Start-up's

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CB is looking at it from a cost per revenue dollar standpoint, which is the way a businessman should look at it IMHO. Correct me if I'm wrong CB, but you're NOT saying that you can't make money raising your own hay, just that by outsourcing your hay production(buying your hay), you are using that land for cows instead which increases your revenue and decreases your cost creating a lower cost per revenue dollar per acre compared to growing and cutting your own hay. Lower cost per revenue dollar = greater profit margin.

 

[dun]

CB is looking at it from a cost per revenue dollar standpoint, which is the way a businessman should look at it IMHO. Correct me if I'm wrong CB, but you're NOT saying that you can't make money raising your own hay, just that by outsourcing your hay production(buying your hay), you are using that land for cows instead which increases your revenue and decreases your cost creating a lower cost per revenue dollar per acre compared to growing and cutting your own hay. Lower cost per revenue dollar = greater profit margin.

I didn't follow all of that but what it boils down to is you make more profit, not money, profit. Or in some cases a smaller loss.

dun

 

[Caustic Burno]

Guys this is simple business the least amount of equipment you have the more profitable you are. I have not always used the best judgement when comes to this.
Every time a tractor cranks up it cost you money, every time a hay baler rolls over it cost you money.
This is a business of cutting cost.
Having a hay field cost you money in land that could be producing beef.
This is a business of getting old Belle's cost down from 400 bucks a year to 300 bucks a year.
The reason so many operations are not profitable is they think that all of this equipment is a nessacity and it is not it comes at a high cost.
There is a younger rancher I greatly admire and respect that has opened my eyes on a lot of this.
I thought I was tighter than a crabs ass when it came to money.
He has a more frugal approach to the business than I do and is more profitable than I and that is what it is all about.

 

[Caustic Burno]

CB is looking at it from a cost per revenue dollar standpoint, which is the way a businessman should look at it IMHO. Correct me if I'm wrong CB, but you're NOT saying that you can't make money raising your own hay, just that by outsourcing your hay production(buying your hay), you are using that land for cows instead which increases your revenue and decreases your cost creating a lower cost per revenue dollar per acre compared to growing and cutting your own hay. Lower cost per revenue dollar = greater profit margin.

Yep thats what I said or tried to say or screwd up saying.

 

[backhoeboogie]

CB is looking at it from a cost per revenue dollar standpoint, which is the way a businessman should look at it IMHO. Correct me if I'm wrong CB, but you're NOT saying that you can't make money raising your own hay, just that by outsourcing your hay production(buying your hay), you are using that land for cows instead which increases your revenue and decreases your cost creating a lower cost per revenue dollar per acre compared to growing and cutting your own hay. Lower cost per revenue dollar = greater profit margin.

Yep thats what I said or tried to say or screwd up saying.

CB that is all well in good, but each person's situation is going to render them in a slightly different situation. Even before the drought you couldn't get good hay for $30 a bale in this area.

It costs me $13.50 to have someone else cut, rake, and bale the hay and they do a really nice job. I can make "other" money digging and hauling rock while they are doing that. More money than they are making off of my hay work. So I am better off hiring that done. And I get good fertilized hay.

Now that $20 your speaking of. If I figure my fertilizer cost too, I am right there with you. This year there were also irrigation cost and it was expensive. Sold enough hay to get all of mine free tho and then some.

 

[aplusmnt]

I guess what I am gathering from this Hay discussion is the combination of Hay and Cows might not be the most profitable per acre of land.

That a person should crunch the numbers of either doing Cows only or Hay only. With cows only you have less equipment and time invested if you buy your hay.

With Hay only you spend your expenses on equipment instead of upkeep of a cow and headaches that cattle can bring.

I think Backhoeboogie has pointed this out in some past post how during this time of draught the hay only has made him more money, but he is preparing to go back the other way in future.

I would never consider doing my hay even if I had enough land, two time consuming for us that have city jobs also. I could make more money with more head of cattle or spending more time cleaning toilets than cutting hay would ever do.

 

[sackshowcattle]

Location has a big influence on whether or not to grow hay. Here in Colorado hay is bringing 100 to 120 a ton for big round or big square bales. Dairy quality is almost at 200 dollars. Small bales ar 5 to 6 dollars a bale. Now with those prices I cun put up the first cutting for my cattle through the winter, then sell the rest for around 10000 profit twine fuel and to maintain them. That same ground would run 50 head or 25000 dollars for the calves. around here. now to feed the current herd and the addition through the winter when the grass is dorment is about 20000 at those prices is a 5000 lose for the year due to the lose of income on the hay plus the output in having to buy. Yes some years when the engine blows up in the tractor or the baler has to be replaced the 5 years of profit offsets the cost of replacement.

 

[john250]

Local conditions are important here. A custom operator is always cheaper, but I don't know of one custom operator who will put me first, guaranteed. The timeliness factor is huge. Great hay becomes mediocre hay in about a week. It becomes poor hay another week after that. I likely understate this.
Good equipment is currently a good investment if you want to make hay cows can live on. Yes, it costs you money and it depreciates. But it also gets the work done, has tax advantages. And good machines are holding their value pretty well, at least when you look at auction prices.
Tractor--JD 4wd about 80-90 hp with loader=50000 You could likely reduce this with a higher hour rig.
9' disc mower=10000 Buy new. Used are notorious.
tedder (new) four basket=3400 Buy new, and don't skip this.
10 wheel rake=3800
baler=round? Small square? Big Square? Probably 20 K min. Less if you want small squares, but then you have to figure labor or a bale wagon. Good used is ok here, but lots of times new is a better deal.

Grain farmers and cotton farmers own $250000 machines which run maybe 3 wks/yr. You have to look at the work to be done and the machines needed to achieve that.

 

[backhoeboogie]

EVeryone is probably correct for their situation.

If it is a wet year, cows are going to go high and hay is going to go cheap. Etc. etc. You cannot predict a drought, but you should be prepared.

The intent of Caustic original post was on the money. You don't need a bunch of fancy hoopla. You need good land and a good plan. You absolutely don't want to go putting all your profit into interest payments to the bank, especailly for fancy new equipment that doesn't make a profit.

 

[MillIronQH]

I bale my own hay and figure it cost 20 dollars a roll.
Now after subtracting the upkeep on the 30 cows at 12,000 dollars I still need 400 rolls costing 12,000 dollars that leaves me 6000 dollars in the hole after the sale of my 30 calfs.
Baleing my own hay cost 8000 dollars .

Dern CB... Maybe you need to sell your haying equipment and hire it custom cut. $20.. is what the custom hay people are charging and they're figuring wages and a margin of profit.

While I'm at it I want to apoligize for forgetting that you run the perfect model outfit that every producer in the country should try to imitate. I forgot that you never have problems or get into a jackpot where you need to ask for outside help. You are perfection personified.

Get a grip.. Some of your concept and reccomendations make sense in spite of your more then slightly CAUSTIC method of presentaion. But... You have to accept the fact that your concepts and methods don't work everywhere or for everybody. You don't like or think you need horses. Okay, fine. Try to gather the King or the Connelly or the East or the C4 on foot with a feed sack. Horseback daywork is alive and well and prospering thanks to the beliefs you and a few others are promoting.

I have no doubt that you have the background and experiance to help people. You need to work on your attitude and presentation.Z

Remember... When you think you are a man of influence... try bossing someone else's dog around.Z

 

[Caustic Burno]

I bale my own hay and figure it cost 20 dollars a roll.
Now after subtracting the upkeep on the 30 cows at 12,000 dollars I still need 400 rolls costing 12,000 dollars that leaves me 6000 dollars in the hole after the sale of my 30 calfs.
Baleing my own hay cost 8000 dollars .

Dern CB... Maybe you need to sell your haying equipment and hire it custom cut. $20.. is what the custom hay people are charging and they're figuring wages and a margin of profit.

While I'm at it I want to apoligize for forgetting that you run the perfect model outfit that every producer in the country should try to imitate. I forgot that you never have problems or get into a jackpot where you need to ask for outside help. You are perfection personified.

Get a grip.. Some of your concept and reccomendations make sense in spite of your more then slightly CAUSTIC method of presentaion. But... You have to accept the fact that your concepts and methods don't work everywhere or for everybody. You don't like or think you need horses. Okay, fine. Try to gather the King or the Connelly or the East or the C4 on foot with a feed sack. Horseback daywork is alive and well and prospering thanks to the beliefs you and a few others are promoting.

I have no doubt that you have the background and experiance to help people. You need to work on your attitude and presentation.Z

Remember... When you think you are a man of influence... try bossing someone else's dog around.Z

I have a grip anyone that thinks they are producing hay for less than 20 bucks a roll doesn't know cow crap from wild honey.
With diesel prices at better than 2 bucks a gallon and fertilizer at 250 bucks or higher a ton and thats without upkeep cost. That tractor baler and cutter were not free buy a lot of hay for those dollars. I guess you can try to fool yourself but that cost has to be charged to hay or calf production.
That is just like the person that thinks they are upkeeping a`cow for less than a dollar a a day is BSing themselves. My attitude is great I just dont believe in sugar coating or telling people what they want to hear.
I am a cattleman that raises cattle to convert to cash,
I am not the least bit interested in playing cowboy.
Edited
I don't care if you want to work cows off a horse it's fun but not cost effective.
I don't care if you bale your hay it is not as cost effective.
People ask everday how to make money in this biz first thing is do away with unessacary cost and start truely tracking the cost of your operation.

 

[lilmac]

I worked ranches in AZ. and NM. in my younger days that were in sections, not acres. A good horse was a must.
I have a welding machine, and my brother-in-law has hay bailing equip. so I weld his corner posts, and build his racks, and he bails my hay. It works out just right for us. I have enough hay for me, and somtimes a lil left over.
Built my own trailer to. ;-)
Got 4 hats, but perfer caps.
Anyway I'll go go bed now, and let the grownups talk. :lol:
Mac

 

[aplusmnt]

I worked ranches in AZ. and NM. in my younger days that were in sections, not acres. A good horse was a must.

I think the original post was giving us an overall outline for the average cattle person or more specific the new cattle person.

There is always going to be variables on different areas or ranches. I am sure in some areas a Horse is very valuable tool, but maybe not for most ranches.

And some of the numbers crunched above on hay cost etc....surely will change based on Drought conditions. Might be times hay producing is profitable and other times it is not.

 

[MillIronQH]

My attitude is great I just dont believe in sugar coating or telling people what they want to hear.
I am a cattleman that raises cattle to convert to cash,
I am not the least bit interested in playing cowboy

Your attitude towards less experiened people sucks. It's not about sugar coating anything or just telling people what YOU think they want to hear. It's about telling people what they need to know in such a way they want to listen and learn. You start out by telling someone how stupid they are and you shut them out imediately. Then what have you acomplished? Who do you think is going to listen to someone whose only goal seems to be to berate and belittle their efforts or that their way is the only way regardless of conditions.

If the only reason you are in the cow business is for the money then maybe you should look at selling computers. The cow business goes way beyond being in it for the money. I don't own a single cow but I and every rancher I work for do it because we love being there. And before you even start to fire a shot at them think about the fact that most of them are 3rd-5th generation on the same ranches.

I readily aknowledge that my primary source of income comes from absentee owners whose 1200-2000 acre places are mostly used for hunting season get aways from work and wife But I wouldn't have those places without the recomendations from the from the oldtime local ranchers in the area. The people that own those places still expect me to be able to turn a profit for them.

Does this make me the absolute authority on all things cow. Not a chance in h____. All it does is let me speak of my own experience and nothing more. The same goes for you. If you've never had 1000 head of mama cows and their calves in a pen then you aren't qualified to tell anyone how to deal with it.

I've probably worked more cattle then you've ever seen and worked for people who have more cattle at anytime then you have had or will have in your lifetime. You're a small time cattleman who has had some sucess in the business. That does not make you THE absolute authority on all things cow. If you have learned and adjusted and profited I commend you and it's up to you if you pass that on.

BTW I talked to the man who owns my red studs daddy tonight. He runs about 2000 mama cows on a couple of places east of Billings. We talked about you and the invitation I have extended to you. He said that if I thought you could make a hand to bring up on up. He also said he wasn't paying or feeding anyone that couldn't. I have to admit I kind of waffled at that point because I'm not sure you could and I'd feel responsible for getting you back home. How do you feel about 14 hour days eating dust and Spam, canned tomatos and canned peaches for lunch? Persoally I'm thinking the reason you put down cowboys is because you're not good enough to be one.Z

 

[Grippie]

Agreed!

 

[Grippie]

I have a grip anyone that thinks they are producing hay for less than 20 bucks a roll doesn't know cow crap from wild honey.

I know that it doesnt cost me that much to produce a roll...I must be eating cow crap on my oatmeal...
I run over ~100 acres of good land that I dont pay payments, rent or taxes on. They just want it cut and they trust me to do a good job. When I roll hay- I borrow my uncles round baler. It's a "one hand washes the other" deal. I help him out when he needs it and I use his round baler when I need it. That 100 acres, it cost me fertilizer, fuel, twine and time. No where near $20/roll. Some of it gets sold as small squares for $2.50-$3 bale. Doesnt cost me that much to put it up. As said before- generalizations don't cut it. Everyones situation is different. Hmm. This crap is tasting better all the time.

 

[Grippie]

Are you saying that the pigs kept going back into a burning barn :?

Yep. Weird unh? Two of them. Stupid pigs.

 

[Angus Guy]

I don't want to start a fight but some of the cost for equipment that is being quoted here is way to high. As an example my baler cost $3000, rake $250, disc mower $7000, Tractor I already had. I put up about 300 bales a yr (5x6) and still work off farm as a custom applicator. My point being you don't need high dollar equipment just well maintained equipment to do the job right and at a lower cost.

 

[gendronf]

People ask everday how to make money in this biz first thing is do away with unessacary cost and start truely tracking the cost of your operation.

Amen

 

[Caustic Burno]

I have a grip anyone that thinks they are producing hay for less than 20 bucks a roll doesn't know cow crap from wild honey.

I know that it doesnt cost me that much to produce a roll...I must be eating cow crap on my oatmeal...
I run over ~100 acres of good land that I dont pay payments, rent or taxes on. They just want it cut and they trust me to do a good job. When I roll hay- I borrow my uncles round baler. It's a "one hand washes the other" deal. I help him out when he needs it and I use his round baler when I need it. That 100 acres, it cost me fertilizer, fuel, twine and time. No where near $20/roll. Some of it gets sold as small squares for $2.50-$3 bale. Doesnt cost me that much to put it up. As said before- generalizations don't cut it. Everyones situation is different. Hmm. This crap is tasting better all the time.

It still cost you are just borrowing off someone. Taxes are getting paid on that land you borrow your uncles free round baler didn't cost him a dime. You can hire a lot of cheap help for the cost of a round baler, what about the cutter it was free also? The tractor?
This is a good example of funny math in the cow business.