Startup breed questions

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MarkM

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I am almost finished getting my farm set up for rotational grazing and would like some input on best breeds as well as opinions on my plans.

My ultimate goal is to direct market grass-fed beef. However, it will some time to realize a cash flow from that part of the operation. In the interim, what would be a good plan for generating a cash flow? Yearlings? Calves?

In my part of the country, 20 miles southeast of Ada, Black Angus seems to rule. I assume that any short term plans should use a black animal. However, I would prefer a red breed for my long term grass-fed plans.

All ideas, opinions, suggestions are appreciated. I am posting this in the "Beginners" as well as "Breeds" forums.
 
MarkM":1g2ldf17 said:
I am almost finished getting my farm set up for rotational grazing and would like some input on best breeds as well as opinions on my plans.

My ultimate goal is to direct market grass-fed beef. However, it will some time to realize a cash flow from that part of the operation. In the interim, what would be a good plan for generating a cash flow? Yearlings? Calves?

In my part of the country, 20 miles southeast of Ada, Black Angus seems to rule. I assume that any short term plans should use a black animal. However, I would prefer a red breed for my long term grass-fed plans. You could use Red Angus for the red breed and use a Black Angus bull on them.

All ideas, opinions, suggestions are appreciated. I am posting this in the "Beginners" as well as "Breeds" forums.
 
The answer seems to be in your own backyard..............

"In study after study, South Devon have risen to the top on carcass quality. When compared with 16 other breeds at MARC, the South Devon breed had the highest meat tenderness score of all beef breeds. These earlier tenderness findings from MARC have been confirmed by recent trials at Oklahoma State University"

We have been doing "grass-fed" for a long time (some ppl prefer it) and what some other folks say is that the grass-fed beef just doesn't taste as good as the grain-fed beef and I tend to agree. That being said, you have to be more particular about the breeds of cattle you use for grass-fed, as you don't want to start out behind the 8 ball.

There are also some other issues you need to think about before you jump in on grass-fed.

1. How do you plan on aging your grass-fed carcass, as the answer to that question can help you pick the best breed or breed cross to use for your situation.

The commercial beef business uses wet-aging of beef, which hopefully you will NOT be using, as all they are striving for is Choice YG 2 (for a grain fed animal). They want the leanest carcass they can get, so they don't have to trim BF. Straight Hf and Straight An tend to pack on the external fat, as well as Hf x An to the tune of YG 3-4.

Dry-aging is the traditional way of aging beef carcasses, so you really want a bit more external fat as it serves as an insulator to the beef carcass allowing you to take the aging process past 14 days into day 17 or even 21. The longer you can hang that carcass the more tender it will become and you will need this advantage as a grass-fed beef producer. I've seen some ppl take this a little too far, so I prefer 17 days.

2. Forage base is as important as cattle breeds you choose. I have a neighbor that raises the worst grass-fed beef I have ever eaten and the more you chew it the bigger it gets in your mouth, which is not a pleasant eating experience.

What you have to do on your grass-fed calves is to effectively keep the nutritional plane on an ever-increasing (positive growth) rate. This isn't easy to do and this is where most ppl fail in the grass-fed business.

How to maintain a positive nutritional plane throughout the finishing phase is not that hard, but it does take some planning. This can get complicated, but I will give you the short version.
a. For brood cows, just maintain their nutritional requirements like you would any other cow.

b. For calves, you plan to market, the game is much different.

You have to be able to overlap your forages, so that at no time do you ever crash their nutritional plane.

For example:
We calve in Oct and wean calves in May. By the time they are a full ruminant animal they are grazing Rye (Jan, Feb, Mar) (still on their mama) and by April up to weaning, May, they are on Clover, so that even while still nursing their mama we have maintained an increasing nutritional plane for the highest rate of gain pre-weaning.

At weaning time (this years grass-fed calves AWW were #575) are maintained on clover (which they are already accustomed to) up until our Millet is prime grazing, usually by mid-May. They are grazed on Millet all summer (May, June, July, August), where we can expect a 2.25 ADG minimum. August 1st we re-plant millet, so that in the end of August, we have a new crop of prime grazing to push us into October. This maintains that ever-increasing nutritional plane.

October 1 as they are coming up to 12 months of age, they are all weighing about 925 plus. We then feed them alfalfa hay through October up to November 15th and maintain weight gain of about 2.25 lbs per day, which puts them all over 1025#.

We get them back on rye grazing about mid-November and supplement that grazing with alfalfa hay up until harvest time as the finishing phase is complete. They normally will be ready for harvest at ~~ 1225 - 1325#.

This is time consuming to do a really good job with your cattle and any that lag behind in weight gain are removed early.

3. Cattle breeds are really important too, but how you plan to age your carcass should help you decide. I, personally, don't like Red Angus for several reasons, the most important being their rate of gain post-weaning. However there is one Red Angus bull that we have used in the past that does really well, which is an AI sire through ABS, "Brown Commitment". He has exceptional growth and carcass merit qualities, but he is definitely not the norm. I like Horned Hereford cows, they do well. Black Angus do well and Hf x An do well.

South Devon (SD) cows will get it done as I believe they are better mamas than these above. As for bulls to use on SD cows--- I refuse to give up my genetics there, but I went Red.

JS





MarkM":3fyc0tiz said:
I am almost finished getting my farm set up for rotational grazing and would like some input on best breeds as well as opinions on my plans.

My ultimate goal is to direct market grass-fed beef. However, it will some time to realize a cash flow from that part of the operation. In the interim, what would be a good plan for generating a cash flow? Yearlings? Calves?

In my part of the country, 20 miles southeast of Ada, Black Angus seems to rule. I assume that any short term plans should use a black animal. However, I would prefer a red breed for my long term grass-fed plans.

All ideas, opinions, suggestions are appreciated. I am posting this in the "Beginners" as well as "Breeds" forums.
 
You probably should look at Kit Pharo's program if you are truly wanting to raise grass fed beef. Just google for Pharo cattle. The most important part will be getting the right type of cows to get the final product. Smaller framed easier keeping type cows will be the best way instead of buying the right bull and using them on Lg framed later maturing cows.
 
Justsimmental
I won't argue with your feeding program as I do not feel like I have the expertise, it may in fact be VERY SOUND. However you make some statements regarding BEEF that are not necessarily factual.

The commercial beef business uses wet-aging of beef, which hopefully you will NOT be using, as all they are striving for is Choice YG 2 (for a grain fed animal). They want the leanest carcass they can get, so they don't have to trim BF. Straight Hf and Straight An tend to pack on the external fat, as well as Hf x An to the tune of YG 3-4.
They use this process NOT because they are striving for a YG2 carcass but because it stops shrink in the aging process. What they WANT is a upper 2/3's choice product and the only way they can get that with any consistancy is with YG 3-4 carcasses. You are correct in your assumption that it works better for leaner primal cuts than what you call dry age.

Dry-aging is the traditional way of aging beef carcasses, so you really want a bit more external fat as it serves as an insulator to the beef carcass allowing you to take the aging process past 14 days into day 17 or even 21. The longer you can hang that carcass the more tender it will become and you will need this advantage as a grass-fed beef producer. I've seen some ppl take this a little too far, so I prefer 17 days.

What you call "dry aging" in not true dry aging it is simply hanging a carcass for a couple of weeks and hoping for the best. I won't go into another long winded explanation of true dry age as I have already done it here many times. I will say however that 17 days will only sufficiently tenderize the most tender cuts of the animal at best. The generally accepted Minimum for aging of steak/primals is 21 days for ribeyes and it goes up from there. I have restuarant clients who Wet Age striploins for 40 days and top butts for up to 60 days.

:2cents:
 
3waycross":2idc7cjr said:
Justsimmental
I won't argue with your feeding program as I do not feel like I have the expertise, it may in fact be VERY SOUND. However you make some statements regarding BEEF that are not necessarily factual.

The commercial beef business uses wet-aging of beef, which hopefully you will NOT be using, as all they are striving for is Choice YG 2 (for a grain fed animal). They want the leanest carcass they can get, so they don't have to trim BF. Straight Hf and Straight An tend to pack on the external fat, as well as Hf x An to the tune of YG 3-4.

They use this process NOT because they are striving for a YG2 carcass but because it stops shrink in the aging process. What they WANT is a upper 2/3's choice product and the only way they can get that with any consistancy is with YG 3-4 carcasses. You are correct in your assumption that it works better for leaner primal cuts than what you call dry age.

The commercial beef business uses wet-aging --fact... they want lean carcasses they dont have to trim (e.g. Choice YG 2) Wet-aging in a bag.
YG 3-4 --they trim---- and those guys getting premiums lose that premium due to trim.


Dry-aging is the traditional way of aging beef carcasses, so you really want a bit more external fat as it serves as an insulator to the beef carcass allowing you to take the aging process past 14 days into day 17 or even 21. The longer you can hang that carcass the more tender it will become and you will need this advantage as a grass-fed beef producer. I've seen some ppl take this a little too far, so I prefer 17 days.

What you call "dry aging" in not true dry aging it is simply hanging a carcass for a couple of weeks and hoping for the best. (not wanting to argue about this --this is just a false statement)

I won't go into another long winded explanation of true dry age as I have already done it here many times. I will say however that 17 days will only sufficiently tenderize the most tender cuts of the animal at best. (depends on too many factors and no need to generalize --now))

The generally accepted Minimum for aging of steak/primals is 21 days for ribeyes and it goes up from there. I have restuarant clients who Wet Age striploins for 40 days and top butts for up to 60 days.

I think we are fairly close in agreement, but hanging a carcass for 17 days and hoping for the best doesn't even get near dry-aging, I didn't want to get that in depth with it here for the obvious reasons, but you will fairly confuse the masses talking about wet-aging beef under the dry-aging discussion

There is no reason to wet-age striploins for 40 to 60 days unless you are using Limmi beef. :cboy:
 
JustSimmental":2zlqpo2l said:
3waycross":2zlqpo2l said:
Justsimmental
I won't argue with your feeding program as I do not feel like I have the expertise, it may in fact be VERY SOUND. However you make some statements regarding BEEF that are not necessarily factual.

The commercial beef business uses wet-aging of beef, which hopefully you will NOT be using, as all they are striving for is Choice YG 2 (for a grain fed animal). They want the leanest carcass they can get, so they don't have to trim BF. Straight Hf and Straight An tend to pack on the external fat, as well as Hf x An to the tune of YG 3-4.

They use this process NOT because they are striving for a YG2 carcass but because it stops shrink in the aging process. What they WANT is a upper 2/3's choice product and the only way they can get that with any consistancy is with YG 3-4 carcasses. You are correct in your assumption that it works better for leaner primal cuts than what you call dry age.

The commercial beef business uses wet-aging --fact... they want lean carcasses they dont have to trim (e.g. Choice YG 2) Wet-aging in a bag.
YG 3-4 --they trim---- and those guys getting premiums lose that premium due to trim.


Dry-aging is the traditional way of aging beef carcasses, so you really want a bit more external fat as it serves as an insulator to the beef carcass allowing you to take the aging process past 14 days into day 17 or even 21. The longer you can hang that carcass the more tender it will become and you will need this advantage as a grass-fed beef producer. I've seen some ppl take this a little too far, so I prefer 17 days.

What you call "dry aging" in not true dry aging it is simply hanging a carcass for a couple of weeks and hoping for the best. (not wanting to argue about this --this is just a false statement)

I won't go into another long winded explanation of true dry age as I have already done it here many times. I will say however that 17 days will only sufficiently tenderize the most tender cuts of the animal at best. (depends on too many factors and no need to generalize --now))

The generally accepted Minimum for aging of steak/primals is 21 days for ribeyes and it goes up from there. I have restuarant clients who Wet Age striploins for 40 days and top butts for up to 60 days.

I think we are fairly close in agreement, but hanging a carcass for 17 days and hoping for the best doesn't even get near dry-aging, I didn't want to get that in depth with it here for the obvious reasons, but you will fairly confuse the masses talking about wet-aging beef under the dry-aging discussion

There is no reason to wet-age striploins for 40 to 60 days unless you are using Limmi beef. :cboy:

Your best comment ever! :lol:
 
MarkM,

I am 11 years into what you are endevouring to do. As far as cash flow you can play any of the traditional conventional practices. But with grassfed, you are looking at 2 years from the time a cow calves to receive any income. You might be able to cheat that by a couple of months due to your longer season than mine. Just remember that changing breeding course halfway through really sets you back. Switched to a particular line of Herefords and have never looked back. You are very smart to stay red. The type of animal you decide will really set you up for success or failure. Sometimes it is tough enough dealing with seasons and what nature throws at us and you need the right genetics to capitalize on a low energy system. Most grassfed direct-marketing operations up here roughly take 10 years for everything to come together.

Feel free to p.m. me and I would be happy to tell what I am doing.
 
What you call "dry aging" in not true dry aging it is simply hanging a carcass for a couple of weeks and hoping for the best. (not wanting to argue about this --this is just a false statement)

Justsimmental
The next time you call me a liar you need to KNOW what you are talking about.

The following is a link to the Texas A&M report on TRUE dry aging. If you will take the time to download it you will see NO hanging carcasses in the pictures.
What you refer to as "DRY AGE" simply hanging a whole or split carcass in a cooler under "DRY" conditions and watching the whole thing shrink up to 2% per day. In reality DRY AGING occurs under carefull controlled conditions which include humidity, temperature and bacterial controls.
For what it's worth one of us has walked through a high volume dry age room and seen this process in operation, and has sold beef in every possible configuration for 30 years...........and I am pretty sure it isn't you.
http://www.beefresearch.org/CMDocs/Beef ... 20Beef.pdf

This is what true dry aging looks like
thumbnail3.jpg


NOT THIS
thumbnailCAYKELX5.jpg
 
Didn't know there were more than one way to dry age beef. I do know , that last pic, the longer it hangs the stronger the taste gets due to shrinkage. Backfat aids in keeping the shrinkage at a minimum.
As far as tenderness goes, one of our Angus herd sire is a 10 for tenderness.. can't get better than that. I also have several females dna shows a 9. So much not being tender and being Angus. They are also top marblers.
Valerie
 
JustSimmental":1lori6cz said:
3waycross":1lori6cz said:
Justsimmental
I won't argue with your feeding program as I do not feel like I have the expertise, it may in fact be VERY SOUND. However you make some statements regarding BEEF that are not necessarily factual.

The commercial beef business uses wet-aging of beef, which hopefully you will NOT be using, as all they are striving for is Choice YG 2 (for a grain fed animal). They want the leanest carcass they can get, so they don't have to trim BF. Straight Hf and Straight An tend to pack on the external fat, as well as Hf x An to the tune of YG 3-4.

They use this process NOT because they are striving for a YG2 carcass but because it stops shrink in the aging process. What they WANT is a upper 2/3's choice product and the only way they can get that with any consistancy is with YG 3-4 carcasses. You are correct in your assumption that it works better for leaner primal cuts than what you call dry age.

The commercial beef business uses wet-aging --fact... they want lean carcasses they dont have to trim (e.g. Choice YG 2) Wet-aging in a bag.
YG 3-4 --they trim---- and those guys getting premiums lose that premium due to trim.


Dry-aging is the traditional way of aging beef carcasses, so you really want a bit more external fat as it serves as an insulator to the beef carcass allowing you to take the aging process past 14 days into day 17 or even 21. The longer you can hang that carcass the more tender it will become and you will need this advantage as a grass-fed beef producer. I've seen some ppl take this a little too far, so I prefer 17 days.

What you call "dry aging" in not true dry aging it is simply hanging a carcass for a couple of weeks and hoping for the best. (not wanting to argue about this --this is just a false statement)

I won't go into another long winded explanation of true dry age as I have already done it here many times. I will say however that 17 days will only sufficiently tenderize the most tender cuts of the animal at best. (depends on too many factors and no need to generalize --now))

The generally accepted Minimum for aging of steak/primals is 21 days for ribeyes and it goes up from there. I have restuarant clients who Wet Age striploins for 40 days and top butts for up to 60 days.

I think we are fairly close in agreement, but hanging a carcass for 17 days and hoping for the best doesn't even get near dry-aging, I didn't want to get that in depth with it here for the obvious reasons, but you will fairly confuse the masses talking about wet-aging beef under the dry-aging discussion

There is no reason to wet-age striploins for 40 to 60 days unless you are using Limmi beef. :cboy:


If you will go back and READ what I said I did not advocate aging Strips over 40 days. Other than the obvious insult to Limmi breeders what is your point and what actual evidence do you have to prove this statement. I have worked with Landmark Restaurants who had aging rooms that you could park a truck in and used carefully monitored temperature aging programs to age their Top Butts up to 60 days on a regular basis. Since I was selling them their meat at the time I KNOW for a fact that it was IBP and included all breeds and was Choice or better. We are not talking about someone selling 3-5 head a year off the farm, we are talking a meat operation that used a couple of thousand pounds of top butts alone a month. They served a fork tender product that was and still is cooked on a flatop grill of all things.
BTW I had a steak cut off a strip last night that had been aged for 38 days from kill date. It was from our Imperial beef program which is 100% Holstein. The marbling was abundant and it ate like butter.
What I don't want anyone to come away with is the idea that they HAVE to age meat this long. The majority of the aging process is accomplished by 28 days but in large muscle cuts(Top Butts) they do in fact benefit from more aging.
The other thing I want to make abundantly clear is that wet aging meat in your referigerator or even in the avg Restaurant walkin is not like the process I am describing. Out meat aging coolers are set at a constant 28/29 degrees, that is at least 3 to 5 degrees colder than what most meat is stored at.
One other thing most folks don't know is that in most of the commercial kill facilities they are now spraying the primals with an antibacterial bath before they are cryovacced. This also allows them to be aged in the bag for a longer period of time.
 
Anyway, Grass-fed is a challenge for several reasons:
1. Maintaining an ever-increasing nutritional plane on forage can be difficult.
2. Some breeds of cattle do not work well in this endeavor.
3. And last but not least, even with all your hard work --if that beef doesn't meet the consumers specifications, you wont have many return customers.

Something else to think about:
There are plenty more consumers that prefer grain-fed than there are that want grass-fed. plus getting a grain-fed calf ready for harvest takes less time.. Less of your time to the finished product just makes more sense to me,

JS
 
For what it's worth one of us has walked through a high volume dry age room and seen this process in operation, and has sold beef in every possible configuration for 30 years...........and I am pretty sure it isn't you.


Very astute observation my man. :clap:
 
Ok, Now I'm good and confused ... probably age but just in case it is possible to get the picture correctly.
What do you call aging carcasses at the butcher for 14 days if it's not dry aging?
Valerie
 
vclavin":22c5zp3r said:
Ok, Now I'm good and confused ... probably age but just in case it is possible to get the picture correctly.
What do you call aging carcasses at the butcher for 14 days if it's not dry aging?
Valerie
I;ve always just called it "hanging"
 
vclavin":unjqo9ki said:
Ok, Now I'm good and confused ... probably age but just in case it is possible to get the picture correctly.
What do you call aging carcasses at the butcher for 14 days if it's not dry aging?
Valerie

Yea I don't mean to oversimplify but if you are aging and it is not "wet aging" then it has to be "dry aging". Unless there is some specific USDA regulation (and the way US gov likes to write rules there very well could be) I don't see ANYthing wrong at all with marketing that as beef that has been "aged" or "dry aged". The consumer does not know the difference anyway and I don't know that I could really taste the difference between 14 day aged beef and 17 day aged beef anyway. If it is marketed with the tag "dry aged for 14 days" I THINK all the bases would be covered.
 
vclavin":2shx2s85 said:
Ok, Now I'm good and confused ... probably age but just in case it is possible to get the picture correctly.
What do you call aging carcasses at the butcher for 14 days if it's not dry aging?
Valerie


Dun got it right. Everything else is just marketing.

BTW it doesn't hurt a carcass to "hang" like that but unless it is under bacteriostatic lights or in a room with bacteriostatic air filters it can grow bacteria at a pretty rapid rate., also the temps had better be in that 29 to 31 degree range to slow the bacterial growth also. The thing to be aware of is that the meat doesn't tenderize from bacterial action, it tenderizes primarily from enzyme action.

For what it's worth; my training was that bacteria does not grow in a linear progression as in 30,000ppm at 29 degrees and 40,000 at 30 degrees. We were taught that it grows in a geometric progression,as in doubling for every degree increase in temps,30,60,120,240,000ppm
 
3waycross":238mc34g said:
vclavin":238mc34g said:
Ok, Now I'm good and confused ... probably age but just in case it is possible to get the picture correctly.
What do you call aging carcasses at the butcher for 14 days if it's not dry aging?
Valerie


Dun got it right. Everything else is just marketing.

BTW it doesn't hurt a carcass to "hang" like that but unless it is under bacteriostatic lights or in a room with bacteriostatic air filters it can grow bacteria at a pretty rapid rate., also the temps had better be in that 29 to 31 degree range to slow the bacterial growth also. The thing to be aware of is that the meat doesn't tenderize from bacterial action, it tenderizes primarily from enzyme action.

For what it's worth; my training was that bacteria does not grow in a linear progression as in 30,000ppm at 29 degrees and 40,000 at 30 degrees. We were taught that it grows in a geometric progression,as in doubling for every degree increase in temps,30,60,120,240,000ppm

Ok, what difference does it make on how it gets tender? Genetics, bacteria, enzymes?
Valerie
 
vclavin":vecevdom said:
3waycross":vecevdom said:
vclavin":vecevdom said:
Ok, Now I'm good and confused ... probably age but just in case it is possible to get the picture correctly.
What do you call aging carcasses at the butcher for 14 days if it's not dry aging?
Valerie


Dun got it right. Everything else is just marketing.

BTW it doesn't hurt a carcass to "hang" like that but unless it is under bacteriostatic lights or in a room with bacteriostatic air filters it can grow bacteria at a pretty rapid rate., also the temps had better be in that 29 to 31 degree range to slow the bacterial growth also. The thing to be aware of is that the meat doesn't tenderize from bacterial action, it tenderizes primarily from enzyme action.

For what it's worth; my training was that bacteria does not grow in a linear progression as in 30,000ppm at 29 degrees and 40,000 at 30 degrees. We were taught that it grows in a geometric progression,as in doubling for every degree increase in temps,30,60,120,240,000ppm

Ok, what difference does it make on how it gets tender? Genetics, bacteria, enzymes?
Valerie


I'd say genetics 1st, environment second, and Aging(enzymes) third. The other thing to consider is how Beefy do you want it. Wet aging generates a much milder flavor profile. Hanging age is beefier and, true "Dry Age" really concentrates the flavor. To me though it imparts an "off" flavor that I really don't care for.
 

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