Veterinarians and why you don't use them

[highgrit]

Our DMV can and will palpate, but he doesn't AI. Also be able to do breeding and soundness examines. I think that could be something else one could do as a DMV to earn and get more clients. I would think the more you can and will do the better off you will be. Just be caring and work hard you'll be fine.

 

[TexasBred]

MM your comment about "knowing just enough about nutrition to get by" makes you "just another veterinarian". 99% know less about nutrition than the average poster on here. But I wish you well.

 

[milkmaid]

But TB- what I'm hearing from you is that I need to know nutrition to the level of a nutritionalist. Why?

Dairies, feedlots, etc employ a nutritionalist to formulate their feed rations. I ought to be able to determine if the ration has serious errors in it (eg when looking over herd records to determine what caused a "wreck" on an operation), but I still think people go to their nutritionalist for nutrition/feeding questions, and their veterinarian for disease/health questions. Can you expand on your thoughts?

 

[hillsdown]

But TB- what I'm hearing from you is that I need to know nutrition to the level of a nutritionalist. Why?

Dairies, feedlots, etc employ a nutritionalist to formulate their feed rations. I ought to be able to determine if the ration has serious errors in it (eg when looking over herd records to determine what caused a "wreck" on an operation), but I still think people go to their nutritionalist for nutrition/feeding questions, and their veterinarian for disease/health questions. Can you expand on your thoughts?

We use the same nutritionist that we had when we owned the dairy . The only time we ever involved Dr U in the nutrition side when dairy farming was when we had some very strange occurrences and were trying to rule out certain things. I do not expect my vet to be an expert in this field , although he is very knowledgeable because he grew up on a dairy and spent countless hours working there , there are much more important medical areas that I would rather a veterinarian spend his/her time learning and honing their skills in.
Jmho :2cents:

 

[SRBeef]

MM I am on the other side of your question. I wouldn't think of NOT having a vet out. I have always stressed preventative medicine with people (my family and business employees) AND, for my past 7 years, with cattle. With people it is definitely cheaper in the long run to keep people healthy rather than treating them when they get sick. My MD daughter does the same in her family practice. I believe the same thing is true with cattle.

With cattle there is the additional factor that as a beginner I really don't know much about them. I've been in row crops for many years - but not cattle. I am a smaller but growing operation. Aren't most cow-calf operations under 50 or 100 cows?

My vet has a very reasonable travel charge as in my area distances are not the problem they are in some other areas.

He is older, has cattle of his own and is a good teacher as well as a good doctor. He has taught me a lot about handling cattle as well as cattle health.

We schedule two vet visits to the farm a year - one in the spring a few weeks after the last calf is born and one in the fall at weaning time. In the spring we run the whole herd through the chute including the new calves. He cuts the bull calves and calves and cows all get appropriate shots - whatever he recommends. The way he cuts the calves is very clean. He has a couple special tools to make the cuts. I have never had one get an infection and they heal very quickly and get back to gaining weight.

In the fall visit he preg checks all the females. That alone is worth the cost of his visits for the year. Carrying on open female over the winter and through to spring to find out she's open is not cheap at current hay prices. Finding one open cow about pays for his visits and services. And that is not something I expect to be able to do. In the fall all cattle including the bulls (but not including any steers to be processed) get poured and shots he suggests. He preg checks first so that any open females get nothing done so they are clean when shipped to the sale barn slaughter sale the next day. This also saves money.

During his visits he just looks my cattle over as they go through the chute and makes suggestions on which ones might be worth retaining and which ones not. He looks at feet, eyes, etc.

I think of my total annual vet costs in terms dollars per head per year. My total vet expenses for the past three years have been under $30 per head per year. And the preventive medicine approach means I shouldn't see him except for those two visits. With a good relationship he and his staff quickly reply if i have any telephone questions. During his visits he takes the time to answer any questions I might have.

With fewer beef cattle and dairy cows in our area as more pastures go to corn and beans my vet says that they (he and his partner vet) are doing more cat and dog work than in the past.

I suggest that part of your job as a vet is to convince cattlemen that preventive medicine is the lowest cost approach. I really appreciate my vet. I almost never have a sick animal - really can't remember the last one.

Good luck in your education and profession.

Jim

 

[TexasBred]

But TB- what I'm hearing from you is that I need to know nutrition to the level of a nutritionalist. Why?

Dairies, feedlots, etc employ a nutritionalist to formulate their feed rations. I ought to be able to determine if the ration has serious errors in it (eg when looking over herd records to determine what caused a "wreck" on an operation), but I still think people go to their nutritionalist for nutrition/feeding questions, and their veterinarian for disease/health questions. Can you expand on your thoughts?

You don't have to be a nutritionist but take more than one course which is typical. True feedlots and larger dairies will have a nutritionist on staff or on retainer. We little guys don't, so we often rely or at least ask our vet questions about nutrition becasue we don't have a clue where a nutritionist is that gives "free advice" or has time for the small operator. Just one man's opinion. ;-)

 

[Anonymous]

Great points tb and srb. This is turning into an interesting topic.

 

[Sir Loin]

MM,
Re: vets being a nutritionist ?

I'm in your camp on that one.
I see no reason for it in today's times, beyond having the basic knowledge.
As has been said, the big boys have their own nutritionist if they grind/mix their own.

The rest of us should be able to rely on the nutritionist at the point of manufacturing who formulated the feed and put the tag on the bag or the feed in the bulk bin.



SL

 

[cow pollinater]

The problem with nutrisionists is that there are good ones and bad ones and their job performance affects everything the cow does. Since most people really don't have a good handle on nutrition and its effects, it's easy for a bad nutritionist to blame problems on other sources and they can usually get away with it for quite a while. I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect a vet to have a good enough handle on nutrition to be able to tell if a nutritionist is doing their job or not.

 

[MistyMorning]

Interesting way to start a post, isn't it?

So I'm taking a herd production medicine class and one of the things we've been discussing recently is why producers (beef, dairy, feedlot, hobby, large scale, etc) are using veterinarians less than in the past. And of course- the class has also been discussing how veterinarians have to approach the changing market in order to still work as veterinarians. I thought that CT would be a great place to pose my questions, since there's a lot of folks on here who either don't use a vet, or use one after consulting CT. :lol:

I try to manage most health issues myself, but when something is beyond my abilities I will call a vet, we will discuss whats going on, and if necesary, they will do a farm call.

Tell me... why do you come here with your veterinary questions? no available veterinarian? incompetent veterinarian? cost? quicker? better answers? variety of responses? second opinion? better explanations with the answers?

I don't come here for veterinary questions, although I will read threads that discuss others issues in an attempt to learn more. Most of the time if I have a vet type question I call dun. If he is either to crabby to talk to me or otherwise engaged I will call a LA vet. I use two different ones, the first is hard to get ahold of as she is an embroytic vet with our local University extension and she has that herd to manage as well as she travels a lot. She has done quite a bit of AI and preg testing for me. The other is a group of four vets that will do farm calls as needed.

What would your veterinarian have to do for you to feel it's worth your while to call him/her with your questions?

All of the vets that I have used for the cattle have been very forthcoming with ideas and information that's why I will call them for a consult.

There's some discussion in the veterinary world about charging regular clients a flat fee per head (eg $1/cow/month) and they get A, B, and C veterinary services provided for their herd (eg providing vaccinations, preg checks, consultation). Think of it as a Herd Health Program you'd sign up for and you can talk to your veterinarian as needed. Some veterinarians have implemented this, and both they and their clients like it. From CT's perspective... does this type of arrangement interest you? why or why not?

I like this idea a lot, like others have previously stated, it goes to good herd health.

The other concept that's been talked about extensively in the veterinary world is consultation charges. For instance, feedlots, swine operations, large dairies, usually have a consultant on staff. Not much need for a veterinarian to do procedures as most people are perfectly capable of dehorning, castrating, etc. Instead, veterinarians are giving advice on decreasing incidence of DOAs, mastitis, acidosis, etc or are called in to solve "wrecks." Lawyers, accountants, etc charge consultation fees; veterinarians are starting to follow the other professions and not give away free advice, esp when advice/information makes up the majority of the work they're doing.

How do CT members feel about paying for consultation? how would you decide whether something warrants consultation, and how much you'd be willing to pay for it? how would you decide who you're willing to consult with?

As stated above, I have had consultations on the phone with my vets, they have never charged! Would I pay it? Yes, I think it would be fair as they take a lot of time and call back with additional information as needed.

There was a study done recently where they concluded veterinarians wanted to give their clients more advice on improving the health/management of their herd, and ranchers wanted to talk to their veterinarians more about how to improve the health of their herd... but neither was happening. Do you folks agree that you'd like to talk to your vet more, or are you happy with the way things are right now?

I liked the idea of classes some of you discussed in the previous threads. The local University extension does some of that and they are well attended.

I've heard quite a bit from the veterinary side. What I'm interested in right now is the rancher/farmer side of the equation. I want to hear your thoughts. Opinions, constructive criticism, vents, advice, etc all welcomed. Thanks.

Your welcome kiddo! Now get back to the books!

 

[HOSS]

Fortunatley I am surrounded by several vets that do LA stuff. 4 are pretty good at it too. I have found that each has their better points and I use them accordingly. One is usually cheaper but busier and harder to get a farm visit squeezed in. He is very hard to get information out of, not because he is being a jerk but because he just doesn't talk much. He is very good at foot problems, palpation etc. He did diagnose my injured bull as hopeless. A second opinion and a BSE found him sound and he is doing his job breeding cows fine. Another vet I use is VERY good with information and will spend as long as it takes to talk me through any issues. She specializes in repro work and is in very high demand for embryo transfers (she is flown down to Texas every year to do ET work on whitetailed deer at some of the big deer ranches and she also gets flown down to South America to perform ET's on some big ranches down there). She is located 4 miles from me and she has indoor LA working facilities, hydraulic squeeze and flip table so I bring the worst cases to her. She also does a really nice job of community involvement by having 2 open house events every year and offering free seminars on cattle health. The 3rd vet I use is a "road" vet. She has no clinic and only does farm visits in her well stocked truck. She is a tiny little woman but very efficient and fairly reasonable. The only issue is availability as she covers several counties.

I try to do what I can by myself but over the years of trying to improve my herd as much as possible via A.I. and the purchase of quality stock my investment in these animals continues to grow as well as their value. I don't like to take too many chances of losing one due to my limited knowledge / capability.

My advice for verteranarians is you will retain more customers by sharing information than you will lose from the customer doing it themselves. Sharing information helps the cattleman recognize the problems before they get too advanced and the vet can be called BEFORE it gets to a mercy kill situation.

 

[TexasBred]

The problem with nutrisionists is that there are good ones and bad ones and their job performance affects everything the cow does. Since most people really don't have a good handle on nutrition and its effects, it's easy for a bad nutritionist to blame problems on other sources and they can usually get away with it for quite a while. I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect a vet to have a good enough handle on nutrition to be able to tell if a nutritionist is doing their job or not.

The one thing a good nutritionist would love to say quite often but dares not is "poor management". You can bust your buns everyday for some people and still end up with poor results. The don't mind paying you good money.....they just have a hard time following instructions.

MM....come on down here...we can use you:
http://www.texastribune.org/2012/04/01/ ... hers-vets/

 

[bse]

I guess after reading this thread i am truly lucky to have the vet i have i can call him anytime to get answers no charge i can send him pictures of whats going on and he will tell me how to treat it or bring her in. He puts on a few little classes free of charge like palpating and the importance of it and people learn and let him come palpate the cows and it opens the door for more work. He has a drug rep or someone sponsor the meal and folks will turn out, if he charged for this nobody around here would go to learn anything, but give them a free meal and they will drive 50 miles for it. So maybe little things like that can generate work it doesnt always have to be about a charge.

 

[Dave]

I have a pretty good relationship with my vet. Actually with two different vets.

The main one I use comes from a clinic that has 6 vets. Two large animal, three small animal, and one guy who does both. The vet who I use out of this office is also the vet at the local salebarn. If I need to pick his mind I do it at the saleyard. There is always some down time for him there and I figure it is a good time to ask questions. He is a very good individual to work with. I recommend him to any one who asks about a vet. The down side of calling him is the cost. A $40 farm call plus $90 an hour and drugs. I have to ask myself if the vet cost will be more than the cow is worth.

The second one I work with operates a large animal service out of his home. He mostly works with dairies. He lives less than 3 miles from me. He also teaches part time at a local college. He actually comes a picks my mind for his teaching job more than I pick his mind for veteranary stuff. Downside again is the cost. He doesn't bill. It is payment at the time of service. And he whines a lot. There is about 20 feet of mud that you have to walk through to get to the chute area. Everytime he is there he whines about walking through the mud. Other people say he whines and complains at their farms too

 

[Nite Hawk]

MM in general we don't have an over supply of L. Animal vets north of the Border, if anything an under supply which of course drives up the prices of services. I do realize that they must make a living and pay off their debts. Because of the high prices of services in our area, we must almost always decide the value of the animal against the price of the vet serices before we even make a call the prices are so high. Often it will cost more than the animal is worth, even a decent valued animal.
For instance years ago we were having some family health issues, so I sold a very nice heifer alone with the agreement that the calf would be raised to weaning age and returned to me as my own. The new owner of the heifer wasn't too knowledgeable how animal health or vets worked, and the calf got sick, and he never told me, but called the vet out, who charged him an arm and a leg to treat some scours.
The other person "swallowed" the bill, but then one day an old retired dairy farmer was looking at the calf and announced that the calf had mange. A call to the vet told him it was going to cost $80 for a skin scrape and medicine, which the other fellow couldn't handle and finally phoned me.
I was very annoyed to say the least. I went down to our local vet and bought some ivomec and a syringe for the high price of about $1.75 . The calf was cured with no problems for a measly $1.75 versus $80... :secret:
In those days they would pull a dose out of a bottle instead of selling you the whole bottle.
Needless to say I was very angry about the price gouging of the other vet on an unknowledgable individual. When one lives on a limited income it makes unforseen expenses difficult.
If the old dairy farmer said the calf had mange I believed him, he had been around alot of years and seen alot of things...
That said I have had good vets who were reasonable and were willing to give you advice, and charge reasonably.. :tiphat:
MM send some of your extra vets north of the Border, into the interior, we can used them.
Years ago in one area we lived, the nearest vet was 80 miles one way, and he was the only vet around. It is a bit better now, but still not good.

 

[HOSS]

I guess after reading this thread i am truly lucky to have the vet i have i can call him anytime to get answers no charge i can send him pictures of whats going on and he will tell me how to treat it or bring her in. He puts on a few little classes free of charge like palpating and the importance of it and people learn and let him come palpate the cows and it opens the door for more work. He has a drug rep or someone sponsor the meal and folks will turn out, if he charged for this nobody around here would go to learn anything, but give them a free meal and they will drive 50 miles for it. So maybe little things like that can generate work it doesnt always have to be about a charge.

bse....I would love to attaend one of his palpating classes even if there is a charge. Can you pm me any details? Thanks

 

[Crazy Farmgirl]

I do most all of my own "vet" work, vaccinations, castrating, dehorning, worming(including fecals), blood drawing, IV's, illness treatment ect. simply because I can and it keeps my money in my pocket. My maintenance and treatment plans were created with the help of my vet and from many experienced farmers in the area. I won't hesitate to call the vet when needed but if I can handle it myself I will. If I am stumped or unsure I will call someone, depending on the situation either a vet or experienced farmer and also do my own research. My biggest issue since I have several different species here is finding a Vet that is competent with all of them (cattle, goats & hogs), I'm not expecting they specialize in each but good working knowledge.

I live in a VERY rural area and there is only one vet that is close, she will do farm calls but doesn't like to and her fees and attitude reflect that, she also has a "pet mentality". Thinks that all animals are pets and that, like her dog and cat customers, I should be willing to do/pay whatever it takes to resolve the issue at hand. I care for my animals but they are livestock and this is a business and like it or not there has to be a value assigned to each animal and if "fixing" the problem will cost more than the value of the animal then sometimes you have to accept the loss and invest the money into other areas that will benefit the business. She also feels that ONLY vets should be treating animals, not farmers, and don't even think of suggesting something that is "off label" use.Needless to say I don't know any farmers in my area that use her, unless they're in a pinch.

I did have 2 vets that I had used frequently when I first started here, both older gentlemen that were not close to me (one 50 miles and the other about 80) but had other customers in the area and would try to pool the visits to the area and then would split the mileage charges between us. Both were very knowledgeable and more than willing to answer questions and happy to show me how to do most anything I asked.

Unfortunately the one that was closest retired and a young couple (both vets) took over his practice, I had the man here a couple times and was not impressed! Prices doubled, no off label use of anything and every ailment needed the most expensive drug on the market and the last straw was being told that I was going to kill my goats by giving rumensin which was ONLY for ruminants! :shock:

The other gentleman has since gotten all of my business and has been great! He is very busy (aside from his practice he is an adjunct professor at MSU and also has his own farm) but you would hardly know it. He readily gave me his personal cell and home number and assured me not to be affraid to call anytime, which I have a few times and he either answered or call back timely and answered all my questions/ directed treatment needed then called back later to make sure all was going good and never charged me a dime. He is also more than happy to instruct/show me how to do anything I feel comfortable doing. One thing I really like is that he does not try to push the newest greatest drugs unless they are clearly needed, his philosophy is that using the tried and true until they are not effective to reduce drug resistance. He also understands that because of my location and knowing my capabilities that he can talk me through most anything faster than he could drive here and do it himself or that I at least can do as much as I can to help the animal and him until he does get here. His prices are more than reasonable (farm call $45 + $1.50/mile for anything over 50 miles from his office) and has a webstore through his office website that I can order any meds that I need (OTC & Rx) and get them delivered. He has had several classes that I have attended, generally does several a year and has beginner or advanced at separate times so the info is tailored to the attendees. When he retires I'm screwed!

I think a consultation fee is certainly a valid option, I don't always need a Vet to come out but understand that his/her time, just like mine, is valuable and taking whatever time needed to answer my questions over the phone and saving me time and money are certainly worth a reasonable fee.

 

[milkmaid]

The logic on nutrition does make sense. Appreciate the input. What other things would you folks say your veterinarian doesn't know as much about as you'd like him/her to know?

 

[dun]

Too many of the vets are all hurry and HURRAH with the cattle. They need to learn calm handling techniques.

 

[milkmaid]

Another thought. How would you like your veterinarian to inform you that there is now a consultation charge?

I think that many veterinarians don't spend much time on the farm, because they either have another farm to get to (they're busy) or else they have the impression that the client doesn't want them to spend any more time than necessary on the place. Think about it- if the veterinarian is charging per hour, and starts the clock when they come up the driveway, then the client is paying for work, idle chitchat, or useful information. Everything that veterinarian says or does you're paying for. If a client isn't interested in information, or doesn't act like they're interested in information, then the veterinarian assumes they should get off the place as quickly as possible after they've done their work.

I know my dairy boss gets a little antsy when the vet stops to talk, even if he's supplying useful information. So is it better for a vet to have a farm call + per head charge, or farm call + hourly rate? Perhaps it depends on what you want out of your veterinarian?