heifers without problems. If my business plan works out and I actually can get the market I'm looking for, this will work out well for me as I will feed more and more steers to about 18 months, and I've seen it time an time again (being organic with no implants), that the steer that weans at 450 lbs will be 900 and skinny the following fall, while the one who weans at 750 will be 1400 and fat... And for that 1 year period a small steer doesn't eat that much less than the big guy. I have several cows despite not being big (1200 lbs), can't raise a 500 lb calf for the 3rd one, and if calf prices weren't as good as they are (or I was short of feed), they'd be long gone as I had all 4 of my first time heifers this year raise 550 lb heifer calves. I don't mind feeding a heavy cow, she just better give me something I like by fall time.

Oh, a couple very important criteria for me are hooves and udders (hard to tell on a bull)... I'm also particular about the aesthetics of the cow as a whole

 

[HomePlaceAngus]

Sorry guys for the typo. What I meant to say was he needs to be calm when I want in the pen. Sorry

 

[CSM]

Not me, but many in my area: the first uncut male to walk through the sale ring that is black and they are done. You all make it to difficult.
CSM

 

[bcarty]

For me as a commercial guy, I look first at the frame score of the bull. I want to stay in between 50-55 cm. Second I look at the epd's. I retain my own heifers and the epds are important on both sides of the equation. I need as high a growth animal as possible with really strong maternal traits. Pedigree runs a very very close third. Mostly with the pedigree I am looking at maternal. I can tolerate a little less growth, but the future of my cowherd is in that bull, and I cannot compromise that. Disposition comes 4th (way down the list), but if a bull has any attitude at all he is crossed off. I am not about to deal with a bull that I cannot be in the field on foot right up next to him. That just is not going to happen. Phenotype comes 5th only because if the first three are in order then phenotype will take care of its self. Carcass traits come last only because I market all my calves as feeders, but when I look at the epds I will also take into account the carcass because I will be putting those genetics into my cows, and in the future I might look at retaining ownership.