Testing for Endophytes

[Lucky_P]

We renovated a 45-acre corn/soybean field to endophyte-free fescue (I've forgotten the variety... maybe 'Duo', which is actually a festulolium -a fescue/ryegrass hybrid) + Benchmark orchardgrass & mix of red & Ladino clovers, back in 2000. Got a GREAT stand! But... the second year, we hit a drought situation, and it turned toes-up. And, the cows would hardly even touch the Benchmark... it would be the very last thing they would graze off.
Re-drilled a blend of Max-Q(novel endophyte fescue) and Persist orchardgrass to replace it. Did OK; the Max-Q is still hanging in there, Persist has thinned and needs 'thickening' up, but IDK if the kid who's cutting hay these days is up to paying for more seed and dragging the drill across the fields... I'm not gonna do it for him. We rotationally-grazed that field - and the rest of the farm - moving to a new paddock every 1-3 days, depending upon conditions, for nearly 20 years, and it still looks good. Cows came off the pastures about the end of October, and went back out, usually in April... or whenever we ran out of hay.

Had 45 acres of poor upland ground that had a decent stand of KY-31 on about half of it. Killed it off to plant the mix of MaxQ and Persist around the same time we reclaimed the creekbottom field. I've regretted killing the KY-31 off the 'topside' pastures almost every day. Yeah, I got some MaxQ growing, but it never came in as thick as the KY-31 was. If it had that to do over.... I'd just spend more $$ on legumes and lime.

I have not tested any fields to see if high-endophyte KY-31 re-introduced itself.

Red clover, IMO, is for hayfields. Ladino is good in a grazing setting. If it's poor, upland, ground, with lower pH than is optimal for clover... annual lespedeza is good... cows like it, and it puts on the bulk of its growth in July/Aug, when clovers and cool-season grasses are slumping.
I have quite a bit of dallisgrass, crabgrass, and johnsongrass in the sward, which provided good summer grazing, and now contributes significantly to second-cutting hay.

 

[Little Joe]

I suspect that it will return at the same rate as the other undesirable grasses if the pasture is overgrazed and uncared for.

Honestly, I believe it will return regardless as long as the pasture is being managed for desirable forage but I may be wrong. I'd put my money in getting other grasses and legumes established in the mix so that the endophyte isn't an issue. What kind of results have the other operators in that area had long term eradicating KY31? I personally like it but wouldn't want a solid stand.

 

[Ky hills]

I'm one of those that chooses to just live with KY31. We have a mix of KY31, bluegrass, white and red clover. We've put a lot of different varieties of clover, orchard grass, timothy, ryegrass, over the years. For a while I was broadcasting lespedeeza it was good to come in for grazing while fescue was dormant up into the summer.
We are on hills and while everyone fussed about fescue, I actually appreciate it in some places it stays thick and is hardy in areas that other planted grasses would not hold up,
I supplement with feed because our hay is generally lower quality by the time it's cut.
It doesn't seem worth the money and effort to me to try to fight fescue.
Like others have said I try to keep it diluted and have cattle that can tolerate it,

 

[Logan52]

I live where the Eden Shale meets the Outer Bluegrass and could have written almost word for word what Ky Hills just posted.
I might have added my pastures benefit greatly from volunteer crabgrass in the summer when fescue goes dormant, particularly in areas that have been plowed and tilled and the fescue has yet to form a thick sod.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

From my understanding the novel types just don't do as good as KY31. I hear either endophyte fescue takes back over or it's hard to maintain a good stand. I have what I assume is endophyte infected fescue because it was just what volunteered or came from hay I was feeding and I don't have problems with it but I do have a variety of other grasses mixed in such as bahia, bermuda, dallisgrass, crabgrass, clover, redtop and some other varieties of grasses so they don't just get a bite of fescue all the time. Dilution is the solution is the motto for endophyte infected fescue. I wouldn't fight what you already have, just learn to work with it. There are a lot of cattle in this part of the country that perform just fine on endophyte infected fescue. I'm betting you'll have a good seedbank in your soil of fescue and other grasses that will come up once the soil is right. Have you taken any soil samples to see what your PH is? I'm betting it's low. I prefer a good mix of warm season grasses and fescue and clovers, seems to work well in the Arkansas Ozarks. And cattle will graze that broomsedge well when it's tender. Getting your PH right will help with your broomsedge. I do have some areas that the ph is good and still have some broomsedge but not much. When I bought the farm that my house sits on, it was nothing but broomsedge and a lot of bare spots. At that time I couldn't spend much money on it so I'd just lime it when I had extra money and feed hay at different spots, finally got enough money to seed a little bermuda and fertilize and later chicken litter. Now my pasture is some of the better pasture around. I bought a new farm that borders me a few years ago, it was taken over by gum,cedar and briars. I mean it was so thick you'd get lost walking around in it. I cleaned it up and have limed it twice, sill a lot of broom sedge but starting to get fescue coming through from the seed bank. I also seeded bermuda in the ash where I burned all the brush and trees. There were probably 15 piles on the place that were huge so that's helped getting a little bermuda started. I don't know if you've tried disking any but I don't recommend it, you'll be picking up rocks for months. I disked quite a bit on my home place trying to get bermuda started, I swore after that I'd never disk again. But I have found that I can run my disk blades straight where they only make a cut in the ground that it doesn't disturb rocks too much.

I'll get to the fescue in my next post here. First, the broomsedge. Lime USUALLY takes care of the broomsedge and yes, the pH is the FIRST thing to correct. The reason the broomsedge is prevalent is that there is a lack of AVAILABILITY of phosphorous and/or potassium. When the pH of a soil is low, phosphorous and potassium that is in the soil simply is not available to the plants because of the pH. Correcting the pH makes these nutrients available. If your pH is fine (6-7) and you still have a broomsedge problem, then the soil is lacking phosphorous and/or potassium. These need added with fertilizer at this point. If you attempt to fertilize without correcting the pH, you will still have broomsedge because, even though you added the 'missing' nutrients, they still aren't available because the pH i 'blocking' them or rather binding them and preventing their availability.

A soil test will answer the pH and nutrient availability/quantity questions.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

If you farm in the K31 belt, you've either got the fungus or will get it!

I'll rephrase/restate that. "If you have native (actually naturalized) wild tall fescue, you have the toxic endophyte." I've never seen a farm in the 'KY31 belt'/fescue belt that doesn't have fescue (although I have seen one that had 70 acres of pasture ant there was fescue on only 2.7 acres. This was really, really, really unusual)

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Honestly, I believe it will return regardless as long as the pasture is being managed for desirable forage but I may be wrong. I'd put my money in getting other grasses and legumes established in the mix so that the endophyte isn't an issue. What kind of results have the other operators in that area had long term eradicating KY31? I personally like it but wouldn't want a solid stand.

Yes, it will return. No ifs, ands or buts.....

 

[Mark Reynolds]

From my understanding the novel types just don't do as good as KY31. I hear either endophyte fescue takes back over or it's hard to maintain a good stand. I have what I assume is endophyte infected fescue because it was just what volunteered or came from hay I was feeding and I don't have problems with it but I do have a variety of other grasses mixed in such as bahia, bermuda, dallisgrass, crabgrass, clover, redtop and some other varieties of grasses so they don't just get a bite of fescue all the time. Dilution is the solution is the motto for endophyte infected fescue. I wouldn't fight what you already have, just learn to work with it. There are a lot of cattle in this part of the country that perform just fine on endophyte infected fescue. I'm betting you'll have a good seedbank in your soil of fescue and other grasses that will come up once the soil is right. Have you taken any soil samples to see what your PH is? I'm betting it's low. I prefer a good mix of warm season grasses and fescue and clovers, seems to work well in the Arkansas Ozarks. And cattle will graze that broomsedge well when it's tender. Getting your PH right will help with your broomsedge. I do have some areas that the ph is good and still have some broomsedge but not much. When I bought the farm that my house sits on, it was nothing but broomsedge and a lot of bare spots. At that time I couldn't spend much money on it so I'd just lime it when I had extra money and feed hay at different spots, finally got enough money to seed a little bermuda and fertilize and later chicken litter. Now my pasture is some of the better pasture around. I bought a new farm that borders me a few years ago, it was taken over by gum,cedar and briars. I mean it was so thick you'd get lost walking around in it. I cleaned it up and have limed it twice, sill a lot of broom sedge but starting to get fescue coming through from the seed bank. I also seeded bermuda in the ash where I burned all the brush and trees. There were probably 15 piles on the place that were huge so that's helped getting a little bermuda started. I don't know if you've tried disking any but I don't recommend it, you'll be picking up rocks for months. I disked quite a bit on my home place trying to get bermuda started, I swore after that I'd never disk again. But I have found that I can run my disk blades straight where they only make a cut in the ground that it doesn't disturb rocks too much.

The first novels and endophyte free varieties preformed lousy in comparison to KY31. There are novels now that give KY31 a run for its money.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Do you have direct experience with the newer varieties? As far as persistence during drought? And as far as avoiding the ky31 from coming back in? What varieties do you have experience with or confidence in?

There are a couple varieties newer than this one that work well, but this one is proven. Max-Q. Bar-optima is another. (Had to check that one real quick)

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I suspect that it will return at the same rate as the other undesirable grasses if the pasture is overgrazed and uncared for.

First, slow down and take a breath. Th3 endophyte has been a known 'problem' since the late 70's. KY31 (with the endophyte) was released as a 'variety' in 1943. It was found growing in a pasture doing well where everything else had been decimated several years before that. You aren't going to 'solve' the KY 31 'problem' here or anywhere within the forseeable future. IF you do, forget raising cows, you just made yourself independently wealthy.

Before you start testing your fescue to see if you have the endophyte, (you DO have it) you need to decide what you want to do about it. If you decide to 'live with it', there probably isn't much point in testing to begin with. Testing for levels doesn't go much good as the levels vary from field to field to year to year to week to week.

My advice, and you can do what you want, is the same as option "C" that @10-e-c-dirtfarmer said, learn to live with it. I have heard of some confirmed reports of KY31 being kept at bay for more than 10 years. They probably aren't practical for you.

@10-e-c-dirtfarmer listed 2 ways to deal with the fescue present. dilution, with legumes, and genetic selection of the livestock. I'll offer a 3rd in a sec. The legumes make a significant impact, but be sure you maintain them (don't graze out and watch the soil pH. You won't keep the clover with a pH below 5.5. The cattle genetics might be a problem to determine which are resistant within your herd as you have to have high endophyte levels to do this, and we want to prevent that to begin with, which brings me to the 3rd way to deal with the fescue. Don't let the levels build up. The highest concentration of the endophyte is in the seed head. So, prevent it from forming. There are chemical suppressants to do this but those aren't what I'm talking about. You want to keep the plants from forming seed heads anyway as plant growth and hence forage production slows (less feed) if seed heads do form. Fortunately, tall fescue plants produce all (most) of their seed all at once. So, graze the tall fescue when it starts to bolt or mow the tops off to stop the seed heads from forming. Also, graze the tall fescue frequently. Yes, you have to rest it after each grazing, but rest it for only 28 days, not 40 or 60. The endophyte concentration builds in older plant material. A note on this before anyone says anything: Stockpiling fescue is the best forage to stockpile. Don't utilize the stockpile until after a good, hard freeze. The freeze will kill the endophyte as well as make the tough, stockpiled fescue highly palatable to the livestock. The sugar content in the fescue increases significantly after a freeze.

I've seen too many 'so called' forage and grazing experts that don't have to pay the cost and manage the pasture long term say you HAVE to replace it. I have to be careful as I just described myself, with the exception that I don't advocate for KY31 elimination. You do NOT have to replace it by any stretch. Producers have been successful WITH it since 1943. Your farm is not going to fail because you have it. Quite the opposite really if you MANAGE it.

 

[Twisted]

First, slow down and take a breath. Th3 endophyte has been a known 'problem' since the late 70's. KY31 (with the endophyte) was released as a 'variety' in 1943. It was found growing in a pasture doing well where everything else had been decimated several years before that. You aren't going to 'solve' the KY 31 'problem' here or anywhere within the forseeable future. IF you do, forget raising cows, you just made yourself independently wealthy.

Before you start testing your fescue to see if you have the endophyte, (you DO have it) you need to decide what you want to do about it. If you decide to 'live with it', there probably isn't much point in testing to begin with. Testing for levels doesn't go much good as the levels vary from field to field to year to year to week to week.

My advice, and you can do what you want, is the same as option "C" that @10-e-c-dirtfarmer said, learn to live with it. I have heard of some confirmed reports of KY31 being kept at bay for more than 10 years. They probably aren't practical for you.

@10-e-c-dirtfarmer listed 2 ways to deal with the fescue present. dilution, with legumes, and genetic selection of the livestock. I'll offer a 3rd in a sec. The legumes make a significant impact, but be sure you maintain them (don't graze out and watch the soil pH. You won't keep the clover with a pH below 5.5. The cattle genetics might be a problem to determine which are resistant within your herd as you have to have high endophyte levels to do this, and we want to prevent that to begin with, which brings me to the 3rd way to deal with the fescue. Don't let the levels build up. The highest concentration of the endophyte is in the seed head. So, prevent it from forming. There are chemical suppressants to do this but those aren't what I'm talking about. You want to keep the plants from forming seed heads anyway as plant growth and hence forage production slows (less feed) if seed heads do form. Fortunately, tall fescue plants produce all (most) of their seed all at once. So, graze the tall fescue when it starts to bolt or mow the tops off to stop the seed heads from forming. Also, graze the tall fescue frequently. Yes, you have to rest it after each grazing, but rest it for only 28 days, not 40 or 60. The endophyte concentration builds in older plant material. A note on this before anyone says anything: Stockpiling fescue is the best forage to stockpile. Don't utilize the stockpile until after a good, hard freeze. The freeze will kill the endophyte as well as make the tough, stockpiled fescue highly palatable to the livestock. The sugar content in the fescue increases significantly after a freeze.

I've seen too many 'so called' forage and grazing experts that don't have to pay the cost and manage the pasture long term say you HAVE to replace it. I have to be careful as I just described myself, with the exception that I don't advocate for KY31 elimination. You do NOT have to replace it by any stretch. Producers have been successful WITH it since 1943. Your farm is not going to fail because you have it. Quite the opposite really if you MANAGE it.

I totally respect your opinion, but I know thoroughly what my challenges are. There is not a single producer that can honestly say that their herd will put on more weight with K-31 than any other grass or other variety of fescue. You yourself have been giving advice for supplementing K-31 to try and get the cow to eat it. Supplements aren't cheap and neither are land prices. The only way to get a decent return of investment is to put pounds on the cows. Every study has shown that K-31 significantly hinders that to the point that over a billion dollars a year is lost on it and that report was 3 years ago, I suspect that it is closer to 1 1/2 to 2 billion today. I want to manage for weight gain. sure I can plant legumes but here in the south they are gone by mid June, then what? More supplements? distillers grain? gluten? cubes?

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I totally respect your opinion, but I know thoroughly what my challenges are. There is not a single producer that can honestly say that their herd will put on more weight with K-31 than any other grass or other variety of fescue. You yourself have been giving advice for supplementing K-31 to try and get the cow to eat it. Supplements aren't cheap and neither are land prices. The only way to get a decent return of investment is to put pounds on the cows. Every study has shown that K-31 significantly hinders that to the point that over a billion dollars a year is lost on it and that report was 3 years ago, I suspect that it is closer to 1 1/2 to 2 billion today. I want to manage for weight gain. sure I can plant legumes but here in the south they are gone by mid June, then what? More supplements? distillers grain? gluten? cubes?

If I said (or when I said?) supplement, I was misspeaking at that point. What I would have meant when I said that is to supplement with other forages, not supplement in the strictest sense. I'm aware that legume presence is not constant all year round, which is in part why I didn't put it as a "cure all". MANAGEMENT of the tall fescue is the key. I'm aware that over a billion dollars is lost because of KY 31 fescue each year. You have to look at the other side of the coin as well. How many billions of dollars are made/saved each year because of KY31s resistance/ability to recover to/after grazing as well as how much is saved because of it's ability to stockpile better than any other grass? A for producers who can say their herds gain better with KY31 than any other grass or variety of fescue, there isn't any grass that is going to be 'tops' all year round for grazing. When it comes to stockpile grazing, there are plenty of producers that can honestly say that there is no grass better than KY 31.

I can't say that it does in all cases because it doesn't. But let's say a producer can potentially make $10,000 grazing on his land as a mavimum. Lets Say if he grazes tall fescue, the endophyte causes him to lose $1,500 off that 10K so his profit is only $8,500. Let's also say that he could grow orchard grass instead. However, the problem with orchard grass is that the profit maxes out at $8,000. So the question becomes, do you grow orchard grass and get an $8,000 profit with 'no loss', or do you grow KY31 tall fescue and get a $8,500 profit 'only' because you 'lost' $1,500 off the 'potential' $10,000. This is overly simplified, but when you start digging into the issue, this is what has to be dealt with. No 2 producers are going to come to the same conclusion as to what works for them.

 

[Twisted]

If I said (or when I said?) supplement, I was misspeaking at that point. What I would have meant when I said that is to supplement with other forages, not supplement in the strictest sense. I'm aware that legume presence is not constant all year round, which is in part why I didn't put it as a "cure all". MANAGEMENT of the tall fescue is the key. I'm aware that over a billion dollars is lost because of KY 31 fescue each year. You have to look at the other side of the coin as well. How many billions of dollars are made/saved each year because of KY31s resistance/ability to recover to/after grazing as well as how much is saved because of it's ability to stockpile better than any other grass? A for producers who can say their herds gain better with KY31 than any other grass or variety of fescue, there isn't any grass that is going to be 'tops' all year round for grazing. When it comes to stockpile grazing, there are plenty of producers that can honestly say that there is no grass better than KY 31.

I can't say that it does in all cases because it doesn't. But let's say a producer can potentially make $10,000 grazing on his land as a mavimum. Lets Say if he grazes tall fescue, the endophyte causes him to lose $1,500 off that 10K so his profit is only $8,500. Let's also say that he could grow orchard grass instead. However, the problem with orchard grass is that the profit maxes out at $8,000. So the question becomes, do you grow orchard grass and get an $8,000 profit with 'no loss', or do you grow KY31 tall fescue and get a $8,500 profit 'only' because you 'lost' $1,500 off the 'potential' $10,000. This is overly simplified, but when you start digging into the issue, this is what has to be dealt with. No 2 producers are going to come to the same conclusion as to what works for them.

Fortunately I read a lot and just so happened to come across this post here on CT a few minutes ago. I found someone who is saying the same thing as I have said my research has shown. Do you know this guy?: https://www.cattletoday.com/threads/school-me-on-over-seeding-pasture.130455/post-1806280

 

[Little Joe]

I totally respect your opinion, but I know thoroughly what my challenges are. There is not a single producer that can honestly say that their herd will put on more weight with K-31 than any other grass or other variety of fescue. You yourself have been giving advice for supplementing K-31 to try and get the cow to eat it. Supplements aren't cheap and neither are land prices. The only way to get a decent return of investment is to put pounds on the cows. Every study has shown that K-31 significantly hinders that to the point that over a billion dollars a year is lost on it and that report was 3 years ago, I suspect that it is closer to 1 1/2 to 2 billion today. I want to manage for weight gain. sure I can plant legumes but here in the south they are gone by mid June, then what? More supplements? distillers grain? gluten? cubes?

Did you read my post on page 1? I have plenty of warm season grasses mixed in my fescue as well as legumes. As I stated in that post, dilution is the solution. You and I are within a pretty close proximity to one another so I'd think you could establish some warm season grasses and legumes in your pasture that would help you out.

 

[Ebenezer]

I totally respect your opinion, but I know thoroughly what my challenges are. There is not a single producer that can honestly say that their herd will put on more weight with K-31 than any other grass or other variety of fescue. You yourself have been giving advice for supplementing K-31 to try and get the cow to eat it. Supplements aren't cheap and neither are land prices. The only way to get a decent return of investment is to put pounds on the cows. Every study has shown that K-31 significantly hinders that to the point that over a billion dollars a year is lost on it and that report was 3 years ago, I suspect that it is closer to 1 1/2 to 2 billion today. I want to manage for weight gain. sure I can plant legumes but here in the south they are gone by mid June, then what? More supplements? distillers grain? gluten? cubes?

If you read the book, The Wonder Grass, KY31 has been controversial since much earlier than the 70's and livestock response was part of that along with the typical ego wars. There is another angle to the KY31 fescue costs. If you manage it correctly and use controlled strip grazing or however you care to meter it out in the winter time there is huge savings to not need hay or hay equipment. I buy some hay most years to wean calves and hold groups in lots. Otherwise the cow herd can go through the winter with no hay and eating fresh grass each day due to strip grazing. Sure, I could supplement and put on more pounds. But summer pastures are managed more towards warm season grasses and if you want more summer growth there are the options of grazing mixes.