Standard vs Miniature Size Cattle

[Sequoiababy7]

We own 40 acres of pasture land plus a barn in the Pacific Northwest and are looking into starting up a small herd of cattle. We have had horses, goats, and chickens but never cattle. I have decided that we will start out with five galloways for meat and one jersey for milking to provide for my family and friends with the potential of it growing. My main dilemma is whether purchasing miniature sized cattle is the right option. The size of a full size cow does not intimidate me at all and I would actually feel more comfortable having them so they are able to defend themselves from predators if need be. But I know that minis are more efficient by requiring less space and feed. Is the difference between the costs minis and standards that significant? Is it worth spending twice as much money purchasing a mini than you would on a standard size cow? I'm sure it is mainly up to one's individual preference but I would appreciate all of your opinions. Thanks!

 

[WalnutCrest]

Get a standard Jersey.

 

[farmerjan]

A couple of pluses for a standard size jersey for milk. First off they aren't sooooo big like a holstein or other breeds of dairy animals. Price as you mentioned. Availability of semen to breed AI if you want to breed her jersey; and can the mini's be bred AI very easily as a technicians hand is only so small to fit, salvage value if she doesn't breed or gets mastitis and you can't get her straightened up or whatever, value of the bull calf as a jersey steer for beef for yourself. I don't know and have no experience with any of the mini breeds so cannot say anything bad about them . I have heard they are pricey.....You can easily use the standard size jersey, who will weigh about 1000 as a mature cow, as a nurse cow and put a couple of calves on her, or use as a dual purpose nurse cow, milk for the house cow. I doubt that a mini could take a full size calf nursing off her....
If you plan on the milk supplying more than one household then a standard size is a no-brainer. A decent jersey will make in the neighborhood of 2-4 gallons a milking: depending on how much grain you feed. So for conversations sake say at least a 5 gallon bucket a day. Feed an extra bottle calf or two, feed a couple of pigs, if you have a large family they will use alot of it, make ice cream or even some simple cheeses to supplement, yogurt......sell, or do cow shares, or whatever, a couple of gallons a week to help pay for feed etc....Milk here on "cow shares" works out to about $5.00 a HALF gallon...I was getting the equivalent of $8.00 a gallon and they were happy to get it.
Cons......you can't bring her home in the back seat of the car.... :???: :roll: ;-)

 

[Nesikep]

Depending on the size of the family, a good milking beef cow (that's docile) can provide you with milk as well.
Whatever you do, don't get a small cow because they're "easier to handle", get a cow that's easy to handle, size is pretty irrelevant...
I don't know how big your hands are, but I know I can't imagine milking a cow with my thumb and forefinger and having the patience to get a gallon

I don't know anything about the temperament of this cow, she was just some old school Simmental I saw at the sale barn.. What I do know is she could raise a nice calf and still flood you with milk!

 

[cbcr]

I don't know anything about the temperament of this cow, she was just some old school Simmental I saw at the sale barn.. What I do know is she could raise a nice calf and still flood you with milk!

From the looks of her she looks to be a Fleckvieh, which are dual purpose animals. The Fleckvieh are good healthy animals and as a dairy breed are the second largest population. For providing milk a dual purpose breed would be a good choice. The dual purpose breeds that would fit this situation are Fleckvieh, Normande and the Montbeliarde.

To learn a little more about the Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde breeds go to our website http://www.dairycattleregistry.com/wp/homepage/ we also have information on the Normande http://www.dairycattleregistry.com/wp/normande/. You can also read about some the other dairy breeds too.

As for beef, get full size cattle. Breeding them AI is easier and if you sell any calves at the local sale barns, then they will sell well.

 

[City Guy]

Minis do produce more pounds of product per acre but meat has to be direct marketed. Are you prepared to do that? Is there a market for it in you area?

Not all minis are created equal. Herefords have dwarf gene, while Low Lines do not. Dexters are a small, gently dual purpose breed but the phenotype jumps all over the place--short, tall, horned, polled, variety of colors. If you're ok with that they might be a good compromise.

 

[farmerjan]

Galloways are not a mini breed so if you like them, and are prepared to mostly do direct marketing, I see no reason to not go with them for your beef animals. I love the belted galloways, the ones I had were good dispositioned, and with the double hair coat, naturally have less fat on the outside of their carcass so less trim. They don't do well in real warm temps. Same as Scottish highlands.
I was under the impression from the original post that you were considering a standard size jersey as opposed to a mini jersey. Yes there are several dual-purpose breeds that will both milk and provide a decent beef carcass. Alot of dairies, especially those that do more grazing, have used montbeliarde and swedish or norweigan red crosses with some success. Problem is they will get very fat if kept in a confinement operation. That wouldn't be your problem. They usually have milk in the 3.5 to 5 % range. Most jerseys and good guernseys will run in the 4-5.5% range which is better for things like making butter. I personally eat almost strictly jersey beef as they marble well and do not get tough as young as some other dairy breeds, they are a little smaller sized carcass, they are not worth that much at the stockyards, and the flavor is a little bit sweeter than most beef breeds due to the higher fat and marbling. One thing, sometimes the ones that are dual purpose, you will find that the calves will not always look as beefy and if you sell them conventionally, may not bring the price. "Black" is king as far as color goes in this area and any calves that look like they may have any "dairy" in them also get discounted at the stockyards. The markets are tough now and have fallen off way more than anyone thought they would. The record highs were too high and we knew they couldn't last, but they went way lower, way quicker, than most ever imagined.

 

[cbcr]

With the Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde being a whitefaced animal, they do sell quite well at the sales. I was on the phone with one our members not too long ago, and a group of Montbeliarde calves were being sold at an auction in California and the price they brought was near the top of the market. With the Normande, in France they are a premium beef product. We have several members who have the Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde animals in confinement operations that produce quite well, equaling their Holstein herdmates. It is true that these animals carry more condition but that is a characteristic of the breeds, they are strength breeds and when crossed with the Holstein make an outstanding animal that can hold up for more lactations than a Holstein.

 

[dun]

One catch to the mini's is that the original price is way too high in most cases to make them a viable source for beef/milk. Most people seem to figure there is more value in the uniqueness, a pet type nitch then as producing animals

 

[Muddy]

Minis do produce more pounds of product per acre but meat has to be direct marketed. Are you prepared to do that? Is there a market for it in you area?

Not all minis are created equal. Herefords have dwarf gene, while Low Lines do not. Dexters are a small, gently dual purpose breed but the phenotype jumps all over the place--short, tall, horned, polled, variety of colors. If you're ok with that they might be a good compromise.

Wrong answer. Lowlines do indeed have dwarf gene.

 

[City Guy]

Muddy, we've been through this before. Only the bastardized Xbreds have dwarf gene.

 

[Sequoiababy7]

Thanks for all the feedback! I had seen a lot of articles on how amazing mini size breeds are but didn't really think I could trust the source. I'm pretty confident we're going to stick with standard size cattle now.

 

[Muddy]

Muddy, we've been through this before. Only the bastardized Xbreds have dwarf gene.

And is registered as a Lowline. Lowline association is open herdbook and there are more purebred Lowlines than fullblooded lowlines in most areas. You have great chances to get a purebred Lowline than a fullblooded lowline since they are more common and reasonably priced.

 

[City Guy]

That's sad. I hate "breed-up" allowances. They hurt not only the breed, but also the entire industry. Nothing wrong with cross breeding if done properly, just don't call them a "breed".

 

[Muddy]

That's sad. I hate "breed-up" allowances. They hurt not only the breed, but also the entire industry. Nothing wrong with cross breeding if done properly, just don't call them a "breed".

What is a breed? Nearly all breeds are breed up anyways. Sometimes crossbreeding and breeding up is actually helping the industry AND the breed.

 

[dun]

That's sad. I hate "breed-up" allowances. They hurt not only the breed, but also the entire industry. Nothing wrong with cross breeding if done properly, just don't call them a "breed".

The only beef breeds that don;t allow breeding up are black angus and Hereford. None of the continental breeds would be very visible in the states without it. By the time an animal is 87% of a specific breed they are about as close to pure as the 100% ones are in breeding true. Other than color, most purebred Simmenthals are as fixed in the gene pool as the full bloods.

 

[City Guy]

Muddy, you're correct that "breeds" are breed-ups--FROM CENTURIES OF CLOSE BREEDING. The genotype of a breed-up is too diverse to be repeatable without many generations of inbreeding. The sole purpose of a breed is to REPEATEDLY produce uniform animals suitable for a specific purpose, environment and diet. The only time a breed is improved by breeding up is when it needs improving in the first place, then it takes many generations to stabilize the genes. Better to just let that breed go extinct. The problem as I see it is that too many producers want to raise the breed they like in an environment or for a purpose for which it is ill suited. Packing companies arbitrarily demanding certain colors and a poorly informed public compound the problems.

 

[cbcr]

That's sad. I hate "breed-up" allowances. They hurt not only the breed, but also the entire industry. Nothing wrong with cross breeding if done properly, just don't call them a "breed".

The only beef breeds that don;t allow breeding up are black angus and Hereford. None of the continental breeds would be very visible in the states without it. By the time an animal is 87% of a specific breed they are about as close to pure as the 100% ones are in breeding true. Other than color, most purebred Simmenthals are as fixed in the gene pool as the full bloods.

Also, being able to breed up in many cases is the only way to get a breed established. It is easier to ship semen from many countries and sometimes because of disease possibilities being able to ship live animals is not an option. While here in the US, breeds have been bred up to what is considered purebred at 87%, some of the breeds in their Homeland have infused US breeds to try to make some improvements in certain traits.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Breed up programs that consider a 7/8ths or 15/16ths the equivalent of a full blood for additional breed up purposes are lying to themselves and to the buying public about the heterosis available to them.

To wit:

15/16ths bull (considered a 100% fullblood for breed up purposes) breeds a random commercial cow of unknown genetic makeup. Their heifer is 46.875% (not 50%).

This heifer is bred to another 15/16ths bull ... that heifer is 70.3125% (not 75%) ...

The next heifer is bred the same way and her heifer is 82.03125% (not 87.5%) ...

And this heifer is bred the same way again, and her bull calf would be considered a 15/16ths and eligible for using in a future breed up program, although he's only 87.890625%.

Consider the degradation in the % influence of the reference breed if this 87.89% bull is used? And what if the bulls bred like this were used. Etc.

The answer is that your "purebred" bulls are, on average, really only about 75% of the blood of the reference breed.

Not all continental breeds use the same rules for breeding up.

 

[Muddy]

That's sad. I hate "breed-up" allowances. They hurt not only the breed, but also the entire industry. Nothing wrong with cross breeding if done properly, just don't call them a "breed".

The only beef breeds that don;t allow breeding up are black angus and Hereford. None of the continental breeds would be very visible in the states without it. By the time an animal is 87% of a specific breed they are about as close to pure as the 100% ones are in breeding true. Other than color, most purebred Simmenthals are as fixed in the gene pool as the full bloods.

:nod: Who needs some giant cows or a cow killer bull that throws mammoth calves?