Speckle Park vs Piedmontese

[Nite Hawk]

Howdy,
I have worked around cattle for quite sometime, both beef and dairy.
I have wanted to get a few beef to raise for the freezer and a few extras to raise to sell.I have seen the different breeds and their attributes and faults, and not been happy enough with any one breed enough to want to invest in any particular breed.I have handled everything from Simmental, Herefords, Angus, Charolais, Limosin, etc, and all sorts of crosses in between, and there was always something that I admired about each breed, but also things that made one want to send them to the butcher on the early side!! Whether it was wildness, (lots of fence fixing because they always crashed it) lack of muscling, over fat, or whatever.
I may possibly have an opportunity to aquire a couple Speckle parks depending on what happens with lady's calf crop this spring, and if she has enough heifers.
I also have an opportunity to possibly aquire a piedmontese heifer along the way, but never having dealt with either of these breeds I would like input from those who have raised / handled them, and what they think of them, from health, temperment, cuttability, survivabilty, calving etc.
Any feedback would be appreciated!! thanks-
Nite Hawk

 

[Massey135]

There is no comparison. SPs are a maternal breed intended to be used in the makeup momma cows. Pieds are a terminal breed meant to inject growth and muscling into their calves. Imo, the only place for a Pied female is in a purebred herd where the goal is to raise bulls for the commercial cattlemen to use as terminal sires.

 

[slick4591]

I don't have any experience with Speckled Park and I've only had my Pieds a couple of years. My first calves will come in August as Pieds are later maturing. While Pieds are used primarily as terminal here in the states, the Italians use them as dairy. My understanding is they are very good mothers, and mine (heifers and a bull) are docile and respectful of me. They are lean meat producers and will add pounds to a commercial cross. I've been eating Pied crosses and due to their inactive myostatin gene they have a natural tenderness. Also, I have yet to eat any commercial beef that matched their flavor.

 

[Nite Hawk]

Thanks for your comments Slick4591
There are not many Piedmontese in this area, so it is hard to talk to different breeders about their cattle.
One local fellow who said he had seen Pieds back east, claimed they had trouble calving and most ended up c-sections. The lady who has a few Pied cattle says she has never had a problem at all, and her calves are born skinny, and start muscling shortly after birth. She also claimed the meat was fantastic flavored, even though it was lean and didn't have much marbling in it.
A problem with that is that the meat graders always look to the marbling to determine the grade--Prime--grade A etc.
Any thoughts?
Also, we can get pretty cold winters in this area ( hit about minus 50 F last winter) and was wondering how they might handle the cold climate with low fat covering.
Concerning Speckle parks, a lady who raises them also claimed their meat is also much better flavored than most other breeds of cattle.
I have seen several different types of S.P. cattle over the years,( although there are few in this area).
The tiny deer like cattle, and some more normal sized cattle that have incredible double muscling, depending on the bloodline and what the breeder was breeding for.
When talking about meat grade, does anyone know if S.P. Cattle might get docked because of the shorthorn tendency to throw yellow fat, or do the S.P. generally have normal colored fat?
How about S.P. temperment??
Any thoughts??
thanks--
Nite Hawk

 

[seth]

The color of the fat has more to do with feed than breed. Speckle Park, hands down. Better carcass quality, easier fleshing, easier calving, more maternal.

 

[slick4591]

Thanks for your comments Slick4591
There are not many Piedmontese in this area, so it is hard to talk to different breeders about their cattle.
One local fellow who said he had seen Pieds back east, claimed they had trouble calving and most ended up c-sections. The lady who has a few Pied cattle says she has never had a problem at all, and her calves are born skinny, and start muscling shortly after birth. She also claimed the meat was fantastic flavored, even though it was lean and didn't have much marbling in it.
A problem with that is that the meat graders always look to the marbling to determine the grade--Prime--grade A etc.
Any thoughts?
Also, we can get pretty cold winters in this area ( hit about minus 50 F last winter) and was wondering how they might handle the cold climate with low fat covering.

As with most cattle you have to know what you're breeding the heifers to. Low birth weight applies and a long body sure helps. It's easier for a heifer to birth a snake than a box. The calves start expressing their muscling after they are on the ground, so the idea that they are little hulks is not true. As far a cold climates are concerned my bull came from CKC1586 and she's around the Lansing, Michigan area. I hear it sometimes gets cold up there, so she could answer that much better than I.

The lack of knowledge of Pieds do hurt in the regular commercial market. They get graded lower, when in fact they may have prime tenderness. Like I've said there's no match as to the flavor against what I've eaten. Depending on where you live and how many cattle you have there are places that will pay a premium for Piedmontese cattle. If you have enough they'll send a truck. I'm not advertising for this company, but they are offering free shipping at the moment. Pied beef cooks faster because it's leaner. Use a lower heat and for goodness sake don't over cook the thing.

https://store.piedmontese.com/

 

[CKC1586]

I sent you PM the day you posted your comment. Here are some pictures of my cattle:
http://ranchers.net/photopost/member.ph ... &protype=1
Pieds do well in both hot and cold climates their hair is fawn to white but skin is black which makes them versitile climate wise. My brother neighbor and I have been into Pieds for ten years, One C section in all these years . Not sure it was necessary that time but that is long story all on its own.
I love the meat. Flavorful and tender and healthy for you.

 

[Taurus]

I know one of our neighbors had a herd of longhorns in the past, he used a Pied bull cover them. By the way, I live in Minnesota so I am assuming that Pied cattle would do "okay" in colder climates. These Pied x Longhorn calves were good-looking to me, but a little ugly. Pied x Highland is even uglier!

 

[Massey135]

Thanks for your comments Slick4591
There are not many Piedmontese in this area, so it is hard to talk to different breeders about their cattle.
One local fellow who said he had seen Pieds back east, claimed they had trouble calving and most ended up c-sections. The lady who has a few Pied cattle says she has never had a problem at all, and her calves are born skinny, and start muscling shortly after birth. She also claimed the meat was fantastic flavored, even though it was lean and didn't have much marbling in it.
A problem with that is that the meat graders always look to the marbling to determine the grade--Prime--grade A etc.
Any thoughts?
Also, we can get pretty cold winters in this area ( hit about minus 50 F last winter) and was wondering how they might handle the cold climate with low fat covering.

As with most cattle you have to know what you're breeding the heifers to. Low birth weight applies and a long body sure helps. It's easier for a heifer to birth a snake than a box. The calves start expressing their muscling after they are on the ground, so the idea that they are little hulks is not true. As far a cold climates are concerned my bull came from CKC1586 and she's around the Lansing, Michigan area. I hear it sometimes gets cold up there, so she could answer that much better than I.

The lack of knowledge of Pieds do hurt in the regular commercial market. They get graded lower, when in fact they may have prime tenderness. Like I've said there's no match as to the flavor against what I've eaten. Depending on where you live and how many cattle you have there are places that will pay a premium for Piedmontese cattle. If you have enough they'll send a truck. I'm not advertising for this company, but they are offering free shipping at the moment. Pied beef cooks faster because it's leaner. Use a lower heat and for goodness sake don't over cook the thing.

https://store.piedmontese.com/

chances of dystocia are increased with added body length. Look through any stud catalog, bulls with noted length with have worse calving ease numbers that those considered more moderate or shorter coupled.

 

[redcowsrule33]

I always thought the opposite. However, statistics have proven us both wrong. I can't get the link to work for me, but if you google "steerplanet selection for calf shape" you can find the article.

Quote from the article: "In conclusion, you are probably not wrong when you swear a certain calf was born with difficulty because he has wide hips or broad shoulders. Nevertheless, those big hips or shoulders probably just means that he was big. The sire's calving ease and birth weight EPDs provide a more accurate estimate of a calf's chance for an unassisted birth than any body shape measure. Reliable prediction depends upon consistent, repeatable trends. This does not mean that a long, skinny, 95-pound calf will never be born unassisted while a seemingly square-block-shaped 75-pound calf has to be pulled. What it does mean is that, on average, progress cannot be made in decreasing calving difficulty by selecting for body shape in addition to birth weight."

Can I find plenty of examples of high-accuracy bulls that have a low birthweight EPD and poor calving ease? Sure. But on a statistical basis they are the exception.

 

[slick4591]

I always thought the opposite. However, statistics have proven us both wrong. I can't get the link to work for me, but if you google "steerplanet selection for calf shape" you can find the article.

Quote from the article: "In conclusion, you are probably not wrong when you swear a certain calf was born with difficulty because he has wide hips or broad shoulders. Nevertheless, those big hips or shoulders probably just means that he was big. The sire's calving ease and birth weight EPDs provide a more accurate estimate of a calf's chance for an unassisted birth than any body shape measure. Reliable prediction depends upon consistent, repeatable trends. This does not mean that a long, skinny, 95-pound calf will never be born unassisted while a seemingly square-block-shaped 75-pound calf has to be pulled. What it does mean is that, on average, progress cannot be made in decreasing calving difficulty by selecting for body shape in addition to birth weight."

Can I find plenty of examples of high-accuracy bulls that have a low birthweight EPD and poor calving ease? Sure. But on a statistical basis they are the exception.

And that's why I said BW and shape should be considered. I would never assume that a long 100 lb calf would be a walk in the park for a heifer.

 

[Nite Hawk]

Thanks for all the replies, Have not had much of a chance to use the computer lately.
Yes I have heard it can get cold in michigan, so that is probably a pretty good test on the Pieds durability!
About the calving one old cattlewoman swore up and down that a bull with pidgeon toes on the front end, who threw that defect, would be a hard calving bull, as it threw the shoulders out, and the calf tended to get its shoulders stuck on the way out.
Interesting thought.
My concern is--are the Pied cows so muscled in the hind end that they have trouble passing that calf??
From what I have heard some breeds of cattle have a tendency to have alot of internal fat, ( not Pieds of course!) and that can cause problems come time for the calf to be born, so wondered if over muscling could cause that problem too???
any thoughts??
thanks--
Nite Hawk

 

[CKC1586]

Thanks for all the replies, Have not had much of a chance to use the computer lately.
Yes I have heard it can get cold in michigan, so that is probably a pretty good test on the Pieds durability!
About the calving one old cattlewoman swore up and down that a bull with pidgeon toes on the front end, who threw that defect, would be a hard calving bull, as it threw the shoulders out, and the calf tended to get its shoulders stuck on the way out.
Interesting thought.
My concern is--are the Pied cows so muscled in the hind end that they have trouble passing that calf??
From what I have heard some breeds of cattle have a tendency to have alot of internal fat, ( not Pieds of course!) and that can cause problems come time for the calf to be born, so wondered if over muscling could cause that problem too???
any thoughts??
thanks--
Nite Hawk

We get 40 below zero wind chills and stretches where it doesn't get above zero. Cows do fine. As stated before if attention is paid as to what bull you are using on first calf heifers not any different than any other breed, our Angus breeder neighbor (who did have a c section for his 120 calf...that NEVER happens with that breed tho right?!) he is a friend and we just couldn't believe he even told us about that! Anyway determine what you want on your farm and what product are you wanting to produce. Regardless of what you choose you will have victories and you will have defeats. There is no perfect breed or breeder.

 

[slick4591]

I'll add that the calves are not born with the expressive muscling. They start showing that weeks later.

 

[Nite Hawk]

120 pounds on an Angus!!! Wow!
Seen calves like that with Holsteins, but never that big in Angus!.
Although we had a heifer that was bred red angus with a stuck calf. We did get it out, but it was quite the job, it had a head on it like cement block.
Anyone have problems with the meat grade on Pieds being lower because of its leaness? or are the Pieds more of a specialty market?
Thanks-
Nite Hawk

 

[slick4591]

Pieds are a specialty at the moment and I believe they will stay at that level for a while.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Long calves come out way easier than short calves of the same weight.
For example european blonde daquitanes (Very long and slender) compared to european Charolais (Very blocky).

 

[ANAZAZI]

My concern is--are the Pied cows so muscled in the hind end that they have trouble passing that calf??
From what I have heard some breeds of cattle have a tendency to have alot of internal fat, ( not Pieds of course!) and that can cause problems come time for the calf to be born, so wondered if over muscling could cause that problem too???
any thoughts??
thanks--
Nite Hawk

Muscle in the cow can cause problems, but it is not a piedmontese problem, more a belgian blue or aubrac problem (if they are way overfed). Breeds with lean beef can carry a lot of internal fat like any other cattle, but not when fed ordinary hay or silage.

 

[Massey135]

Long calves come out way easier than short calves of the same weight.
For example european blonde daquitanes (Very long and slender) compared to european Charolais (Very blocky).

The kicker is "of the same weight" ... I've never seen a "real long" 70 lb calf nor have I ever seen a short coupled hundred pounder.

 

[Catherina_Cunnane.]

Hi, This is a very interest conversation!
I don't know much about the Piedmontese Breeed.
Here is Ireland, there is a Piedmontese Society, but there isn't many Piedmontese Cattle Round.
I'm An Aubrac Breeder.. I was just wondering does anyone know how the Piedmontese X Aubrac would Cross! The Aubrac are the most reliable calver! Who they suit the Piedmontese?
-Catherina-