What's hybrid vigor? This baby is PUREBRED ANGUS!

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Angus Rocks

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wbvs58 said:
Angus Rocks said:
I won't mention any names but have heard that there are some seedstock Angus producers that have crossbred and papered them as purebred Angus cattle. Just to get the heterosis and performance of the crossbreed.
Well that is a bit of a hollow statement lacking facts. I think you need to name and give a bit of evidence. You are just rumour mongering.

Ken

That may be but the source I heard it from I believe to be reliable but I don't have actual factual proof.

Some of the seedstock producers raise two and three different breeds how do you know they ain't crossing things up to help their numbers some?
 

Bright Raven

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Angus Rocks said:
wbvs58 said:
Angus Rocks said:
I won't mention any names but have heard that there are some seedstock Angus producers that have crossbred and papered them as purebred Angus cattle. Just to get the heterosis and performance of the crossbreed.
Well that is a bit of a hollow statement lacking facts. I think you need to name and give a bit of evidence. You are just rumour mongering.

Ken

That may be but the source I heard it from I believe to be reliable but I don't have actual factual proof.

Some of the seedstock producers raise two and three different breeds how do you know they ain't crossing things up to help their numbers some?

If they are, they are not only corrupt, they are naive and foolish. If someone does some parentage or pedigree checking and provide documentation that they are misrepresenting their products, their credibility is out the window.

Having said that, what would you cross Angus to that would not be visible to a well trained eye? I know Fire Sweep could tell which of my Simmentals were percentage Angus the first time she saw them. I was impressed. I think the phenotype alone would betray them to a well trained eye.
 

TennesseeTuxedo

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Bright Raven said:
Angus Rocks said:
wbvs58 said:
Well that is a bit of a hollow statement lacking facts. I think you need to name and give a bit of evidence. You are just rumour mongering.

Ken

That may be but the source I heard it from I believe to be reliable but I don't have actual factual proof.

Some of the seedstock producers raise two and three different breeds how do you know they ain't crossing things up to help their numbers some?

If they are, they are not only corrupt, they are naive and foolish. If someone does some parentage or pedigree checking and provide documentation that they are misrepresenting their products, their credibility is out the window.

Having said that, what would you cross Angus to that would not be visible to a well trained eye? I know Fire Sweep could tell which of my Simmentals were percentage Angus the first time she saw them. I was impressed. I think the phenotype alone would betray them to a well trained eye.

Someone would be able to tell and like you said the evidence would come out eventually and destroy their operation.

Rumor mongering at best.
 

76 Bar

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What is the genetic input percentage that qualifies/determines an animal to be classified as purebred Simmental? Put another way...how much can you dilute Full Bloods and qualify for Purebred status.
Edited to add, I abhor the bastardization of the long standing terminology of "purebred" and its connotation, i.e. sans blood outside of the breed. Not picking on Simmental's per se. Plenty open herd books do likewise.
 

Bright Raven

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76 Bar said:
What is the genetic input percentage that qualifies/determines an animal to be classified as purebred Simmental? Put another way...how much can you dilute Full Bloods and qualify for Purebred status.
Edited to add, I abhor the bastardization of the long standing terminology of "purebred" and its connotation, i.e. sans blood outside of the breed. Not picking on Simmental's per se. Plenty open herd books do likewise.

As I understand it, in the Amercan Simmental Association, to be Listed on the certificate as "Purebred" they must be bred up to approaching 100% Simmental. That does not equate to them being "Fullbloods". In other words, "Purebreds" can have other "percentages" or breeds in their pedigree. If I remember correctly, they reach Purebred at anything above 7/8 th Simmental. Jeanne or Fire Sweep would know this better than I and can hopefully put the fine tune on my information.
 

Bright Raven

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TennesseeTuxedo said:
We all know there are things lurking in the Simmental woodpile.

Nothing to hide there. It is an open herd book. Anything 7/8 and under is a percentage registered beast.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Yup - we (Simmental) openly mix breeds. In the beginning, cattle had to be 15/16 to be considered PUREBRED. Then just the bulls had to be 15/16 - females 7/8. Now all 7/8 are labeled PUREBRED. Must have 5 generations of Fullblood pedigree to be considered FULLBLOOD. Used to be just had to be from imported bloodlines, until they proved the IMPORTED cattle were crossbreds!!! Sneekie people!
I was going to say, people are naive if they don't think there isn't mixed breeds in the Purebred industry from "back in the day". I don't think many would be doing it now with all the DNA testing. Much too easy to be caught now.
 

southernultrablack

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Anyone read the story of Big Mac? The Angus steer that was really a Charlois, shown at the Western Stock Show. I know that he was a steer, but I’d venture a guess and say shady things happen in breeding animals also.
 

sim.-ang.king

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I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:
 

Herefords.US

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sim.-ang.king said:
I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:
Obviously, some didn't.

There have been some interesting DNA studies done in recent years. One study shows that Lents Anxiety 4th Herefords compare very closely to the "original Hereford" population in England. The Line 1 herd at Fort Keogh only varies slightly, but the "mainstream" North American Hereford sample greatly varied from its "original" English counterpart.

Some more details, like the majority of that mainstream "departure" occurred after the early/mid 70s.

Additional information is supposed to be in the works, but is slow in coming.

Bottom line, as I understand it, is North American Herefords largely aren't "Hereford" anymore.
 

Ky hills

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Herefords.US said:
sim.-ang.king said:
I always wondered how western Herefords could be on open range for a 100 years with long horns, and Spanish cattle, and magically come out of it as "purebred."
Makes one wonder... :lol:
Obviously, some didn't.

There have been some interesting DNA studies done in recent years. One study shows that Lents Anxiety 4th Herefords compare very closely to the "original Hereford" population in England. The Line 1 herd at Fort Keogh only varies slightly, but the "mainstream" North American Hereford sample greatly varied from its "original" English counterpart.

Some more details, like the majority of that mainstream "departure" occurred after the early/mid 70s.

Additional information is supposed to be in the works, but is slow in coming.

Bottom line, as I understand it, is North American Herefords largely aren't "Hereford" anymore.

I think it naïve to think that a departure couldn't happen. That time frame of the 70's sounds very logical, with the arrival and subsequent rise in popularity of the various continental breeds. I have stated before that a neighbor that is an Angus fanatic vehemently denies any outside influence in Angus stating his theory of breeding long bone to long bone thus giving the fast rise of large framed Angus. In my thinking it would have taken a fairly large population of outliers and a concerted effort to use them to accomplish that and AI in beef wasn't that common place then I don't think. The same individual that made those statements about Angus changing but remaining pure, boasted that Herefords were impure.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Glad to hear some talking about the "impurities". I am well aware of all the "mixing" back in the 70's. Some on here like to bash the Simmental breed because we have other breeds in our pedigrees - but we do it openly & legally LOL LOL
Back then it was inevitable. All the new breeds came in and were "huge" compared to the British breeds. We were getting 200# (or more) heavier weaning weights. That's a lot of money on the table (or NOT on the table).
But, I really don't think many, if any, breeders are sneaking other breeds into their programs now. They have benefited from some "new blood" in the past and it has carried through making some better in the long run. MHO
 

76 Bar

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Trip down memory lane...
https://www.lautnerfarms.com/from-big-to-small-to-big-to-small-part-3-of-a-pictorial-history-of-cattle-over-the-years/
 

Bright Raven

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76 Bar said:
Trip down memory lane...
https://www.lautnerfarms.com/from-big-to-small-to-big-to-small-part-3-of-a-pictorial-history-of-cattle-over-the-years/

Very interesting. Amazing how big some of those frames are.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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LOL - I had some that were off the frame chart! I can remember we always shaved the bellie bald because you wanted them to APPEAR as tall as possible. :shock:
Not the kind of cattle I like (or liked at the time) but they were what I got paid the most money for. I "LOVE" the style of cattle we are at now.
 

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