Suggestions?

[Rosielou]

Open to suggestions about new breeds. Right now we are using an Angus bull on a commercial herd with no specific breed, to us a cow that raises a great calf, milks good, is docile is a good momma cow despite the breed. We have used Limousin, Brangus, Charolais, and Beefmaster in the past so those are options. Lower birthweight for heifers, heat resistance, easy temperament, growth, milking, etc is a must. We are located in southwest Arkansas, so nearby is also a must. Typical commercial herd, we sell bull calves/steers at weaning, right now weaning weights are 500-600 lbs, which is pleasing. The reason we're thinking is because we have alot of his daughters in the herd so we do need to think ahead. Now the majority of the herd is mine, however, he still has a great deal of a say in it.

I'm leaning towards British White for their milking, heat resistance, quality carcass, temperament, ability to forage, maternal and small form. I do prefer bigger brangus type cows, but my grandfather likes the smaller type which is why we are leaning towards British White. The only problem is the color dock, which doesn't bother me alot, but still. Around here they'll probably be mistaken for longhorns, which is a big problem. We are waiting to sell this spring's calf crop and for the cows to be bred back before we sell the current bull, so it's going to be within the next two years or so before we do take to anything to action.

For the meantime, does anyone have any suggestions?

I have thought about British White, Red Angus, Tarentaise, Gelbvieh, Hereford, Charolais(my grandfather thinks this is a good option), etc.

 

[Taurus]

While British White is nice breed, however there are other solid colored breeds do better and they won't get you docked at the sale barn. It is hard to change the sterotyping at the salebarns. Personally I will forget about British White cattle if your goal is selling market calves to the salebarn.

Red Angus, Herefords, Gelbvieh and Tarentaise x Angus makes great commerical cows while bred to a black bull, not sure about Charolais since they are usually used as terminal sire.

 

[JeffMills517]

Have you looked at Red Poll? Smaller size, docile, great mothers etc. Don't know how close you are but these folks are in Arkansas too.

http://www.esquirelandandcattle.com/

 

[Taurus]

Have you looked at Red Poll? Smaller size, docile, great mothers etc. Don't know how close you are but these folks are in Arkansas too.

http://www.esquirelandandcattle.com/

Seen really nice Red Poll and the crossbred calves pictures in another thread somewhere here.

 

[angusdave63]

i bought my first red poll bull last spring really like the cross bred calves, use them on angus and get black calves, with hybred vigor. and the heat does not seem to bother the bull either, very fertile. i ran him and a hereford bull with some cows last summer and most of the calves don't have white faces,

 

[Rosielou]

We are reading up on them and plan to contact the people here soon. Thank you for the suggestion! Do you know what thread the crossbred calves are on so I can see them? Also, if used on f1 tigers or other colors, does red overpower the other? Will they throw solid or what?

angusdave, Do the calves grow off well as a normal angus would? Do you have any pictures we could see.

I really do like them, now it's just up to my grandfather. Any other suggestions?

thanks.

 

[bigbull338]

since youve been changing breeds of bulls ever so often.i think you should go back to beefmaster bulls.because you get fast growth pounds on the calf docile replacement heifers.

 

[Rosielou]

since youve been changing breeds of bulls ever so often.i think you should go back to beefmaster bulls.because you get fast growth pounds on the calf docile replacement heifers.

With the experience we've had with them in the past, we like the easiest calving possible to minimize birth difficulties for heifers. We retain alot of replacements so we like smaller breeds to help minimize the difficulty. However, I do like beefmasters, but like I said, my grandfather likes the smaller and since he's still in the deal, we have to agree somewhere.

 

[JeffMills517]

Please keep us posted.

 

[djinwa]

Good to see someone at least considering British Whites. Too bad for the salebarn dock - don't know if there are other ways to market them. There are also other things to consider. British Whites could be the future, but when?

I keep wondering when the industry is going to wake up to the laws of physics and understand that the color of hair matters. The lighter the better to reflect solar radiation and keep them cooler. It might take more heat stress train wrecks in feedlots to change attitudes. Too bad someone can't start marketing white hair to be as wonderful as black, because there would be less heat stress and more profit. Sad that thousands of producers just have to follow a few people who decide what color to market.

http://nimss.umd.edu/homepages/home.cfm?trackID=11616

Over the past two decades black has become the preferred color of feedlot and slaughter cattle in the USA, including the Southern Region. As a result, not only has the influence of Angus cattle increased, but the black gene has been incorporated, through upgrading and selection, into a number of previously red breeds such as the Simmental, Limousin, Gelbvieh, etc. This is in spite of the fact that black colored cattle will absorb more solar radiation than red or other lighter-colored cattle. Studies by Mader et al. (2002) and Davis et al. (2003) both showed rather dramatic (up to 0.5º) lower body temperatures while under heat stress for white (dilute-colored Charolais crossbred) as compared to black feedlot steers. This advantage is comparable to the effect of the Slick hair gene for heat tolerance reported by Olson et al. (2003).

http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewconte ... ports_1996

Producers with the nonshaded
lots reported highest death loss in dark-hided
cattle. Thirty out of 36 producers indicated higher death
loss in black cattle and the other six producers
indicated higher death loss with red cattle and had no
black cattle on feed. One producer indicated only 20%
of the cattle in the pen were black, but 80% of the
death loss was black cattle.

Cattle are big heat producers because of their rumen. They once put the cow under the house to provide heat. They need every advantage to avoid heat stress, which reduces feed intake and reproductive performance. Feed is also wasted, as it takes energy to dissipate heat through increased respiration, etc.

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2007 ... 1033.shtml
http://vetmed.iastate.edu/vdpam/extensi ... eef-cattle

 

[Taurus]

Unfortunately the color of British White don't help them to attract the potential buyers at the sale barn because of Longhorns and other familiar breeds. Which that is why I recommended other breeds such as Red Angus or Red Poll

Djinwa do bring up good points.....but only if you live in South! Up north we only have short hot summer and longer winters so its pretty moot about heat tolerance.

 

[Jovid]

We are reading up on them and plan to contact the people here soon. Thank you for the suggestion! Do you know what thread the crossbred calves are on so I can see them? Also, if used on f1 tigers or other colors, does red overpower the other? Will they throw solid or what?

angusdave, Do the calves grow off well as a normal angus would? Do you have any pictures we could see.

I really do like them, now it's just up to my grandfather. Any other suggestions?

thanks.

Below are several Red Poll cross calves and a couple of bulls we have sold. We have several young bulls for sale

Red Poll / Beefmaster

Red Poll / cross bred cow

Red Poll / cross bred cow

Red Poll / Brahma

 

[brimmer X]

I experimented with a British White bull several years ago. I like the breed and believe they are good cattle. But, you will take a hit with the calves at the sale barn. It is hard to get that white spotted look or line back out of the offspring. I currently have a 1/4 british white steer now that is going to be butchered, he is colored just like a long horn. I have three heifers that are quarter BW, 2 are brindle colored the other is white with tan ears. All 3 were sired from a Braunvieh bull, and are being retained. The white heifer with tan ears is from a cow that is 1/2 brahman and 1/2 BW. She is good natured and physically the ideal cow. She took the markings of a Red British White.

There have been some good comments from various cattleman here, since you want small calves red poll sounds like a good choice. I don't have one, but seem to make a good fit for what you want.

IF I had a herd of British Whites cows, I'd consider a Char bull on them. You'd have white cattle with (probably) a black nose and hooves. I think the calves would sell well, and some heifers could be retained.

 

[jerry27150]

most anything but the british white & longhorn would be fine. around here you would take a real big hit on these

 

[TexasBred]

Good to see someone at least considering British Whites. Too bad for the salebarn dock - don't know if there are other ways to market them. There are also other things to consider. British Whites could be the future, but when?

Did you notice your article said "Black Gene"?? Doesn't have a dam thing to do wtih physics. And 1/2 of 1 degree difference in body temperature could be as little as having her head in the shade as opposed to out in the sun. I wrote an entire dissertation after a year of research on affects of yeast cultures on rectal temperatures in lactating dairy cattle and you'd be amazed at how much difference various yeast products will affect temps as apposed to relying solely on skin color.

Depending on your location British Whites will eat your lunch. In the areas where they might sell best, heat is not that much a factor day in and day out.

 

[Taurus]

IF I had a herd of British Whites cows, I'd consider a Char bull on them. You'd have white cattle with (probably) a black nose and hooves. I think the calves would sell well, and some heifers could be retained.

Seen few spotted calves out of BW cows sired by a Char bull but they do throw solid white calves or white calves with smokey nose/ear/hooves/etc. I seen few BW x hereford crosses they looks like black baldies or black "hereford", but this cross can produced red baldy, spotted and skunk calves too. Even red angus and black angus won't knock the colors off the offspring. Sounds like British White might not good breed for the commerical operations if you want an uniformed calf crop.

 

[brihop]

If consistency in calf crop, good replacements and not getting docked for "off colors" is a priority, then why experiment? Just keep on with Angus bulls like you've been doing. Use Black Angus to stamp most of 'em one color. Personally I think red is prettier but don't think they're that much more heat tolerant. Heck, I just drove through Okeechobee (deep south florida) and 80/90% of the cattle were black. If you think you need better heat tolerance then do Brangus. Just my :2cents:

Cue the rhythmic chanting "An-gus, Bran-gus, An-gus, Bran-gus"

 

[Rosielou]

The reason I like heat tolerance is because we have primarily black cattle and the heat does take a toll on them worse than the other colored cattle that we do have. Even this summer during the drought the black ones would be panting and breathing heavier than the others and neither of us liked to see that. I do realize that this summer was hotter than usual, but what is the future? If it only gets hotter, I don't want a bigger mortality rate just because of the heat. Just my thoughts.

Good to see someone at least considering British Whites. Too bad for the salebarn dock - don't know if there are other ways to market them. There are also other things to consider. British Whites could be the future, but when?

Thank you for that, that's why I decided to wait until I got out of school to take them into consideration. I do really like the breed and I wish I could have a herd of them, but now isn't the time I guess.
British White is something I want to consider having as a hobby when I get out of school. There's a good market for them outside of commercial purposes, but right now we are a commercial operation and we can't afford to have that much of a loss just because I like the color better. I do have my own personal preferences, but I do have to take into consideration that the market wants what the market wants. Until I do get out of school, I have to go with that for now.


Jovid, would you mind if tomorrow I showed my grandfather some of your stock? Shoot me a PM if you have more pictures because I know he'll like to see them

Brihop, while I do realize, as a guy told me this summer, "black is where it's at", I do have my own personal preferences. I like color more than the average commercial person, I can't let my preference get in the way of money. But since I can't have color, I figured to atleast have red or white or something other than black. No, they don't bring as much as the others but I don't want to regret myself every time I go to feed my cattle. It does sound weird, but I would rather lose a few dollars than regret my own choices.

And around here, sometimes red and white calves go for more than black calves do. Calves usually go in trends at the salebarn. If someone brings a good crop of red calves or cows, red sells the best that day. If someone brings white cows, white sells the best. While I do realize that that's gambling moreless, it's just a point that sometimes red or white or colored does sell better than black at some times. Everything except longhorns lol.

So while angus does bring most at this point, for how long, though? I like to consider anything and everything before I do something. And who knows, we might just get another angus bull. But for now, who knows


Anyway, does anyone have more suggestions that we could consider? I'm going to talk with my grandfather tomorrow about this and we'd like more breeds to consider :nod:

 

[brihop]

If you don't want black then you could get a good quality red angus bull. RA would be better (for marketability) than BW or lesser known breeds. The SE Red Angus Assn website has a breeder list. If you want more heat tolerance you could also go Red Brangus, Gert, Senepol or Senegus. Really depends on the blend you need and the % brahman already in your cows.

Write down your agreed-upon desired goals & traits of the ideal bull, then pick the breed and the animal that best fits. Good luck!

 

[CrookedTree]

Agree with brihop. Personally IF i had something against black cattle, (and i sure don't) i would go red brangus. If you're worried about heat tolerance introduce a little ear.