Testing for Endophytes

[Twisted]

Has anyone had this done? I purchased a 50 acre pasture about a year ago and am wanting to revamp the grass. I have spent a year clearing trees, picking rocks, and installing fences and gates and now want to work on the grass, it has a decent mixture of grasses I guess but has a good deal of broom sedge growing in some areas and there are other areas that just need some love. I have already made a deal for chicken litter to be applied come spring.

I've done quite a bit of research through the years on forage grasses as I used to produce a lot of hay. Tall Fescue is the predominant native variety in the area and there is a great deal in this pasture. A couple of what I would call paddocks, have very thick stands that make me believe someone has reseeded or reworked those areas in the past. My research has taught me that the best grass to plant would be a novel variety fescue and there are a couple that were developed by the University here, I really don't have a problem with killing everything in the pasture and reseeding it but wondered if I needed to or if I would be more cost efficient to overseed the pasture I already have. I know I can have the grass tested to see if any of the grass is a novel variety or if it is the harmful endophyte native variety, but I have never done so and was wondering if anyone here had experience with doing this. If the fescue is the native endophyte variety which can be toxic and slow weight gain, I have no problem going at it with a scorched earth mentality and starting over, but if parts of it have already gone through this by a previous tenant, I don't want to waste those funds.

 

[Little Joe]

Has anyone had this done? I purchased a 50 acre pasture about a year ago and am wanting to revamp the grass. I have spent a year clearing trees, picking rocks, and installing fences and gates and now want to work on the grass, it has a decent mixture of grasses I guess but has a good deal of broom sedge growing in some areas and there are other areas that just need some love. I have already made a deal for chicken litter to be applied come spring.

I've done quite a bit of research through the years on forage grasses as I used to produce a lot of hay. Tall Fescue is the predominant native variety in the area and there is a great deal in this pasture. A couple of what I would call paddocks, have very thick stands that make me believe someone has reseeded or reworked those areas in the past. My research has taught me that the best grass to plant would be a novel variety fescue and there are a couple that were developed by the University here, I really don't have a problem with killing everything in the pasture and reseeding it but wondered if I needed to or if I would be more cost efficient to overseed the pasture I already have. I know I can have the grass tested to see if any of the grass is a novel variety or if it is the harmful endophyte native variety, but I have never done so and was wondering if anyone here had experience with doing this. If the fescue is the native endophyte variety which can be toxic and slow weight gain, I have no problem going at it with a scorched earth mentality and starting over, but if parts of it have already gone through this by a previous tenant, I don't want to waste those funds.

From my understanding the novel types just don't do as good as KY31. I hear either endophyte fescue takes back over or it's hard to maintain a good stand. I have what I assume is endophyte infected fescue because it was just what volunteered or came from hay I was feeding and I don't have problems with it but I do have a variety of other grasses mixed in such as bahia, bermuda, dallisgrass, crabgrass, clover, redtop and some other varieties of grasses so they don't just get a bite of fescue all the time. Dilution is the solution is the motto for endophyte infected fescue. I wouldn't fight what you already have, just learn to work with it. There are a lot of cattle in this part of the country that perform just fine on endophyte infected fescue. I'm betting you'll have a good seedbank in your soil of fescue and other grasses that will come up once the soil is right. Have you taken any soil samples to see what your PH is? I'm betting it's low. I prefer a good mix of warm season grasses and fescue and clovers, seems to work well in the Arkansas Ozarks. And cattle will graze that broomsedge well when it's tender. Getting your PH right will help with your broomsedge. I do have some areas that the ph is good and still have some broomsedge but not much. When I bought the farm that my house sits on, it was nothing but broomsedge and a lot of bare spots. At that time I couldn't spend much money on it so I'd just lime it when I had extra money and feed hay at different spots, finally got enough money to seed a little bermuda and fertilize and later chicken litter. Now my pasture is some of the better pasture around. I bought a new farm that borders me a few years ago, it was taken over by gum,cedar and briars. I mean it was so thick you'd get lost walking around in it. I cleaned it up and have limed it twice, sill a lot of broom sedge but starting to get fescue coming through from the seed bank. I also seeded bermuda in the ash where I burned all the brush and trees. There were probably 15 piles on the place that were huge so that's helped getting a little bermuda started. I don't know if you've tried disking any but I don't recommend it, you'll be picking up rocks for months. I disked quite a bit on my home place trying to get bermuda started, I swore after that I'd never disk again. But I have found that I can run my disk blades straight where they only make a cut in the ground that it doesn't disturb rocks too much.

 

[10-e-c-dirtfarmer]

If you farm in the K31 belt, you've either got the fungus or will get it!

 

[kenny thomas]

Soil test and spend your money there. As stated you will have KY31 whether you kill everything or not. Manage it by adding clovers. Cull any cows that dont do well on it.

 

[Ebenezer]

Legumes will deal with the endophyte, improve livestock performance and add N for the grasses as a triple plus. Farm for legumes, including seeding and reseeding when it favors the legumes, and the overall will be better. Don't just stick with one species of legumes - plant and trial multiples. Do not overlook the improved selections of orchardgrass. They also will help. If you plan to run cows, find the ones that slick off early and do not carry the fuzzy hair coat. And be sure that the minerals are adequate in copper, zinc, selenium and vitamins.

 

[Twisted]

Legumes will deal with the endophyte, improve livestock performance and add N for the grasses as a triple plus. Farm for legumes, including seeding and reseeding when it favors the legumes, and the overall will be better. Don't just stick with one species of legumes - plant and trial multiples. Do not overlook the improved selections of orchardgrass. They also will help. If you plan to run cows, find the ones that slick off early and do not carry the fuzzy hair coat. And be sure that the minerals are adequate in copper, zinc, selenium and vitamins.

I over seeded a particularly bad section back in late Spring with a mixture of winter rye, barnyard, orchard grass, red clover and novel tall fescue. It was so barren that I didn't think I would get anything to grow on it. If it weren't for the rocks moss and cactus all over it, it would have been a big wash. I picked up tons of rocks out of it, graded it, out took out a couple of big cedars, 2 were already on the ground from the wind, and seeded it. I didn't till or spray anything on it, just over seeded it and built a drag out out chain-link fence and an old gate someone before me had made out of an industrial pallet rack. I drug the rake across it several times and waited about 2 weeks on a decent enough rain to get it up. I only wish the rest of the place looked as good.

I am in the middle of some of the biggest cattle producers in the state, their pastures make mine look like it has the mange. I am taking a little advice from them and mixing it with my pocketbook to try and get a reasonable facsimile of theirs. We will see. Soil testing has been ordered to determine where and how much chicken litter to apply. It won't come until April when they clean out the house. I have learned recently that the litter in the newer operations is treated to reduce the ammonia, so it doesn't burn the chicken's feet and the time between cleanings has been extended to a year. The hay producers here are saying you still will have to hit it with Urea after the litter because of the reduced nitrogen in the litter but not near what it would need without the litter.

I asked the questions about over seeding the patches of good grass because I wonder if the established grass will give the seed a chance to get established, I'm a bit afraid to disk it because I don't want to resurrect any more buried rocks. and that drag isn't going to do much good over the grass that's there.

I used another tried and true method to determine how much good grass I have, I let the cows decide. There are some areas of the pasture with decent native grass cover that don't have a hoof print in it. Those areas cost me the same as the good grass areas, with no return on investment.

 

[10-e-c-dirtfarmer]

K31 rules to live by:
a. legumes
b. raise your own replacements, cause you keep what does best on your K31,your management style,your land.

 

[Twisted]

K31 rules to live by:
a. legumes
b. raise your own replacements, cause you keep what does best on your K31,your management style,your land.

I would agree to this to an extent. I have picked a breed of cattle that isn't as popular as some of the other breeds. I am getting too old to heal quickly and am tired of being kicked and ran over and chasing cattle all over the country. Gave that last one up a good time ago. I picked a very docile breed that I can't readily get a replacement bull for unless I travel to another state. How would I ever know how well a offspring of that bull would take to my pastures? Same with AI. I can't, but one thing I can control is what they eat and can change to what is best for the cattle with-in reason, there is a balance there. The money is in weight gain and I do not want to get ran over and kicked trying to procduce it. The big guys have already proven the benefits, I'm only trying to use what they have already spent the time and money on.

 

[Twisted]

Is there anyone on these boards that has tried anything new or different in the last 10 years? If you quit trying, you have given up and the world will pass you by.

 

[simme]

Is there anyone on these boards that has tried anything new or different in the last 10 years? If you quit trying, you have given up and the world will pass you by.

I understand that thought process. But many people have attempted to eliminate KY31 fescue and replace with new varieties. All the efforts I know of were failures after a few years. After a LOT of money and sweat were spent following directions from the "experts" as to how to solve the endophyte problem. Eventually the qualification for being an "expert" has to include not only being able to speak about the solution, but also being able to report long term successful results. I have not found anyone with long term successful results that are practical.

Some have found it more practical to manage the cattle to fit the workable grasses as opposed to manage the grass to fit the workable cattle. I guess there is balance between the two, but experience based on failure is a strong teacher. Sometimes the experts have more knowledge than experience.

But I think we all are still looking for success stories where people have successfully replaced their KY31 fescue and are happy with the results 10 years later. If anyone has a 10 year success story, I hope they will reply.

 

[anewcomer]

simme, I asked the same question a while back. No responses! Excellent advice!

 

[anewcomer]

simme, I asked the same question a while back. No responses! Excellent advice!

 

[10-e-c-dirtfarmer]

A local rumor has it that a Dr spent well into 6 figures trying to get rid of K31 fungus, on his show
farm, Hes gone but the K31 fungus is still here!
rules to live by:
c. learn to live with it.

 

[Twisted]

I understand that thought process. But many people have attempted to eliminate KY31 fescue and replace with new varieties. All the efforts I know of were failures after a few years. After a LOT of money and sweat were spent following directions from the "experts" as to how to solve the endophyte problem. Eventually the qualification for being an "expert" has to include not only being able to speak about the solution, but also being able to report long term successful results. I have not found anyone with long term successful results that are practical.

Some have found it more practical to manage the cattle to fit the workable grasses as opposed to manage the grass to fit the workable cattle. I guess there is balance between the two, but experience based on failure is a strong teacher. Sometimes the experts have more knowledge than experience.

But I think we all are still looking for success stories where people have successfully replaced their KY31 fescue and are happy with the results 10 years later. If anyone has a 10 year success story, I hope they will reply.

The results of studies and experiments from 20 years ago proved that the endophyte free varieties could not withstand the pressures of grazing and would eventually die out. Researchers and cattlemen alike learned that fescue simply can't survive in a grazed pasture without endophytes. Did they quit there and call it good? No because slow weight gain was/is a solvable problem. The results of that research was to produce a variety of fescue that had endophytes but was still very digestible. They did that, that is where the novel varieties came from. I get that the previous failures may have left a bad taste but it's has been 10 years, your boots aren't the same after ten years.

I can buy K-31 cheap, real cheap compared to novel varieties, then pour money into other feeds to try and get the weight gain. I can't raise the other feeds on my operation, I can the grass.

 

[simme]

The results of studies and experiments from 20 years ago proved that the endophyte free varieties could not withstand the pressures of grazing and would eventually die out. Researchers and cattlemen alike learned that fescue simply can't survive in a grazed pasture without endophytes. Did they quit there and call it good? No because slow weight gain was/is a solvable problem. The results of that research was to produce a variety of fescue that had endophytes but was still very digestible. They did that, that is where the novel varieties came from. I get that the previous failures may have left a bad taste but it's has been 10 years, your boots aren't the same after ten years.

I can buy K-31 cheap, real cheap compared to novel varieties, then pour money into other feeds to try and get the weight gain. I can't raise the other feeds on my operation, I can the grass.

Do you have direct experience with the newer varieties? As far as persistence during drought? And as far as avoiding the ky31 from coming back in? What varieties do you have experience with or confidence in?

 

[Twisted]

Do you have direct experience with the newer varieties? As far as persistence during drought? And as far as avoiding the ky31 from coming back in? What varieties do you have experience with or confidence in?

I do not, this is where I am relying on the experience of the other much bigger producers near me. The University's of Arkansas and Missouri have done quite a bit of research and developed a variety suitable for the area. It went to market but but was pulled from supply because of patent issues, it is back on the market now as Estancia with ArkShield. It's not cheap, and will cost me in the range of $120 an acre for just the seed. That is if I scratch everything and start over. One reason I wondered if I should test what good stand I have first.

This was published 2 years ago by The NC State Extension service and is a good read:

Comparison of Commercially Available Novel-Endophyte Tall Fescue Forage Varieties | NC State Extension Publications

This publication compares novel-endophyte tall fescue forage varieties and includes renovation planning information on choosing and purchasing seed as well as establishment and management.

content.ces.ncsu.edu

 

[Ebenezer]

"I have learned recently that the litter in the newer operations is treated to reduce the ammonia, so it doesn't burn the chicken's feet and the time between cleanings has been extended to a year. The hay producers here are saying you still will have to hit it with Urea after the litter because of the reduced nitrogen in the litter but not near what it would need without the litter."

The concern is breast scald and blindness. Alum is applied and worked in before each flock. It keeps litter moisture at 19% or less. This keep ammonia from volatizing. So, the N potential of litter is higher than when the ammonia is allowed to release. And the longer time between cleanout also increases the % manure in the litter. Alum does bind up some of the P. The short answer - go by the litter test results.

"Do you have direct experience with the newer varieties? As far as persistence during drought? And as far as avoiding the ky31 from coming back in? What varieties do you have experience with or confidence in?"

Yes - Baroptima with the novel endophyte, Estancia and MaxQ. The Persist orchardgrass outgrew them all with soil testing and resultant lime and litter. Growth ability, via stockpile height, is much less than KY31.

What I have not seen from universities is the rate of invasion of pastures by KY31 after all of the efforts have been made to rid it.

 

[Little Joe]

What I have not seen from universities is the rate of invasion of pastures by KY31 after all of the efforts have been made to rid it.

That would be my concern, KY 31 seems to pop up out of nowhere and thrive, I believe it would have years of seed bank even if you killed everything already growing.

 

[Ebenezer]

That would be my concern, KY 31 seems to pop up out of nowhere and thrive, I believe it would have years of seed bank even if you killed everything already growing.

It returns on the tractors, equipment, livestock, shoes, hay... It WILL return.

 

[Twisted]

It returns on the tractors, equipment, livestock, shoes, hay... It WILL return.

I suspect that it will return at the same rate as the other undesirable grasses if the pasture is overgrazed and uncared for.