Veterinarians and why you don't use them

[Nite Hawk]

Yes people should be warned if there is a consultation fee. I know of a situation where there had never been a phone consultation fee, and a child talked to a vet concerning their 4-H lamb which was in bad shape ( it did live due to serious care) Nothing was ever said, but when the parent went to buy medicines they were informed they owed $40 for a phone consultation fee.
It was paid, but with a firm note that when a child was spoken to, and a fee was going to be charged, the parent or guardian should have been informed first before the vet spoke to the child,- remember there had never been fees before this time so it was totally unexpected..

 

[Dave]

With my vet who charges by the hour we get the job done so he can get to his next job. If there is usefull information that I need to know or questions I want to ask I don't mind paying. But we don't talk about the elk hunting or how the cougars did in the apple cup (even though that is real important to both of us). We can have those discussions over lunch at the salebarn when it is not costing either of us.

 

[Jogeephus]

What would your veterinarian have to do for you to feel it's worth your while to call him/her with your questions?

I have the problem people picking me for advice all the time with no money. Stuff like this eats your time up so I understand how a vet feels. That said, if my vet sent me a bill for talking to him that would be the last check he ever got from me but I don't bother him with BS. To me, I've learned its better to just say that I cannot give the answer without looking at it in person and ask if they want me to come out. This weeds out the time wasters and deadbeats.

There's some discussion in the veterinary world about charging regular clients a flat fee per head (eg $1/cow/month) and they get A, B, and C veterinary services provided for their herd (eg providing vaccinations, preg checks, consultation). Think of it as a Herd Health Program you'd sign up for and you can talk to your veterinarian as needed. Some veterinarians have implemented this, and both they and their clients like it. From CT's perspective... does this type of arrangement interest you? why or why not?

I believe if you do the math on that you'd starve or work yourself to an early grave and never have a life. You can't make $50/hour doing work that someone can get a semi-knowledgable person to do for $10/hour. IMO, I see you competing with the Extension, paravets, 4-H advisors, Young Farmer advisors, bar-room experts and just the average idiot that is out there. My father was a LA vet and I was his helper ever since I could hold a flashlight so I'm familiar with the midnight calls where you drive two hours to pull a calf that the farmer had worked on all afternoon but only calls you when he can't pull it with the tractor. I've seen these people refuse to pay their bill because by the time we got there the cow was dead and in his opinion we didn't do anyhing. No, I wouldn't want to be giving shots, palpating and pulling calves for a buck a month per head. Those small producers would eat your lunch. Do the math on a 25 head operation.

No. I'd look at what I have that your outside competion cannot provide and that IMO is an overall herd health plan for a fee. Any extra calls would be charged as such. Any consulting would be on site because how can you tell someone what's wrong without putting your eyes on the problem - and you'd be liable if you gave misinformation would you not? I think you should strive toward building a herd health program with the larger producers a retainer type arrangement and leave the small stuff to people who don't mind chasing butterflies. JMO

 

[milkmaid]

Jo- I'm not sure what a vet would charge a small operation as a yearly fee. The $1/hd or $2/hd was what vets actually are charging on the 5,000 cow dairies. It does pencil out there.

>>No. I'd look at what I have that your outside competion cannot provide and that IMO is an overall herd health plan for a fee. Any extra calls would be charged as such. Any consulting would be on site because how can you tell someone what's wrong without putting your eyes on the problem - and you'd be liable if you gave misinformation would you not? I think you should strive toward building a herd health program with the larger producers a retainer type arrangement and leave the small stuff to people who don't mind chasing butterflies. JMO.<<

That makes sense. I agree with you on all counts. Thanks Jo.

 

[SRBeef]

The "flat fee" idea has me thinking. I'm spending about $30/head/year for 2 preventive medicine visits, preg check, cutting the calves, pour twice, vet supplies all materials, I help run them thru.

What about an annual per head fee for complete preventive medicine/normal stuff? I would think on a contract $25/head would be attractive and easy to justify in a cow-calf operation. just a thought.

 

[regolith]

The vet clinic I most enjoyed working with in the past would make a point of phoning periodically to ask how things were and offer help. I know for sure they got work out of doing that, but I appreciated the way that clinic worked - I liked that if I called into town they offered a hot drink when you turned up and if one of the vets was around they'd pop down for a chat. I especially liked that if I was out of mastitis meds or anything of the sort I could call them and it would be in my mailbox the next morning - closer to town where I am now, but I wish I could do that still.
These guys charged by the hour. They did routine work very fast. Another vet I worked with a couple years back told me his clinic also charged by the hour and on the large farms if he was foot trimming the farm staff would have the next two cows lined up and feet lifted for him so he wasn't wasting any time. I personally feel if I'm paying by the hour and the vet is giving me useful information or even just passing the time of day, it's money well spent... but then, I don't see other humans on a regular basis.

The vet I work with now is like that but he works out of a large clinic, it's a personal thing I think not the clinic policy. He always takes time when he sees me to ask how things are and discuss problems. This is a case of a competent vet who hasn't been of much use to the problems I've encountered on this farm, possibly because the problems are just too big or too unusual to be resolved without a lot of money and investigation. As it turns out, second year on the farm has seen most of the issues evaporate, a lot of it due to better feeding I suspect.
We're short of good LA vets in NZ as well btw.
Most farms will know what their animal health cost is per cow per year. If you wanted to have a sort of 'insurance' fee for herd cover it could be close to that average in the expectations that some years the farmer will get great value for money and the other years the vet will get well paid. My heifers are grazing with a vet-supervised business who take care of all health problems and for me, that is great peace of mind. I pay the cost of vaccinations that I ask for and an annual health fee and if any of the heifers have issues they are dealt with. I don't pay for preg checking but clients who want their heifers checked will pay for that (head vet said last time I saw him that he wished they'd all do what I did and just look at the heifers mid-way through pregnancy because it would save them a lot of arm fatigue).

 

[Jogeephus]

Jo- I'm not sure what a vet would charge a small operation as a yearly fee. The $1/hd or $2/hd was what vets actually are charging on the 5,000 cow dairies. It does pencil out there.

I agree and think this is would be a good goal you should strive for. People will give you all the free and/or cheap work you can handle which ends up putting you in the trenches rather than allowing you to network and enjoy the benefits of the bigger picture. On your field calls, I think its worthy to note a truck driver is making around $3 mile here which equates to around $180/hour gross pay which is something I think worth considering when you set you price on field visits.

Another thing I think you should consider is that you are young now and full of energy. How you construct your business now will set the foundation of how you will be expected to operate in 25 years which is not a long time.

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:
Dollars per head vs. per hour

I am in favor of a vet charging a straight hourly fee, including traveling time, plus vaccines/medications.

This would properly compensate the vet for his time when the customer has neither the proper manpower, the proper facilities for him/her to do the job in a timely fashion, or just likes to take up his/her time talking other issues.
This would also reward those who do have the proper manpower and facilities and has his animals in a pen or chute when the vet arrives.

I do not think a vet should be expected to help with your roundup and getting the animal in the chute or headgate. IMO, when the vet arrives you should be ready for him/her to do their job.


One other thing I don't think was mentioned is that the vet should have an office manager capable of making appointments so as not to overload the vet or to be competent in rescheduling should an emergency comes in or the vet is called out.

If the appointment is for 10 AM the vet should call the customer when he/she leaves the office to advise he/she is on the way and what time he/she will be there and that is the start of his/her time that will be billed to you.

To me, an hourly rate is the only way to fair to all customers and the vet.

SL

 

[Sir Loin]

MM,
Here is another tidbit for ya.

IMO, if a vet treats and loses an animal he/she should do a necropsy, at their expense, on the animal and let the animal's owner know what the caused of death was, or at least what it was not.
SL

 

[larryshoat]

Wow a lot of reading here. I will tell you about my vet. He specializes in baby calves, his practice is 4 hours away. Why do I have a vet that is 4 hours away? Because that's how far I have to go to find somebody that knows more about starting calves than I do. To give you some idea of how our businesses coexist, because to both of us it is a business, it's how we take care of our families. Since 2005 I have paid him $120 in consulting fees and paid him $250,000 for milk, medicine, and supplies. If he has 200 clients like me that means he's sold 50 million dollars in milk, medicine, and supplies in 8 years. There are several people working there, they make every effort to supply your every need for raising calves. There prices are lower than I can buy anywhere else. I have seen them drive 2 hours and meet me halfway between here and there to get me medicine so I don't get it somewhere else.

I always tell the young folks that work for me what I call the "train analogy" , There are those that have missed the train, There are those that are riding the train, There are those that are driving the train, and There are those that are laying down the track. The vets of the future will be track layers.

Larry

 

[milkmaid]

There's a tough one SL. I think if the animal dies immediately after treatment, the veterinarian should do a necropsy on the animal immediately at their expense, if there is any concern by the veterinarian that they may have caused the animal to die.

There are enough cases where a client brings in an animal on death's doorstep and God alone is the only one who could save the animal. I don't think the veterinarian should feel responsible if those types of animals die.

Good analogy Larry, thanks~

 

[B&amp;M Farms]

My vet stays pretty busy at his clinic and to be honest would rather I take care of most things myself. He is always good about giving me advice on meds or any other information if needed. If I need him for an emergency or something over my head it's not a problem but he doesn't want to come out to vaccinate cows or cut calves. He has never charged me for information but I do buy my meds from him and he has seen my dogs and horses. He is the kind that thinks if you own cattle you should be able to do most things yourself. He has a well established business and to be honest makes more working on pets and horses than he would spending the day vaccinating my cows.

 

[TexasBred]

MM,
Here is another tidbit for ya.

IMO, if a vet treats and loses an animal he/she should do a necropsy, at their expense, on the animal and let the animal's owner know what the caused of death was, or at least what it was not.
SL

How long would the animal have to live "after treatment" in order for the vet to be removed from this BS??

 

[backhoeboogie]

Some vets are worth every penny they cost. Some aren't worth a plug nickel.

Based on my experiences with good and bad, it is hard to generalize.

 

[dun]

Some vets are worth every penny they cost. Some aren't worth a plug nickel.

Based on my experiences with good and bad, it is hard to generalize.

There was aguy that was a vet that worked as a clerk at a local feedstore. He wasn;t worth squat at that either.

 

[sackshowcattle]

I think one place vets are lacking is in reproduction. I have had a few vets in this state ask me what these meds were for that I wanted come AI time. I realize anyone can AI but here in colorado only vets can do embryo transfers from back in the day when they actually cut them open. There is one vet here that does it and it costs a bunch to have them do it. If your in a state that has these rules on the books you could make a bunch on et work alone. I know this is more a commercial board, But I show some and run commercial. To be honest that show ring is were the money is at. Right now the economy is tanked and there are still 50 and 60 thousand dollar calves running in the ring. I had a heifer cosmetically dehorned for my son. Took her to the vet it was a half hour work and cost 175 bucks. another place to look at is animal chiropractic. I was checking into it and you have to be a licensed chiropractor for humans or a vet to be certified for that. There was a guy walking around nwss this year he stopped buy 2 days in a row and spent 5 minutes each visit adjusting your calf. Cost was 50 bucks a calf for the 10 minutes of time for both visits. The final way that the show ring pays good is corrective hoof trimming. I know this is not vet required, but a one stop shop could be attractive for them. A good portion of the calves in the ring have some major structure issues and they pay dearly to get their calves hooves pointed forward a little more and get the calves a little better moving. Don't know if its something you would be interested in but just some random ways I have seen vets make really good money from a group that as a whole have no problem spending big bucks to think they just got a little more edge in the ring.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I think one place vets are lacking is in reproduction. I have had a few vets in this state ask me what these meds were for that I wanted come AI time. I realize anyone can AI but here in colorado only vets can do embryo transfers from back in the day when they actually cut them open. There is one vet here that does it and it costs a bunch to have them do it. If your in a state that has these rules on the books you could make a bunch on et work alone. I know this is more a commercial board, But I show some and run commercial. To be honest that show ring is were the money is at. Right now the economy is tanked and there are still 50 and 60 thousand dollar calves running in the ring. I had a heifer cosmetically dehorned for my son. Took her to the vet it was a half hour work and cost 175 bucks. another place to look at is animal chiropractic. I was checking into it and you have to be a licensed chiropractor for humans or a vet to be certified for that. There was a guy walking around nwss this year he stopped buy 2 days in a row and spent 5 minutes each visit adjusting your calf. Cost was 50 bucks a calf for the 10 minutes of time for both visits. The final way that the show ring pays good is corrective hoof trimming. I know this is not vet required, but a one stop shop could be attractive for them. A good portion of the calves in the ring have some major structure issues and they pay dearly to get their calves hooves pointed forward a little more and get the calves a little better moving. Don't know if its something you would be interested in but just some random ways I have seen vets make really good money from a group that as a whole have no problem spending big bucks to think they just got a little more edge in the ring.

Boy, you are spot on here! There are so many other areas to get into. Here in SW MO, there is not a lot of options to flush a cow or put in embryos. Our guy is a vet, and he comes to our place to do both, but trying to get him here can be difficult because he is so busy! We have hauled a few recips down to OK because that was the nearest program that put them in at the time. Just that alone could keep one busy!

 

[GMN]

Yes people should be warned if there is a consultation fee. I know of a situation where there had never been a phone consultation fee, and a child talked to a vet concerning their 4-H lamb which was in bad shape ( it did live due to serious care) Nothing was ever said, but when the parent went to buy medicines they were informed they owed $40 for a phone consultation fee.
It was paid, but with a firm note that when a child was spoken to, and a fee was going to be charged, the parent or guardian should have been informed first before the vet spoke to the child,- remember there had never been fees before this time so it was totally unexpected..

Thats ridiculus, i would not go to a vet who did his business in this manner

 

[GMN]

This post makes me appreciate the Vets I deal with, who like to talk, and treat people with kindness and respect