The best way ?'s

[IluvABbeef]

I need some opinions here.

I've been given some great info by a friend on here (not naming names ;-) ) on crossbreeding, but of course ye can't go on with info from just one source, 'cause ye need a bunch of different sources in order to make a GOOD (and solid) decision. (Sorry KNERSIE...oh, whoops!!...too late now... ;-) ...hope ye don't mind...)

Anyway, what's the best way to go, for someone like me:

1. Foundation herd are straightbred Herefords bred to purebred Angus bull to produce baldies (heifers and steers) that are sold for market (premium, obviously); buy replacement straightbred Herf heifers

OR

2. Foundation herd comprising of F1 Black Baldy cows bred to a terminal bull (either Simmental or Limousine(?)), and sell both steers and heifers for premium; buy replacement F1 heifers.


Thanks in advance...

 

[Gate Opener]

I don't know what Knersie told you but I value his advice and would go with what he said.

 

[Bez>]

Both work - but .....

KNERSIE ain't no dummie.

I also might have kept that part to myself.

Bez>

 

[VanC]

Agree with Bez. Either way would work, but if it were me, I would go the black baldy route. I love Herefords, but on average good crossbred cows will last longer than straightbreds, which will cut your replacement costs over the long haul. Either way, I would try to buy the replacements from one reliable, reputable breeder rather than a number of different ones.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Well, I value his advice as well, 'cause he answered a lot of questions I had about this commercial crossbreeding thing, and some other things that were new to me. But I thought it would be--I guess you could say--"wise" just to ask of other folks' opinions too on this herd selection thing. BTW, I haven't asked him this question at all...and, thanks to him, he was the one who conviced me to go with either of these two choices, instead of having shorties and herfords as seedstock cows.

So with that I'd like to hear some more thoughts on these selections of mine.

 

[Beefy]

Alberta, just get you some Black Herefords. it would be much simpler.

 

[Brandonm2]

I think #2 would be the best suggestion; but before you implement anything make sure you have a decent seedstock source (or two) that has 1) cattle of the kind of quality and health status you demand 2) is big enough to handle your needs over the long haul (ie if you need 20 heifers a year he better have a lot more than 50 cows) and 3) at a price you can live with. A lot of people end up with a two or three way crossing system (not by design) but because they either raise better heifers than what they can find in their local market or 2) won't/can't pay what their "ideal" heifers bring.

 

[Horseless]

You need to do both. Use #1 for your replacements and #2 for the rest. Drop the part about buying replacements. Otherwise make sure you read Brandonm2 post several more times about a good seedstock source. Even thought they may sell replacements, I'll guarantee they have kept their best and selling the rest.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I forgot to add that my target herd # is around 60 cow-calf pairs, and bulls. That might make a difference to my selection criteria. Starting out with 4 to 6 cows.

 

[andybob]

I am a peoponent of the F1/terminal bull for commercial production. You might be able to find someone producing Baldies as terminal crosses, from which you can source your replacement females. Brandonm2 is spot on with his advise on quality, it is worth considering networking with someone who can supply you the type of replcements you need.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Thanks everyone.

 

[CowpokeJ]

Option 2 with a black simmy, gelby, etc.....with the gelby you could get some replacements

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I need some opinions here.

I've been given some great info by a friend on here (not naming names ;-) ) on crossbreeding, but of course ye can't go on with info from just one source, 'cause ye need a bunch of different sources in order to make a GOOD (and solid) decision. (Sorry KNERSIE...oh, whoops!!...too late now... ;-) ...hope ye don't mind...)

Anyway, what's the best way to go, for someone like me:

1. Foundation herd are straightbred Herefords bred to purebred Angus bull to produce baldies (heifers and steers) that are sold for market (premium, obviously); buy replacement straightbred Herf heifers

OR

2. Foundation herd comprising of F1 Black Baldy cows bred to a terminal bull (either Simmental or Limousine(?)), and sell both steers and heifers for premium; buy replacement F1 heifers.


Thanks in advance...

KNERSIE is as knowledgeable as anyone on the Board, and because he raises Herefords I would imagine that he would suggest going with straightbred Herefords - BUT - with respect to KNERSIE, I would recommend that you go with plan #2 and use Limousine Bulls with high Docility EPD's. Either plan is certainly acceptable, and the choice would be fine for you to go either way, but I would suggest #2, as I said.

Sorry, KNERSIE. A few years ago I would not have even hesitated to reject the Hereford plan, but they have made an incredible comeback recently and I had to analyse my answer for a couple of minutes.

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

I need some opinions here.

I've been given some great info by a friend on here (not naming names ;-) ) on crossbreeding, but of course ye can't go on with info from just one source, 'cause ye need a bunch of different sources in order to make a GOOD (and solid) decision. (Sorry KNERSIE...oh, whoops!!...too late now... ;-) ...hope ye don't mind...)

Anyway, what's the best way to go, for someone like me:

1. Foundation herd are straightbred Herefords bred to purebred Angus bull to produce baldies (heifers and steers) that are sold for market (premium, obviously); buy replacement straightbred Herf heifers

OR

2. Foundation herd comprising of F1 Black Baldy cows bred to a terminal bull (either Simmental or Limousine(?)), and sell both steers and heifers for premium; buy replacement F1 heifers.


Thanks in advance...

KNERSIE is as knowledgeable as anyone on the Board, and because he raises Herefords I would imagine that he would suggest going with straightbred Herefords - BUT - with respect to KNERSIE, I would recommend that you go with plan #2 and use Limousine Bulls with high Docility EPD's. Either plan is certainly acceptable, and the choice would be fine for you to go either way, but I would suggest #2, as I said.

Sorry, KNERSIE. A few years ago I would not have even hesitated to reject the Hereford plan, but they have made an incredible comeback recently and I had to analyse my answer for a couple of minutes.

DOC HARRIS

Actually Doc, I suggested plan no2 as the best option, even with your choice of terminal bull, but starting with 4-6 head and building up to 60 I think that no2 is impractical for her situation.

With the limited number of animals she can run, I suggested building a herd of straight herefords or angus or pretty much any british breed she fancies and use a bull of another british breed to sell in the replacement heifer market. My preference would have been building a straight hereford cowherd, AI the best half of them every second year to the best maternal hereford bull available, keep replacements and cleanup and breed the rest to a black angus bull to get the premium on the baldie heifers while the BWF steers should also sell well.

This way you have a bit more selection pressure in the year when you retain replacements and have a big very marketable calf crop every other year. In your breeding for replacements year you will still have more than 50% of the calves baldies.

I can not see how you can ever build a uniform herd starting with 4-6 animals crossbreeding using a terminal sire. What may maximise heterosis isn't practical in every situation

 

[Brandonm2]

Option 2 is a lot easier to start out. Buy five head, sell all the calves, and use the profits to buy two to three more head every year. The only achilles heal in that is finding a decent seedstock supplier who will supply an acceptable product over the long haul. IF you buy four head of straight Herefords and keep every heifer you ever have (even with AI), I don't think she will have a really outstanding set of cows by the time she reaches 40 head and the straight blood steers won't bring as much per head as the baldie steers along the way.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I think the other thing I have to think about and keep in mind is that the heifers that I MIGHT buy, if I decide to go that route, they might only be second best to the ones that he (or she) would want to keep. :?

Now, I had been deciding that IF I go do option #1 (not saying as of yet if I definately will) I might not decide to go with herfs, but might go with angus (black or red). Now, I hate to start a war over this, but there are some arguments between hereford breeders and angus breeders of which breed is better. One side says that they're breed has no problems and say that the other has the problems, don't go with it-sort of thing, and vice versa. :roll: Who to believe??

Those are just some observations I've made from reading different threads on here and on ranchers.net.

 

[dun]

but there are some arguments between hereford breeders and angus breeders of which breed is better. One side says that they're breed has no problems and say that the other has the problems, don't go with it-sort of thing, and vice versa. :roll: Who to believe??

Eacvh breeder thnks that their particualr breed is superior to others, if they didn;t believe that they wouldn;t raise them. Who do you believe? The producer that doesn;t have an axe to grind about any particular breed and or your own observations/experience. Problem is that experience cost money

dun

 

[Northern Rancher]

Altabeef if you need to source some good solid Hereford heifers let me know-I know of some pretty good bunches out your way. I've got baldy heifers out my wazoo this year-it seems just about every black cow I bred Hereford had a baldy heifer calf which is exactly what I wanted. We've done real well selling bred replacements every year but I can't supply the demand right now. If your going to go that right you have to source good heifers-no presort multibrand stuff- and stand behind your cattle TOTALLY. I offer to buy back the heifer calves from our sale heifers every year-at a premium- but in ten years I haven't been able to buy any back lol. I wouldn't worry about getting second cut heifers from the guys I'd reccommend-there's not much differance between the top and bottom of their herds. In fact if your just starting out they might let you just pick what you like.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Altabeef if you need to source some good solid Hereford heifers let me know-I know of some pretty good bunches out your way. I've got baldy heifers out my wazoo this year-it seems just about every black cow I bred Hereford had a baldy heifer calf which is exactly what I wanted. We've done real well selling bred replacements every year but I can't supply the demand right now. If your going to go that right you have to source good heifers-no presort multibrand stuff- and stand behind your cattle TOTALLY. I offer to buy back the heifer calves from our sale heifers every year-at a premium- but in ten years I haven't been able to buy any back lol. I wouldn't worry about getting second cut heifers from the guys I'd reccommend-there's not much differance between the top and bottom of their herds. In fact if your just starting out they might let you just pick what you like.

Okay, thanks. There's also a neighbor that runs purebred Herefords that I'm thinking of taking a visit to sometime and check out them.

Now for me, with limited cow-calf experience, it would be better to find some cows that have had their third calf right? I'm thinking that if I start with heifers instead, I MIGHT run into a bit of trouble, because first they'd be unfamiliar to me and second they'd be a little ansy with the new mother thing...

That's all the questions I have for now...until later.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I'd buy yourself some 3 n 1's: Bred cows with calves at foot. Then you'll have some income in your first year. Bred cows with calves aren't selling all that well, in comparison to plain old bred animals, so you may find yourself some deals.

Rod