vigor @ birth

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I'll walk out on the plank and suggest that BW is part of that genetic factor that influences vigor. Some of those little 60 pound calves seem to be able to skip walking and go straight to running. Makes tagging a little tougher at times. The larger calves going through a rougher birth in my mind definately go through a stage of being brain dead in which they are about as vigorous as road kill.

From my experience calving in bad weather- I agree..The little ones seem to be up faster- get their bellies full- and have a much better chance to live... Whenever I lose a calf- or have a dummy that I have to take in and care for due to the cold or a storm- it is often a larger sized calf...

Some of the toughest I ever saw born in terrible weather were some longhorn and longhorn X calves that were not much bigger than a big jackrabbit when born... ;-)

But did you SEE each & every birth? How long did each one take?? How tired was the dam?? I think these things affect vigor more than the actual WEIGHT of the calf. Granted, the heavier calves may very well have been the longer labor, so yes,you would correlate the slower slugish calf to the size of the calf - but in all realilty, it was the long, hard labor that made the calf weak, tired, slow.
The largest calf we ever had, back in the age of huge Simmentals, was 150#, cow spit it out standing up. Calf hardly had time to untangle his legs, when he was up & sucking.
I'm not saying BW doesnt affect vigor - but not because of the actual ###'s, it's the longer labor in most cases.
When all is equal, a birth from water sac to delivery in less than an hour, calf's vigor isn't as affected by the wt of the calf, as genetics & environment.
I SEE "most" of our births, and a long labor definately affects the calf - whether it was 70# or 100#. Yeah, yeah, there is always exceptions - but this holds true going with averages.

 

[Brandonm22]

I SEE "most" of our births, and a long labor definately affects the calf - whether it was 70# or 100#. Yeah, yeah, there is always exceptions - but this holds true going with averages.

I don't disagree with any of that; but I don't ever recall pulling a 62 lb calf, Those long hard labors that wear out the cow are USUALLY the biggest calves.

 

[Oldtimer]

I'm not saying BW doesnt affect vigor - but not because of the actual ###'s, it's the longer labor in most cases.

I pretty much agree- But whatever- it affects vigor... And when honestly reporting vigor it needs to be included....
I'd just as soon have the moderate BW (65-85Lbs)- that have a much better opportunity to have a faster labor- and survive malpresentations- which gives me a higher % of live calves- than have the high BW's ( 90+ ) that may (or may not) mean a few pounds heavier calf in the fall- but lowers the number of live calves and total pounds to sell...

I know locally as far as selling angus bulls I've seen and been told by other local breeders its getting tougher and toughter to sell the heavy BW bulls...Anything over 90 starts raising questions- and the few over 100 lbs could be the best bull on earth, but often has a tough time getting bidders sometimes..

I think much of this is due to more folks going to lower input practices, pasture calving, and the fact the average age of most ranchers is near 60- they just don't want to have to be bothered with the problems that sometimes come with big calves ...
I know I prefer a 60 lb live calf over a 100 lb dead one...

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I SEE "most" of our births, and a long labor definately affects the calf - whether it was 70# or 100#. Yeah, yeah, there is always exceptions - but this holds true going with averages.

I don't disagree with any of that; but I don't ever recall pulling a 62 lb calf, Those long hard labors that wear out the cow are USUALLY the biggest calves.

Granted, the heavier calves may very well have been the longer labor, so yes,you would correlate the slower slugish calf to the size of the calf - but in all realilty, it was the long, hard labor that made the calf weak, tired, slow.

So, yes, we are in agreement.
Oldtimer - Well, I must be older than "most ranchers" [62] - and yes, we really appreciate those moderate BW's & calves that are "struggling" to get out so they can get right up & suck. LOVE IT!!!
Have to admit it - we used to make excuses for those "slow going" lazy calves, but it's a whole new ball game now.
Not to be bragging on my Macho As U bull, but he was the first bull we used that gave us those get up & go calves. Dream On & Beef Maker, both, give us the same kind of vigor. Not that the other bulls we're using are slow like the old Simmentals - just that these 3 are exceptionally vigorous. We watch calving ease EPD's a lot closer than we used to. I like STAYING in bed & just watching. :banana:

 

[Oldtimer]

I SEE "most" of our births, and a long labor definately affects the calf - whether it was 70# or 100#. Yeah, yeah, there is always exceptions - but this holds true going with averages.

I don't disagree with any of that; but I don't ever recall pulling a 62 lb calf, Those long hard labors that wear out the cow are USUALLY the biggest calves.

Granted, the heavier calves may very well have been the longer labor, so yes,you would correlate the slower slugish calf to the size of the calf - but in all realilty, it was the long, hard labor that made the calf weak, tired, slow.

So, yes, we are in agreement.
Oldtimer - Well, I must be older than "most ranchers" [62] - and yes, we really appreciate those moderate BW's & calves that are "struggling" to get out so they can get right up & suck. LOVE IT!!!
Have to admit it - we used to make excuses for those "slow going" lazy calves, but it's a whole new ball game now.
Not to be bragging on my Macho As U bull, but he was the first bull we used that gave us those get up & go calves. Dream On & Beef Maker, both, give us the same kind of vigor. Not that the other bulls we're using are slow like the old Simmentals - just that these 3 are exceptionally vigorous. We watch calving ease EPD's a lot closer than we used to. I like STAYING in bed & just watching. :banana:

I don't know the other bulls- as I quit with the simmis years ago and don't follow them much--But I do know that a friend of mine that raises simmi and simmi angus cross bulls used Dream On for several years with very good results...Easy calving- low BW's and sold several bulls that were used for heifers...And I heard few complaints from those that used him...

And that is me- I really don't see that many calves born- as I usually only check cows twice a day if it isn't bad weather...If I do- often it is just thru the spotting scope looking up the creek ;-) ..Drive thru them after feeding in the morning and maybe again before dark and weigh and tag the calves...
With heifers it depends on what I'm doing but often it is the same altho I usually try to check 3 or 4 times a day....

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Our winter cold is a very DAMP cold. Calves don't survive very well if born outside, so I keep a pretty close eye on them. My "close up" cows are right outside my window, and I can move a cow into the barn if she shows signs of calving. Anything that looks "ready", goes in the barn before dark & is turned back out around 6am if she didn't calve. We have sooo much mud to deal with from maybe mid March to late April, this is the absolutely best time for the health of the calves - that is if they survive the first 15 minutes! :banana: By mud season, the calves know to stay high & dry instead of following mom thru the wallowing mud.