Trees vs undergrowth.

[Thunder]

First, I ain't got the land, cows, or water. So we're just barnstormin' here a little bit.

If I had, say, 300 acres in central Texas, and I fenced off about 40, and planted about 200 pecan trees on a 100' spacing(very wide), and planted, oh, cowpeas in the summer, some kind of winter legume, and buckwheat(also somewhat nitrogen fixing) in between, and hayed, or grazed, or harvested the crops, and let's say by hook or by crook I managed enough water to irrigate an inch or a little more a week in the summer, when the trees have leaves, would the shade ruin the crops?

Whew! Compound question. Not a run-on.

Overall, all things considered, is this a terrible idea, or an interesting concept to explore further?

The idea is to get the stuff off the ground mid september or so, shake the trees, pick with hand rollers. Lazy man's farmin' and ranchin' with just enough work to keep you healthy. No mechanized picker, too expensive for a small operation. Used shaker. Pecans are the main crop, everything else just helps. Not to much work for a family and a few kids.

 

[FungusProudKY31]

Why not just do nuts and hunting lease? Skip the cow stuff. Who wants a pecan from a cowpie anyhow?

 

[Brute 23]

A gentleman from Georgia kept talking about pecan hay at a class one time. Finally I asked him what pecan hay was and it is basically all the grass they bale between the Pecan trees. Hope that helps.

 

[bird dog]

Make sure your part of Central Texas has the right soil to grow pecans. Pecans in the blacklands does not work very well. Trees planted on 100" centers will take a long time before the shade out your grass.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

You do realize when you plant a tree that it is for someone else?

 

[Thunder]

Response to brute 23. Yes, I know it is 20 years before the trees get big.

 

[Thunder]

Response to bird dog. The point is intergenerational planning.

 

[Thunder]

Why not just do nuts and hunting lease? Skip the cow stuff. Who wants a pecan from a cowpie anyhow?

I think I messed up the last two posts. Now I understand the board functions.

The cows are on the rest of the farm.

 

[bbirder]

Sounds like a question for your county soil extension office.

 

[FungusProudKY31]

Look into the future prices of pecans. I think that China or some other country will flood the market in less than 20 years. I believe that increased production in other countries have already impacted the industry.

 

[Thunder]

My thought is that you can't predict prices. I would assume it is going to stay about where it is.

I know that they won't make a crop for 10 years, and for at least 15 years won't shade anything out. It would be a hay field with some pecan trees in it. I'm just wondering what having a bunch of 50 foot tall trees would do to the ground crop productivity 20+ years down the road. Not that it would really impact me. I guess if there are a bunch of productive pecan trees there it won't matter. Im just trying to understand the concept.

I've heard grass men say trees ruin grass production. I can look at my barren backyard and see that at some point that is absolutely true.

 

[Walking W]

First, I ain't got the land, cows, or water. So we're just barnstormin' here a little bit.

If I had, say, 300 acres in central Texas, and I fenced off about 40, and planted about 200 pecan trees on a 100' spacing(very wide), and planted, oh, cowpeas in the summer, some kind of winter legume, and buckwheat(also somewhat nitrogen fixing) in between, and hayed, or grazed, or harvested the crops, and let's say by hook or by crook I managed enough water to irrigate an inch or a little more a week in the summer, when the trees have leaves, would the shade ruin the crops?

Whew! Compound question. Not a run-on.

Overall, all things considered, is this a terrible idea, or an interesting concept to explore further?

The idea is to get the stuff off the ground mid september or so, shake the trees, pick with hand rollers. Lazy man's farmin' and ranchin' with just enough work to keep you healthy. No mechanized picker, too expensive for a small operation. Used shaker. Pecans are the main crop, everything else just helps. Not to much work for a family and a few kids.

I know people who gave done much the same thing n the same scale. The difference is that it was on land that was watered from river water rights in the Mesilla Valley of New Mexico( think Hatch, NM) in Dona Ana County, the largest pecan producing county in the United States. Stahman Farms used to be the largest but Salopek Farms is still growing essentially using sand dunes to plant trees in. If you look at their spacing, it is more like 35 to 40 ft. They used to grow grass in between and run a large goose operation using the grass and etc. to feed the geese. until the health dept made them quit due to pecan contamination. There are agricultural protections against the importing of pests such as the casing nut bore as well as facilities and services readily available for any aspect of pecan growing. My father planted about 40 trees on about an acre near there in1971 and finally got about 100 lbs/tree in 2005. BTW- he may have netted about $2000 off that crop, His were on 40 ft spacing and, yes, after 20 years the ground was very shaded. Your spacing will not be as tight, though. If it were me, I would go with a tighter spacing and plant what you can until the ground is shaded out. It will require much less water , labor and all sorts of other things that come with a labor intensive operation like that. Use the rest of your place to grow what you would have planted between the more spaced out trees.

 

[Lucky_P]

Until those trees got big/tall enough for cows not to browse/rub/break them over, you couldn't graze that acreage, unless you caged individual trees or somehow fenced the cows away from them.

 

[FungusProudKY31]

My thought is that you can't predict prices. I would assume it is going to stay about where it is.

I know that they won't make a crop for 10 years, and for at least 15 years won't shade anything out. It would be a hay field with some pecan trees in it. I'm just wondering what having a bunch of 50 foot tall trees would do to the ground crop productivity 20+ years down the road. Not that it would really impact me. I guess if there are a bunch of productive pecan trees there it won't matter. Im just trying to understand the concept.

I've heard grass men say trees ruin grass production. I can look at my barren backyard and see that at some point that is absolutely true.

You'd better got to a pecan growers' seminar or read a bit. The market is flat to dropping and all due to foreign efforts. But whatever you want to do.

 

[fasttommy]

Do some reading up on the concept of Silvopasture which is essentially what you are suggesting. There can be some benefits of strategic shade in a pasture such as increased palatability of the forage, plus you get the benefits of dual land uses/income streams. Forage reduction due to shade isn't always significant depending on the amount of canopy cover. Adaptive grazing techniques would be needed to avoid damage to the trees, or fencing them out completely like Lucky P said.

 

[Walking W]

My thought is that you can't predict prices. I would assume it is going to stay about where it is.

I know that they won't make a crop for 10 years, and for at least 15 years won't shade anything out. It would be a hay field with some pecan trees in it. I'm just wondering what having a bunch of 50 foot tall trees would do to the ground crop productivity 20+ years down the road. Not that it would really impact me. I guess if there are a bunch of productive pecan trees there it won't matter. Im just trying to understand the concept.

I've heard grass men say trees ruin grass production. I can look at my barren backyard and see that at some point that is absolutely true.

One other thought on growing pecans. Be careful what ground you plant them in. It may look good on the surface but pecans have a long tap root. I've seen pecan trees planted where there was rock or caliche three feet down and the trees never did grow. It would be an expensive lesson to buy the land and the trees only to find that they will die in a few years.

 

[Thunder]

Thanks! Great points.

 

[jschoolcraft86]

First, I ain't got the land, cows, or water. So we're just barnstormin' here a little bit.

If I had, say, 300 acres in central Texas, and I fenced off about 40, and planted about 200 pecan trees on a 100' spacing(very wide), and planted, oh, cowpeas in the summer, some kind of winter legume, and buckwheat(also somewhat nitrogen fixing) in between, and hayed, or grazed, or harvested the crops, and let's say by hook or by crook I managed enough water to irrigate an inch or a little more a week in the summer, when the trees have leaves, would the shade ruin the crops?

Whew! Compound question. Not a run-on.

Overall, all things considered, is this a terrible idea, or an interesting concept to explore further?

The idea is to get the stuff off the ground mid september or so, shake the trees, pick with hand rollers. Lazy man's farmin' and ranchin' with just enough work to keep you healthy. No mechanized picker, too expensive for a small operation. Used shaker. Pecans are the main crop, everything else just helps. Not to much work for a family and a few kids.

I have a pecan orchard in Seguin with trees spaced 30 x 30 on a diagonal (60 x 60 square with one tree in the middle, center tree to be removed later). I can't speak to the crops having success but I have baled my orchard and done well.

If you don't get enough supplemental water you'll need more than an inch per week on those trees to make them do very well. I've always been told by the A&M guys you need 1" per week through june and 2" per week starting in july when they're filling. That 100' spacing is a whole lot of room I would shrink that down a little but at least you'll never have crowding issues. If you have the money for the trees I would even say start at 50' and then pull every other tree in about 25 years when they finally start getting somewhat close.

I guess I got a little off the general question. I don't see any reason why your idea wouldn't work. Just pull the cows from the orchard within about 45 days of harvest. I forgot the exact interval but I'm sure it's available online or the extension service can tell you.

 

[jschoolcraft86]

You'd better got to a pecan growers' seminar or read a bit. The market is flat to dropping and all due to foreign efforts. But whatever you want to do.

This is a fantastic point. There is a push for increased pecan marketing that will hopefully generate some domestic interest but when China started buying from Mexico instead of the US it really put a damper on things.

 

[jschoolcraft86]

Until those trees got big/tall enough for cows not to browse/rub/break them over, you couldn't graze that acreage, unless you caged individual trees or somehow fenced the cows away from them.

The cows will absolutely rob the young trees of their leaves, I haven't built a cage for a tree yet that could keep a motivated cow or calf out.