Weighed my cattle his afternoon - calf % cow weights

[RD-Sam]

That big cow is worth keeping because she's the one your neighbors are going to be salivating over. What a lot of people don't realize is that just because a cow is smaller framed doesn't make her more efficient or better.

No we KNOW she is NOT more efficient because Jim has weighed her, her calves, and compared them and her to her contemporarys performance.

Sure you know on this particular cow but more often than not my biggest cows wean the biggest calves and the smallest cows generally wean the smallest. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule. I've sold 2 bulls in the last two weeks which is very unusual for this time of the year. Can't remember the last time I sold one in the fall. I generally sell them all March through early June. Both guys were old customers who hadn't bought from me the past 3 and 4 years as they wanted to try smaller framed cattle and told me mine were too big. They both just sold their calves in the past month and are going back to larger framed bulls and wanted to get the June program long yearlings before they started getting picked over.

Sounds like it didn't take them long to figure out they made a mistake. :lol2:

 

[SRBeef]

If you have excess grass and your own hay bales stacked 4 high then maybe cow size is not that important. However in my system and limited but intensively managed land my data shows clearly that a smaller cow like #66 above is much more profitable than #77.

Checking on recent slaughter cow reports at a good local market, the top has been 64 or 65 cents in recent sales. http://www.bloomingtonlivestock.com/index.cfm

So for slaughter, cow #77 at 1930 lb x $.65/lb = $1254. I have another similar heavy weight cow (#41) at 1875 lb which @ .65 = $1218. If I sell both of them after weaning for slaughter in mid November they will probably bring in at least $2400 less selling expenses. Both have had 2 calves and bred by T-21 for their 3rd calf. I am sure they are bred and will have vet preg check them with the others, pour and shots at fall workup at weaning time.

If anyone here is interested they can have them both for $2400, guaranteed bred, after weaning about 11/13 FOB SW WI. I do not want to sell just one because then I still need to make the trailer trip to market, etc. I don't mean to advertise here but I am not usually in the business of selling livestock and this is pertinent to the discussion. I have been driving all afternoon on business and thinking about this discussion much of it.

I will keep both calves since they are worth more than 1.20 to me as freezer beef. And look for one smaller frame, bred, registered heifer or cow this fall.

Best thing is I don't need to feed these big girls all winter!

Again thanks for the discussion and feedback. Selling two of theses big ones and buying one registered smaller heifer or young cow is the right thing to do in my situation.

Jim

edit: for ref #41's heifer calf this year (#4110) weighed 626 lb at 179 days old during the herd weigh-in last week with an ADG of 2.97 since late May/no creep.

 

[RD-Sam]

I doubt you will get that for them if you keep them that long, corn is rising and cattle are dropping.

 

[Herefords.US]

I doubt you will get that for them if you keep them that long, corn is rising and cattle are dropping.

Top on fat cows here is down to about 55 cents.

George

 

[SRBeef]

From my Bloomington Livestock Exchange link above, from their October 5th slaughter cattle sale:

"High Dressing Cutter/ Boning Utility Cows: 55 ~ 64"

I was thinking these two cows would be a penny above that due to condition but maybe not. And I do not want to wean them all for a month yet, so I guess I will have to see what the slaughter market is in mid-Nov. Bloomington does a very nice job. Good facility, good people, generally good cattle, open, published prices, all of which generally lead to good buyers. 759 head sold 10/5 but they are usually over 1000.

So I guess they go to Bloomington.

Thanks again.

Jim

 

[Idaman]

Historically since 1911 cattle prices have gone down between July and November. Get a monthly graph of cattle prices for the last 100 years and you will see that this phenomenon is accurate way up in the 90 percentile of the time. If you sell anything during this period you may brag about getting the top price at the local market but you are most probably getting the top price on the lowest market price of the year. That's why you really need to do a monthly graph of the prices at the place you market your cattle to see if you are selling at the top of the top or at the top of the bottom.

 

[jedstivers]

Some years around Christmas they get better on killer's because not many are being brought in.

 

[Idaman]

Some years around Christmas they get better on killer's because not many are being brought in.

We used to have a contract with a couple of NW cow killer plants to deliver our cows between Christmas and New Years for a very good premium. The reason being that there were no auction sales during that time yet the plant still needed killers.

I learned the trick in a feedlot where several slaughter plants were stockpiling cows for their use during that time. I figured that if it worked for them I had better go along.

 

[SRBeef]

Actually fat cattle futures went UP in most months with the sharp increase in corn prices on Friday (10/8) due to the USDA revising their crop figures down significantly. I know traditionally this is the low in the market but I believe things will be different with higher corn prices. Buyers know that costs to finish cattle on corn are increasing so want to line up supplies now which may at least keep cattle prices from falling too much for awhile.

Here is a link to a story about this and Fridays prices:

http://www.drovers.com/doanerc.asp?ts=dmm&pgID=755

As far as mine go, I think the savings from not feeding a couple extremely large cows over the winter carrying calves I know I won't retain if heifers is more than a couple cents a pound difference at the sale barn. Especially if I take the proceeds and reinvest them in one very good, registered (less risk and more data?), smaller frame bred heifer. Then I don't lose a year and am ahead on my breeding program.

FWIW, if we assume a cow consumes 3% of her weight per day of hay that costs $60/1500 lb bale (4 cents a pound) then that cow is consuming .03 x 1930lb x $.04 = $2.32 per day of hay. And if I have to feed her hay from Nov 1 to April 15 that is about 165 days or if taking some grazing into account I say 150 day hay feeding in Wisconsin then that big cow is costing me about $347 ($2.32/day x 150 days) in hay alone over the winter! and this doesn't count mineralyx or other costs.

Using the same numbers, my 1360 lb cow would then cost 1360lb/1930lb x $347/winter = $244 in hay to feed over the winter or $103 less than the 1930 lb cow! And they both provide the same amount of income in a similar 6 to 7 weight calf! So my net profit will increase by at least $100/calf if I replace my 1930 lb cows with 1360 lb cows as long as they both produce similar 205 day calves which I see as very likely with the right animals.

So off they (1930 lb and 1875 lb) go to Bloomington after they get the most milk and growth possible into her current calves by weaning in Nov.

Jim

 

[TexasBred]

Jim I may have overlooked it but is that "elephant" of a cow bred back?? Just curious.

 

[SRBeef]

Jim I may have overlooked it but is that "elephant" of a cow bred back?? Just curious.

Yes, TB, she is bred to my T-21 bull. I am certain but will be preg checking her along with the others at weaning/fall workup. She has not had any trouble breeding. Not excessively "fat" just BIG. Both #77 and #41 are bred to T021. Jim

 

[Idaman]

Actually fat cattle futures went UP in most months with the sharp increase in corn prices on Friday (10/8) due to the USDA revising their crop figures down significantly. I know traditionally this is the low in the market but I believe things will be different with higher corn prices. Buyers know that costs to finish cattle on corn are increasing so want to line up supplies now which may at least keep cattle prices from falling too much for awhile.

Here is a link to a story about this and Fridays prices:

http://www.drovers.com/doanerc.asp?ts=dmm&pgID=755

As far as mine go, I think the savings from not feeding a couple extremely large cows over the winter carrying calves I know I won't retain if heifers is more than a couple cents a pound difference at the sale barn. Especially if I take the proceeds and reinvest them in one very good, registered (less risk and more data?), smaller frame bred heifer. Then I don't lose a year and am ahead on my breeding program.

FWIW, if we assume a cow consumes 3% of her weight per day of hay that costs $60/1500 lb bale (4 cents a pound) then that cow is consuming .03 x 1930lb x $.04 = $2.32 per day of hay. And if I have to feed her hay from Nov 1 to April 15 that is about 165 days or if taking some grazing into account I say 150 day hay feeding in Wisconsin then that big cow is costing me about $347 ($2.32/day x 150 days) in hay alone over the winter! and this doesn't count mineralyx or other costs.

Using the same numbers, my 1360 lb cow would then cost 1360lb/1930lb x $347/winter = $244 in hay to feed over the winter or $103 less than the 1930 lb cow! And they both provide the same amount of income in a similar 6 to 7 weight calf! So my net profit will increase by at least $100/calf if I replace my 1930 lb cows with 1360 lb cows as long as they both produce similar 205 day calves which I see as very likely with the right animals.

So off they (1930 lb and 1875 lb) go to Bloomington after they get the most milk and growth possible into her current calves by weaning in Nov.

Jim

Agreed. Why not buy three 1300 lb. producers or purebreds now when they are at a low and then sell the heavies after Nov. or Dec. when they are rising and have the best of both worlds.

 

[SRBeef]

I was just out with my cattle a few minutes ago. They seem to like the music on the radio and came up to the fence next to my shed. While they were there the calves figured it was lunch time and most of them started nursing.

I snapped a picture of one of my larger (1875 lb not the elephant but close) cows nursing her 626 lb calf right next to one of my target cows #66 at 1360 lb nursing her 770 lb calf.

I love to see moderate size cows nursing big calves in the fall. A nice picture and looks like dollar signs also.

But this picture seems to pretty well illustrate the difference in productivity I was describing with the weight data above. Here is the picture:

The one on the right even looks more efficient than the one on the left, to me. She may even hit 60% before weaning. FWIW.

Jim

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Great picture!!! Sure makes your point.

 

[SRBeef]

I thought they had almost posed for me! I think the principles of size are probably about the same across breeds. Do you agree? I am not at all familiar with Simmentals. Although the cow on the left appears to me to have a little bit of something else beside Hereford in her background. Thanks for the kind words, Jeanne. Jim

 

[Douglas]

This decision got me thinking with my financial hat on.
Assuming this cow can be sold for $1100 now or later here are the present value calculation with differnt profit per calf assumptions.
1. Cow produces for 7 years and is sold for the same price as today.

Return 18.3% 9.0% 4.5%
Profit/calf 200 100 50


2. Cow produces for 4 years and is sold for the same price as today. Not much different from #1

Return 18.0% 9.0% 4.5%
Profit/calf 200 100 50

3. Cow produces for 4 years and dies.

Return -12% -31% -45%
Profit/calf 200 100 50

 

[Brandonm22]

Option 4 (the typical Brandon mistake) keep cow waaayyy too long. Last two or three calves successively below lifetime avg. When finally decide to sell old cow, her teeth are long wore out, she is 3 BCS score AND lame, wasted money medicating her for symptoms of old age, she is 2 months bred when she should be 5 months bred, cow weighs 250 lbs less than she did 2 years prior, and she brings soup prices instead of cull cow prices.

 

[SRBeef]

This decision got me thinking with my financial hat on.
Assuming this cow can be sold for $1100 now or later here are the present value calculation with differnt profit per calf assumptions.
1. Cow produces for 7 years and is sold for the same price as today.

Return 18.3% 9.0% 4.5%
Profit/calf 200 100 50


2. Cow produces for 4 years and is sold for the same price as today. Not much different from #1

Return 18.0% 9.0% 4.5%
Profit/calf 200 100 50

3. Cow produces for 4 years and dies.

Return -12% -31% -45%
Profit/calf 200 100 50

This looks very interesting. Please explain a bit more for we non-financial types. I assume this is in reference to my 1930 lb cow discussed above. In particular my calculation of $100 per calf more profit from a 1360 lb cow than a 1930 lb cow in my "purchased hay" calculation from above:

if we assume a cow consumes 3% of her weight per day of hay that costs $60/1500 lb bale (4 cents a pound) then that cow is consuming .03 x 1930lb x $.04 = $2.32 per day of hay. And if I have to feed her hay from Nov 1 to April 15 that is about 165 days or if taking some grazing into account I say 150 day hay feeding in Wisconsin then that big cow is costing me about $347 ($2.32/day x 150 days) in hay alone over the winter! and this doesn't count mineralyx or other costs.

Using the same numbers, my 1360 lb cow would then cost 1360lb/1930lb x $347/winter = $244 in hay to feed over the winter or $103 less than the 1930 lb cow! And they both provide the same amount of income in a similar 6 to 7 weight calf! So my net profit will increase by at least $100/calf if I replace my 1930 lb cows with 1360 lb cows as long as they both produce similar 205 day calves which I see as very likely with the right animals.


As I read your numbers, if I keep #66 (1360lb) for 4 or 7 years then sell her for $1100 (maybe a bit high but possible) the return on this $100 difference per calf is 9% ??? That's not bad considering what savings in the bank are bringing these days. Is my interpretation correct?

Thanks for your number analysis. Jim

edit: it is obvious that a cow dying on you is a major loss especially a big bred one. I had one go cast on me early last spring. A big one (like 77) got upside down and just died. Digs a big financial hole.

 

[Brandonm22]

edit: it is obvious that a cow dying on you is a major loss especially a big bred one. I had one go cast on me early last spring. A big one (like 77) got upside down and just died. Digs a big financial hole.

Exactly, when cows were a lot smaller and cull prices were 20 cents a pound you could risk an old old cow "dying on the place" in exchange for the chance of her producing just one more good heifer. 1500++ lb cows in a 60 cent a pound cull cow market take their last ride to the stock yard....no exceptions.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

The 60 cent cull market is rapidly becoming the 50 cent cull market!