vigor @ birth

[xbred]

i know this is a broad question, but, excluding hybrid vigor, would you consider "vigor at birth" a genetic trait, a trait some bulls pass on to their calves better than others?

 

[Oldtimer]

i know this is a broad question, but, excluding hybrid vigor, would you consider "vigor at birth" a genetic trait, a trait some bulls pass on to their calves better than others?

Yep!!

 

[Northern Rancher]

Definately-there probably will never be an epd for faint heart but there sure should be.

 

[Brandonm22]

Definately-there probably will never be an epd for faint heart but there sure should be.

I have always wondered why there wasn't a calf survivability EPD. It would be VERY easy to do. All people would have to report would be 1) still births 2) calves that died in the first 3 days 3) calves that died in the first three months 4) calves born alive that required assistance (bottle, stomach tube, scour treatment, antibiotics, etc) 5) calves that survived without assistance. One of the number gurus could assign a number value to each type calf and come up with a formula pretty easy. I don't know how reliable the thing would be but it would certainly be marketable.

 

[MO_cows]

Definately-there probably will never be an epd for faint heart but there sure should be.

I have always wondered why there wasn't a calf survivability EPD. It would be VERY easy to do. All people would have to report would be 1) still births 2) calves that died in the first 3 days 3) calves that died in the first three months 4) calves born alive that required assistance (bottle, stomach tube, scour treatment, antibiotics, etc) 5) calves that survived without assistance. One of the number gurus could assign a number value to each type calf and come up with a formula pretty easy. I don't know how reliable the thing would be but it would certainly be marketable.

The breed associations that do a Complete Herd Reporting or similar registration system could do this the best because there is incentive or even a policy/rule to report ALL the calves.

Surely there has been studies done on this but I don't recall seeing any.

 

[KNERSIE]

I don't know how reliable the thing would be but it would certainly be marketable.

I like that comment, that is pretty much how I feel aboutmost of the EPD that is derived from other EPDs from the easier measurable traits.

We obviously don't have the freezing issues you guys have so I probably don't pay it enough attention, but in my observations the slowest starters are usually the very big and also the very small calves, the happy medium seems to get going faster in my observations

 

[dun]

We noticed the vigor deal several years ago when we used one particular bull. Even after a malpresentation that took the cow a while to get it straightened out the calf was on it;s feet and looking for groceries before the cow even got to her feet. All of that particular bulls calves, big, small, average, all had the same trait. Other calves are up and looking for groceries within 10-15 minutes, his were up and looking for groceries in less then 5 minutes. We've used him several more years and found the sam thing. (personally I think the vigor is about all that bull brings to the table)

 

[xbred]

the reason i brought it up is that i saw an ad that touted the vigor at birth that this bull's claves had...i always suspected that the cow and enviroment was more influential in birthing a vigorous calf, ie.prenatal nutrition, and health, and weather..I'll have to watch this in the future...

 

[Brandonm22]

the reason i brought it up is that i saw an ad that touted the vigor at birth that this bull's claves had...i always suspected that the cow and enviroment was more influential in birthing a vigorous calf, ie.prenatal nutrition, and health, and weather..I'll have to watch this in the future...

The environment has more to do with most of the traits that we measure than does the genetics. Take weaning weight for example, you can take pretty avg weaning weight EPD cattle and if the weather is perfect, you aren't overstocked, and the grass is lush and well managed and have pretty impressive weaning weights. Add creep feed feeders and you can bump that up another 50 pounds (or more). High weaning weight EPD cattle may not weigh 400 lbs grazing 100,000 acres of sparce forage in New Mexico......in fact lower EPD cattle with a hardier phenotype might outperform in those circumstances. People still select for the Weaning wt EPD though.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

xbred - we AI'd 100% of our cows for over 35 years, and I can definately say YES, the bull has a LOT to do with vigor. Not saying that environment/management doesn't play more of a role, but, in our case - environment/management was equal with lots of different bulls.

 

[xbred]

I am impressed with the knowledge on this board, both emperical and scientific..thanks

 

[alacattleman]

the worst experiance i had wont mention the breed, but the calves were the biggest dummys ive ever seen.. after calving the bull went too a friends too reside for a few days to sale time.. i would have shot before he would ever breed another it was the biggest nightmare ive ever had

 

[Brandonm22]

xbred - we AI'd 100% of our cows for over 35 years, and I can definately say YES, the bull has a LOT to do with vigor. Not saying that environment/management doesn't play more of a role, but, in our case - environment/management was equal with lots of different bulls.

I never meant to imply that there was NO genetic role, just agreeing with x-bred that environment plays a larger role. Clearly there are differences between bulls, implying that there is a genetic component in vigor.

 

[Frankie]

I do believe there's a genetic component to vigor, but experience shows there are other things involved in whether a calf gets up and nurses. The last calf we pulled here laid there for close to an hour before he even tried to get up. His momma licked him all over and stood patiently. After close to an hour, he just stood up. He didn't do all that wobbly, fall down stuff, he just got up. I think he was just worn out from being born. We've had some of the biggest calves ever born here this year and they did fine.

 

[KMacGinley]

I have noticed a big difference with the Ohlde type bulls, mine at least sire very vigorous calves.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

xbred - we AI'd 100% of our cows for over 35 years, and I can definately say YES, the bull has a LOT to do with vigor. Not saying that environment/management doesn't play more of a role, but, in our case - environment/management was equal with lots of different bulls.

I never meant to imply that there was NO genetic role, just agreeing with x-bred that environment plays a larger role. Clearly there are differences between bulls, implying that there is a genetic component in vigor.

and I didn't take it that way. We're in sync - lots of things affect vigor.

 

[ANAZAZI]

genetics will play a very important role in the vigour; always has!

 

[Jake]

I'll walk out on the plank and suggest that BW is part of that genetic factor that influences vigor. Some of those little 60 pound calves seem to be able to skip walking and go straight to running. Makes tagging a little tougher at times. The larger calves going through a rougher birth in my mind definately go through a stage of being brain dead in which they are about as vigorous as road kill.

 

[novaman]

I'll walk out on the plank and suggest that BW is part of that genetic factor that influences vigor. Some of those little 60 pound calves seem to be able to skip walking and go straight to running. Makes tagging a little tougher at times. The larger calves going through a rougher birth in my mind definately go through a stage of being brain dead in which they are about as vigorous as road kill.

I've seen plenty of smaller calves show little vigor. I agree that larger calves can have problems getting going if birthing was difficult but I don't see any correlation between vigor and BW. If we would correlate vigor with birthing ease I would say MAYBE.

 

[Oldtimer]

I'll walk out on the plank and suggest that BW is part of that genetic factor that influences vigor. Some of those little 60 pound calves seem to be able to skip walking and go straight to running. Makes tagging a little tougher at times. The larger calves going through a rougher birth in my mind definately go through a stage of being brain dead in which they are about as vigorous as road kill.

From my experience calving in bad weather- I agree..The little ones seem to be up faster- get their bellies full- and have a much better chance to live... Whenever I lose a calf- or have a dummy that I have to take in and care for due to the cold or a storm- it is often a larger sized calf...

Some of the toughest I ever saw born in terrible weather were some longhorn and longhorn X calves that were not much bigger than a big jackrabbit when born... ;-)