Use a cow lifter or not??

[Wisteria Farms]

Hi all.. I have a cow that's down... To answer all the questions... she's 5 years old, pregnant with calf #4... due March 29 (AI). I had her seen by the vet today...she received Calcium/Selenium/Banamine, etc. "just because" (NO DEX). Because she has feeling in all extremeties including down her spine AND she was able to energetically crawl away from the vet coming at her with a halter...

The vet thinks she has a fractured pelvis. She is currently bedded VERY deep (manure on bottom/deep straw on top) and I bring her buckets of water (which she drinks).. grain (which she eats) though she's not eating as much hay.

My question is: The vet said to get her in a sling. Now we've done this BEFORE... a couple years ago we had "Granny" go down with twins. The difference is, this vet says we need to leave this cow in the sling for 12 hours a day. HOWEVER... I was reading about the best sling for a cow with a pelvic fracture...trying to see if I should modify my setup at all... and it says DONT DO IT! That slinging her will actually make it worse....that as long as she is moving HERSELF side to side, that TIME, DEEP BEDDING and good nutrition is what is needed.

Thoughts???
Thanks for your input... Im just conflicted about the best route.

 

[JMJ Farms]

I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't try. Because I usually do. But this is my experience... I've never had a down cow get up that didn't get up on her own. As long as they are trying, I tote them feed and water.

FWIW, if you had access to a tank to float her up, that would be worth a shot, IMO.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

More as I was thinking about it... Vet said if it was magnesium/selenium issue that I would not see ONE cow with this, but I would see several. This shouldn't be it because we have Wind & Rain mineral out 24/7...she also said with mag deficiency the cow would have a "shake" to her (not observed)... she also said that because the cow has not CALVED...that it shouldn't be a calcium issue... but in the interest of doing everything I can... I had her give those to her anyway. I'm not sure about the Banamine as she doesn't appear to be in any pain at all but maybe she was just wanting to cover all bases. Due to the calving date of March 29th I said no DEX.

She said if it was nerve damage that there would have been somewhere that the cow wouldn't have feeling. She checked all feet/legs/tail/pinched down her back, etc and the cow felt everything. She also noted that the cow is very bright, alert, and appears very healthy... (if she wasn't, just like Granny, I would have her humanely put down).

My ultimate goal, if it IS a fractured pelvis, is for the cow to heal and deliver her calf. Worst case, I have to put the cow down and lose both her and the calf but in the middle is keeping momma comfortable long enough to GET the calf. She's given us 3 boys...last years calf is going to be our new 2016 cleanup bull... he's phenominal...so obviously I'm hoping to get a daughter. I'm just really conflicted about the sling....do it or don't....I know you guys have all dealt with these things in the past so I really appreciate your input on what, if anything, has ever worked for you.

 

[regolith]

You know, normally I would advocate using a lifter to get a cow up and going.
In this instance - no.
I doubt you'd get a consensus either way. My reasoning - cow is moving herself around, thus at low risk of muscle damage from being a downer. If the cause is indeed a pelvic injury, then you're not assisting her to get up and go - just hanging her to keep her limbs working (which if she's crawling, isn't necessary). And leaving her suspended unsupervised is a complete no-no. Are you going to stand there with her for 12 hours a day?

Dry pasture if you've got it is an easier surface to get up from than deep bedding, otherwise deep bedding is probably the best she can have. Done any blood tests? I have zero experience with fractured pelvis other than I'm pretty sure a vet has once wrongly diagnosed one of my heifers with the condition. Wouldn't have thought the prognosis would be very good. The vets *will* give minerals just because a downer is a greater risk of deficiencies, but calcium/Se almost seems like the vet might be uncertain and covering all possibilities.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Have you shocked her? I'm not saying torture her. But if you stick her with a hot shot she will get up if she possibly can. I know some people don't like hot shots, but remember you are trying to help her. If this doesn't work I just tote feed and water to them until they give up trying.

 

[regolith]

Just about everything your vet told you about mineral possibilities is wrong.
You can't presume anything on one individual cow from her external signs - it would take a blood test to know for sure. Yes, they can get calcium deficiency at this stage, it's rare but it does happen. They can be low mag without showing the traditional jitters/tremors or accelerated heart rate. And the years I've seen milk fever precalving it's been one or two cows, not a whole lot.

Banamine is good in this instance as an anti-inflammatory because a) the vet appears to be unclear what is at issue, but it could easily be an injury that banamine will help and b) she's a downer. Just being recumbent is enough to cause tissue damage which again, the banamine will help relieve.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Thanks JMJ...no access to large floater tank... I WISH! The nearest one would probably be at one of the universities...we're very rural! No I have not shocked her. I don't own one. I'm not saying I WOULDN'T if it was absolutely necessary but she is moving all over the stall so haven't thought I needed one. As mentioned, she had quite a bit of "oomph" when the vet came at her with the halter (they haltered her to get the calcium drip started in her jugular).

Regolith.. in the vet's defense...she said she didn't think the calcium/selenium would help and would be a waste of money... BUT... on the slim chance she was misreading something I asked she go ahead and give it. I just didn't want to be putting her down a week from now and wonder "what if I'd done this or that"...

As for dry pasture, I understand completely what you're saying about better footing... she was ON pasture when we noticed she was not moving from where she lay in the pasture. When we got her up, she was definitely limping so we brought her in. We wanted to examine her really good and find out if it was a foot issue/obvious injury/or what. We didn't see ANYTHING....She DID NOT WANT TO GO but I thought being in a stall with deep bedding would be better than on frozen ground (I might be wrong but I thought if she started to lose circulation in her legs that cold ground wouldn't help...I thought she needed to be dry). We are getting freezing rain tomorrow and if she was outside right now I'd be in a tizzy!!! With the manure in the bottom of the stall, she does have pretty good footing.

Thanks so much for your replies...

 

[dun]

Have you shocked her? I'm not saying torture her. But if you stick her with a hot shot she will get up if she possibly can. I know some people don't like hot shots, but remember you are trying to help her. If this doesn't work I just tote feed and water to them until they give up trying.

I agree, and I'm one that hates hotshots. But in this one instance I would give it a try.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Dun, I know you've been on here FOREVER and I trust you... so let me ask... if I shock her, what am I looking to happen? With a shock she's going to jump up and then what? Tonight when the vet came at her, I would consider it the same as a shock... she lurched to the other side of the stall...she did NOT want them messing with her but she couldn't get on all fours.

I've never used a hotshot (never had to) so I'm asking a serious question. You really think she could STAND UP and STAY UP? I really do appreciate this more than you know.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Dun, I know you've been on here FOREVER and I trust you... so let me ask... if I shock her, what am I looking to happen? With a shock she's going to jump up and then what? Tonight when the vet came at her, I would consider it the same as a shock... she lurched to the other side of the stall...she did NOT want them messing with her but she couldn't get on all fours.

I've never used a hotshot (never had to) so I'm asking a serious question. You really think she could STAND UP and STAY UP? I really do appreciate this more than you know.

You asked for dun but I'm gonna answer too

If you shock her with a hot shot she's gonna get up... IF SHE POSSIBLY CAN. If she doesn't you've lost nothing. But she's gonna try real hard.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Sorry JMJ...I meant no disrespect to you but more a compliment to Dun...he's just been on here FOREVER!!
I understand the concept..that it will PROVE to me whether she can get up..but just because she CAN...does it mean she SHOULD?

 

[JMJ Farms]

Sorry JMJ...I meant no disrespect to you but more a compliment to Dun...he's just been on here FOREVER!!
I understand the concept..that it will PROVE to me whether she can get up..but just because she CAN...does it mean she SHOULD?

No worries! I didn't take it that way at all.

No. It doesn't mean should. It just means she will probably try as hard as she can. I wish you the best. That's always a frustrating situation to me.

 

[Nesikep]

In this instance I don't think the hot shot would do anything the vet coming at her wouldn't.. it's just a strong simulus.

I thought it was possible to rectally palpate for a broken pelvis... not that I know how.

We did have a cow go down on ice and break her pelvis, she was about 6-7 month bred at the time, we brought her to a dry place, bucketed water and feed, and about a month before being due she had a calf, good and healthy, but small. she was still unable to get up, and had developed bed sores by then so we put her down and bottled the calf... That was 20 years ago, and it was our last bottle baby (from start to finish).

As long as she's scooting, I think you can manage the risk of the bed sores, make sure she alternates sides once in a while... A down cow never has a rosy prognosis, but I think you may be able to nurse her along to get the calf.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Yes it is. I've had it twice now. Couple years ago my oldest cow had trouble with twins...we slinged her for several days but she started to prolapse and as she started to go further down hill we decided to induce labor and then put her down. Feel like I'm repeating the same thing...only this time I'm going off the vet's diagnosis of a fractured/broken pelvis so have only slightly more hope of this having a better outcome. Its extremely frustrating...she's only 5 and one of our best producers...every calf out of her has been awesome. The one she's carrying now is a full sibling to the bull we're keeping... sire is Karakara Burleigh (semen brought over from Australia) so losing her NOW when she's due to calve the end of March would just make me SICK.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Nes...you're a blast from the past too... good to see you're still here... I remember you being with me all through Granny's problems and birth of her twins... good to hear from you. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[dun]

If you hit her with a hotshot, she should lunge as if she's trying to get up. If she doesn;t lunge or get up, I wouldn;t hit her more then once. If she does indeed have a cracked pelvis, getting up would probably be the worst thing she could do. I've only had limited experience with a cracked/broken pelvis. Although they seemed to do ok at first, within a week or so they started to get "that look" in their eyes and we put them down.
The whole sling deal just strikes me as being a bad idea. Her weight being born on her belly and on the calf just strikes me as a bad idea.

 

[dun]

Dun, I know you've been on here FOREVER

That doesn;t mean I have the right answers!

 

[bmoore87]

I think that you are going to have to get her up for at least short periods of time regularly to have a good shot of her getting up or even making it until calving wether using a lift or buzzer. Seems like the longer you let them lay the more their muscle deteriorates and they seem to go downhill after long periods of being down. If she weren't such an important cow to you I would euthanize her if she wouldnt get up in the next week or two. March would be a long way to go with a downer, good luck.

 

[JMJ Farms]

FWIW, I had a cow have twins in April. Both stillborn. She stood up when I found her but she had no control over her back right leg. She hobbled around for 3 months. Looked pitiful. Lost about 1/3 of her total weight. But she looked alert and determined and kept trying. So I let her be. And then I finally started seeing her gradually putting weight on it. Today she looks as good as she did before. I don't know what happened inside (pinched nerve maybe) but she overcame it. I think they are a lot like people. Their attitude towards getting better plays a role in the outcome.

 

[dun]

Their attitude towards getting better plays a role in the outcome.

That's were the look in the eye comes into play