Terminal Sire Suggestions

[Xempt]

I have decided on the things I want to do with the genetics on my cows and what I want my genetics to be when it comes to breeding for replacement heifers, but I am still on the fence about what I want to do with my terminal sires. The cows they would be breeding will be 35-50% Salers, 15-25% Angus, and the rest either Simmental Hereford South Devon or Wagyu. I plan on doing a few different variations over the next few years and see what works best for me and what I like most. I do know what I think will be what I want but holding back the whole formula until I have tried it out for ability to replicate and longevity.

So I would love to hear peoples thoughts on what breed they think would cross well with these cows to produce good quality fast growing calves. I am not worried about color.

Also has anyone tried any typical terminal sire breed crosses as terminal sires ie: Charlouis/ Belgium Blue or like that.

I have been involved in breeding different types of animals my whole life and love genetics. I have been doing my research on cattle genetics the last few years and think I am getting a pretty firm grip on it. I look forward to your thoughts on terminal sires.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

More information is necessary in order to answer your request thoroughly. You are focusing only on breeds of cows. It is necessary to know the genetic quality of your individual cows, the area of the country in which you ranch, the size of your cow herd, and the genetic make-up of those cows. Heterosis (hybrid vigor) is optimal in a crossbreeding program, but you have a very mixed up collection of breeds here. Three breeds (or maybe four) should be a starting point for your experimenting. In any case, you are looking at 12-16 years before you can know what combination of matings will satisfy your needs - and in my opinion, you will still not have achieved the ultimate mating answer for which you are seeking. There are much easier and quicker ways to accomplish your ultimate goals in cross breeding than what you have outlined here.

BUT, to answer your original question, my suggestion would be to concentrate on Angus or Gelbvieh Terminal sires with Terminal EPD's as the uppermost selection choices. But stay away from Double-Muscled Belgian Blues and the like!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Taurus]

More information is necessary in order to answer your request thoroughly. You are focusing only on breeds of cows. It is necessary to know the genetic quality of your individual cows, the area of the country in which you ranch, the size of your cow herd, and the genetic make-up of those cows. Heterosis (hybrid vigor) is optimal in a crossbreeding program, but you have a very mixed up collection of breeds here. Three breeds (or maybe four) should be a starting point for your experimenting. In any case, you are looking at 12-16 years before you can know what combination of matings will satisfy your needs - and in my opinion, you will still not have achieved the ultimate mating answer for which you are seeking. There are much easier and quicker ways to accomplish your ultimate goals in cross breeding than what you have outlined here.

BUT, to answer your original question, my suggestion would be to concentrate on Angus or Gelbvieh Terminal sires with Terminal EPD's as the uppermost selection choices. But stay away from Double-Muscled Belgian Blues and the like!

DOC HARRIS

And why is that?

 

[skeeter swatter]

More information is necessary in order to answer your request thoroughly. You are focusing only on breeds of cows. It is necessary to know the genetic quality of your individual cows, the area of the country in which you ranch, the size of your cow herd, and the genetic make-up of those cows. Heterosis (hybrid vigor) is optimal in a crossbreeding program, but you have a very mixed up collection of breeds here. Three breeds (or maybe four) should be a starting point for your experimenting. In any case, you are looking at 12-16 years before you can know what combination of matings will satisfy your needs - and in my opinion, you will still not have achieved the ultimate mating answer for which you are seeking. There are much easier and quicker ways to accomplish your ultimate goals in cross breeding than what you have outlined here.

BUT, to answer your original question, my suggestion would be to concentrate on Angus or Gelbvieh Terminal sires with Terminal EPD's as the uppermost selection choices. But stay away from Double-Muscled Belgian Blues and the like!

DOC HARRIS

And why is that?

Because they dock the hell out of them!

 

[Taurus]

And why is that?

Because they dock the be nice out of them!

Based on your personal experiences or just an assumption? I don't recalled that a DM animal ever come tho a sale barn that much.

 

[Xempt]

I mostly listed the amount of breeds to see if anyone would give input into what they thought would work best with the terminal sire that they thought would work best. I will be ranching in central Florida.

I will expound a little more on what my plan is. I know this isn't going to be a quick couple of year thing. I am in this for the long haul that is why I have spent the last four years going to farms, experiencing different things, getting AI certification, making connections, and creating my plan. My plan focuses on buying and raising stocker calves to maintain some income, but mainly my breedings will be kept to grow and then be culled to strict standards.

I will start with two different cow herds to have two different plans of action and measure results. Even though my operation is meant to be marketed directly to consumers I want to steer away from using Brahman in case some of my cattle needed to be marketed toward slaughterhouses or feedlots. After much research, I have found that Senepol seems to be a good alternative to the Brahman.

My first herd will have Senepol for heat and insect resistance, Salers for maternal, and South Devon for marbling and the hybrid vigor it offers as being a British breed compared to a continental breed. I feel that this combination will give a very strong cow with good maternal instincts, high hybrid vigor, and quality carcass.

My second herd will have the same Senepol, but add in Angus and Gelbvieh. This once again should offer hybrid vigor and other qualities toward the end game.

In each of the herds, the heifers will be bred back to a bull or crossed bull that is the breed that they have the least percentage of. Breedings will be aimed at keeping Senepol as close to the highest percentage. Senepol are also known for passing on their own color to their offspring.

The last herd will be my SUPER BULL herd. This is where the longest amount of experimentation will take and majoring culling to a high standard. This obviously is my ideal terminal sire herd. This is definitely where I do not have a clear image of what I want to do for breed. I have finally narrowed it down but my list still is long. I have some time to decide though. I have narrowed it to Charolois, Romagnola, Maine-Anjou, Simmental and Limousin. Ultimately I would like to narrow it down to three different breeds that I want to focus my energy toward. My top three right now are probably Charolois, Romagnola, and Simmental. This is how this program will go. Start with 3-5 cows of each breed, AI those to different breeds. Those offspring will be kept. The offspring will be bred to each other too give a three breed cross. At each stage, the cows in the other two herds will be bred to bulls from my SUPER BULL herd and results be strictly documented. Ultimately adding in some Angus or South Devon for marbling. So hopefully 10-15 years down the road, I have my SUPER BULL to be able to breed to my ultimate cows in my other two herds that hopefully have become one herd.

I know that it is very involved and many would say I am trying to do too much but genetics need to constantly evolve and grow and that can't be done without risks being taken.

Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated on both projects but especially the SUPER BULL herd.

 

[WarEagle73]

The biggest issue I see is finding quality in some of those breeds in your area. South Devon, Salers, Romagnola, and Maine-Anjou are not overly popular breeds to begin with and finding the exact type and quality in any quantity may be difficult (I'm not sure on the scale of your operation). Senepol might also fall into that category, but Florida is where the majority of those cattle are (I'm with you on the Senepol in place of Brahman). Breeds like Angus, Hereford, Red Angus, Charolais, Simmental, etc. have a much larger genetic base to choose from and are probably easier to source anywhere in the country.

With the cowherd you described in the first post, a true terminal Charolais bull would give you good, growthy calves but you might also think about looking at the carcass oriented Angus and Red Angus bulls. MARC data I saw recently showed that those breeds are not far behind, if at all, the "terminal" breeds in terms of growth and can give you an extra shot of marbling if you choose the right genetics.

As far as the multiple herds and super bull and all that, in my opinion thinking outside the box is a great thing. We don't all have to do it the same and sometimes the one person with the "craziest" idea is the one that has it all figured out. Using that many breeds on the cow and bull sides will create a herd that never produces any consistency in the first several generations. My dream herd would be similar to what you describe, but I would use a Senepol, Angus, Hereford rotation on the cowherd (giving a carcass quality, maternal type cow) bred back to a growthy carcass focused Char or Simmental (which ever could provide the best growth and carcass quality combined).

 

[Xempt]

The biggest issue I see is finding quality in some of those breeds in your area. South Devon, Salers, Romagnola, and Maine-Anjou are not overly popular breeds to begin with and finding the exact type and quality in any quantity may be difficult (I'm not sure on the scale of your operation). Senepol might also fall into that category, but Florida is where the majority of those cattle are (I'm with you on the Senepol in place of Brahman). Breeds like Angus, Hereford, Red Angus, Charolais, Simmental, etc. have a much larger genetic base to choose from and are probably easier to source anywhere in the country.

With the cowherd you described in the first post, a true terminal Charolais bull would give you good, growthy calves but you might also think about looking at the carcass oriented Angus and Red Angus bulls. MARC data I saw recently showed that those breeds are not far behind, if at all, the "terminal" breeds in terms of growth and can give you an extra shot of marbling if you choose the right genetics.

As far as the multiple herds and super bull and all that, in my opinion thinking outside the box is a great thing. We don't all have to do it the same and sometimes the one person with the "craziest" idea is the one that has it all figured out. Using that many breeds on the cow and bull sides will create a herd that never produces any consistency in the first several generations. My dream herd would be similar to what you describe, but I would use a Senepol, Angus, Hereford rotation on the cowherd (giving a carcass quality, maternal type cow) bred back to a growthy carcass focused Char or Simmental (which ever could provide the best growth and carcass quality combined).

I definitely agree on being able to find quality in those breeds, but I am in no hurry. I will work on raising stocker cattle to fulfill my demand to start out with and slowly grow my cow/calf operation over time if I have to. I also know that using that many breeds will take a while to get consistency. I figure probably be into it 10 to 15 years once my herd is built up before I start seeing consistency. My outlook on it is people are pretty much always going to want some beef. Hopefully once I'm getting consistency I see the fruits of my labor pay off.

See now you have me second guessing myself a little. I really originally thought about putting some Hereford in there but switched it out for South Devon. Right at this moment I am not near my research and can't remember why I decided on the switch. I may switch it back in. The South Devon and the Gelbvieh were kind of the ones that I was unsure on. I have heard really good things about both. The Senepol is a definite no questions or indecision on. I wanted the Salers in there because I know that they have really good fertility, calving ease, and maternal instincts. I know that the Senepol has these as well but figured the hybrid vigor of crossing them would help a lot.

Are you saying do a three way cross with the Angus, Hereford, and Senepol? Hmmm that is definitely an idea. In your thoughts would you put that in the place of the Senepol, Salers, and South Devon herd or the Senepol, Angus, and Gelbvieh herd and why that one? Any other three way crosses you think would be better.

On the terminal sire front, I have narrowed it down to Charolois, Romagnola, and Simmental. I definitely will be throwing in some Angus on the terminal sire front as well. I think ultimately it will depend on where I am at once I am getting consistency out of the herd. Until then I probably will play around with a few different things and combinations.

I have to say I like forums a lot. It is good to get other peoples opinions. It helps me take a step back from what I have been looking at for so long and look at it from another angle. I have a few months to change things up if I want.

 

[glacierridge]

If you are looking for terminal that you finish out yourself, you'll never find anything more efficient than double muscled BB and the like.
Actually looking at our records the best dams are 3/4 BB bred back to something like a high grow Simmy. They are a freight train of grow that can't be stopped.

Sale barn as a feeder, I can't give you an answer on how they go, we've never had to sell anything as a feeder, we've no need.

 

[Jake]

Where are you located? Maybe you said and I missed it. I dont' see any reason to use senepol unless you are in the south and are needing some heat tolerance. Sticking with breeds such as angus, Hereford, gelvieh and Simmental will allow you multiple marketing opportunities and make your cattle much more merchandisable than going with oddities. There are deeper more established gene pools that allow for you to much easier choose the genetics that will suit what you're trying to accomplish.

 

[CKC1586]

If you are looking for terminal that you finish out yourself, you'll never find anything more efficient than double muscled BB and the like.
Actually looking at our records the best dams are 3/4 BB bred back to something like a high grow Simmy. They are a freight train of grow that can't be stopped.

Sale barn as a feeder, I can't give you an answer on how they go, we've never had to sell anything as a feeder, we've no need.

Or maybe consider Piedmontese, talk to a breeder get first hand answers to your questions. Don't depend on speculation and innuendo. Ask who he / she has sold to and talk to those folks.
Informed decisions are always better decisions.
Or talk to our Canadian friend about the Gelbvieh.....(hillsdown) lots of options out there.