So ashamed. I forgot all about Earth Day.

[Nesikep]

The way I see it is that the irresponsibility of some leads to the overregulation of everyone.. Logging, Mining, Farming, Fishing, you name it.. it's the corporate culture of maximizing profits above all else until someone comes along and lays down the law, usually in an overbearing fashion.. If logging companies didn't need to replant what they logged they certainly wouldn't, and unfortunately, if some people weren't told not to drain the engine oil next to a creek, they would.

 

[Jogeephus]

if some people weren't told not to drain the engine oil next to a creek, they would.

Don't necessarily agree with this because I've heard of people making liquor just because the government says they can't because it will blind you or something if its not taxed properly.

 

[Bright Raven]

Jo stated:

...we need to use common sense and employ benefit cost analysis to things rather than do the typical knee jerk reactions our politicians typically do. To spend $5 million on figuring out the most environmentally friendly way to melt bags of ice in Louisiana after Katrina is just plain stupid and whether you are right or left every taxpayer should be outraged at this nonsense.

Not being facetious, but what is common sense to one person is a stupid act of incompetence to another. I have been involved in cases where the regulated party thought building a sedimentation pond was not an act of "common sense". Not everyone thinks a power plant is more important than a minnow. That is a fact Jack.

The world is never exactly what anyone wants it to be. We all live with that. One party wants to go North. The other party wants to go South. We all end up going east and west.

Cattle Today has a culture. I don't think I am unique in observing that. It is largely a Christian Conservative Culture. Yes, I have said that at least 5 times before this. Imagine if you will that the whole world is NOT a Christian Conservative Culture. Imagine that there are people who "sincerely" value a minnow or a rare orchid more than a power plant. To the culture of CT, they are "stupid idiots without common sense". So be it. Call them what ever strikes your fancy. The question is this: does your label for them change anything?

Ron, that doesn't even begin to make any sense.

That supports my point.

 

[Jogeephus]

Jo stated:

...we need to use common sense and employ benefit cost analysis to things rather than do the typical knee jerk reactions our politicians typically do. To spend $5 million on figuring out the most environmentally friendly way to melt bags of ice in Louisiana after Katrina is just plain stupid and whether you are right or left every taxpayer should be outraged at this nonsense.

Not being facetious, but what is common sense to one person is a stupid act of incompetence to another. I have been involved in cases where the regulated party thought building a sedimentation pond was not an act of "common sense". Not everyone thinks a power plant is more important than a minnow. That is a fact Jack.

I think what is considered common sense to one is directly proportional to how much money it will cost the person. Herein lies the problem. To those who aren't paying the bill, moving a pipe at a cost of $1.5 million because of a gopher hole is nothing. And, I'd like to beg to ask why didn't the "experts" find this when they wrote up and approved the environmental impact plan for the job? What were they doing? It wasn't but a 1300 foot run yet the impact plan was several inches thick and took months to complete. Did these experts not bother to visit the site or was it to hot to leave their offices? The Peter Principle is at its purist in government and that is a fact and sadly the taxpayer has to flip the bill.

The world is never exactly what anyone wants it to be. We all live with that. One party wants to go North. The other party wants to go South. We all end up going east and west.

True. I wish yellowjackets and snakes were on the endangered species list.

Cattle Today has a culture. I don't think I am unique in observing that. It is largely a Christian Conservative Culture. Yes, I have said that at least 5 times before this. Imagine if you will that the whole world is NOT a Christian Conservative Culture.

Pretty observant on your part. I imagine had the muslims come across on the Mayflower you'd be saying america was an intolerant fanatical islamic culture only I suspect the board would be name Goats Today. I kindof like my piece of the world the way it is and anyone who wants it different should move to Mogadishu or some other heavenly spot like this.

Imagine that there are people who "sincerely" value a minnow or a rare orchid more than a power plant. To the culture of CT, they are "stupid idiots without common sense". So be it. Call them what ever strikes your fancy. The question is this: does your label for them change anything?

All I have to do to witness this is drive up I-75 and look at the silt fencing installed at the top of the hills above the construction zones to confirm there are some real smart people pushing some of these environmental regulations. You mention sincerity, but how sincere do you think they would be if this was coming out of their pocket? Hypocrisy enjoys life on both sides of the isle.

Ron, that doesn't even begin to make any sense.

That supports my point.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ron, that doesn't even begin to make any sense.

That supports my point.

We are passing each other as ships lost in the fog.

You are debating. That is contrary to what I tried to communicate. It is obvious that your sense of things is not changing. That is not a criticism. My objective was to act as a facilitator so that you might appreciate that what seems so "right" to you, may be just as "wrong" to someone else.

This may be a waste of your time but this movie clip from Out of Africa speaks to the issue.

We often make the leap of faith that everyone else should believe what we believe, embrace our values and lifestyle.

https://youtu.be/wYEn-ZKSg_I

 

[True Grit Farms]

Tolerance = the loss of faith and principles.

 

[Jogeephus]

What's right for them is fine by me as long as they pay for it and I don't. I've always felt stupidity and slothfulness should be painful but today many are not accountable for their actions and every child gets a trophy when in reality this is not the case.

Speaking of Africa, when I was a boy I remember seeing commercials on television asking for money to feed the hungry. Who was the compassionate one, the person who sent money to feed these people so they could have a passel of children whose faces you now see on television with their starving children or the one who didn't send any money and let nature take its course?

The point was, I think, is we need to do what is right for our children and grandchildren. Do we leave them broke by wasting money on an empty turtle hole or do we employ common sense and weigh the costs of our actions against the outcome. Though not often talked about this type logic through the use of the MaxMin program is what helped us combat the Nazis in WWII. It seems today all we do is club an issue with a duffle bag full of money and hope for the best and hope we don't offend someone.

 

[Bright Raven]

What's right for them is fine by me as long as they pay for it and I don't. I've always felt stupidity and slothfulness should be painful but today many are not accountable for their actions and every child gets a trophy when in reality this is not the case.

Speaking of Africa, when I was a boy I remember seeing commercials on television asking for money to feed the hungry. Who was the compassionate one, the person who sent money to feed these people so they could have a passel of children whose faces you now see on television with their starving children or the one who didn't send any money and let nature take its course?

The point was, I think, is we need to do what is right for our children and grandchildren. Do we leave them broke by wasting money on an empty turtle hole or do we employ common sense and weigh the costs of our actions against the outcome. Though not often talked about this type logic through the use of the MaxMin program is what helped us combat the Nazis in WWII. It seems today all we do is club an issue with a duffle bag full of money and hope for the best and hope we don't offend someone.

You are too preoccupied with fairness and economic position.

Release yourself. Find humor in all that troubles your mind and your burdens will be lifted.

Brother Bright Raven.
May the Bird Fly Forever.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Alternative power isn't cost effective and I sure don't want to pay what Canadians pay for fuel.

Alternative energy can produce clean, affordable electricity, but the startup costs are enormous (same with Nuclear, which is too bad b/c it's very clean, safe, and powerful). My wife works for a university that does a lot of work with wind, and tidal, turbine technology. One of the big problems is that no one wants it in their backyards, including the people who complain about nuclear and coal. Also, people get after it b/c a few birds are too stupid to not get caught in it. Also, we could retrain all the folks who have lost their jobs from coal being shutdown, and give them jobs manufacturing and repairing alternative fuel equipment.

 

[Bright Raven]

Alternative power isn't cost effective and I sure don't want to pay what Canadians pay for fuel.

Alternative energy can produce clean, affordable electricity, but the startup costs are enormous (same with Nuclear, which is too bad b/c it's very clean, safe, and powerful). My wife works for a university that does a lot of work with wind, and tidal, turbine technology. One of the big problems is that no one wants it in their backyards, including the people who complain about nuclear and coal. Also, people get after it b/c a few birds are too stupid to not get caught in it. Also, we could retrain all the folks who have lost their jobs from coal being shutdown, and give them jobs manufacturing and repairing alternative fuel equipment.

Don't spoil this thread with information. Jo and I have been working for two days on this. Please keep it as ambiguous as possible.

 

[TexasBred]

Alternative power isn't cost effective and I sure don't want to pay what Canadians pay for fuel.

Alternative energy can produce clean, affordable electricity, but the startup costs are enormous (same with Nuclear, which is too bad b/c it's very clean, safe, and powerful). My wife works for a university that does a lot of work with wind, and tidal, turbine technology. One of the big problems is that no one wants it in their backyards, including the people who complain about nuclear and coal. Also, people get after it b/c a few birds are too stupid to not get caught in it. Also, we could retrain all the folks who have lost their jobs from coal being shutdown, and give them jobs manufacturing and repairing alternative fuel equipment.

Don't know that much about it but seems to be a very small window between minimum and maximum winds for effective use of wind turbines and many sit idle for days because of not enough wind or excessive wind. Maybe technology needs to catch up to make it effective and economical.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Don't leave solar out TB, when the sun isn't shinning there's not power being made either. Solar and wind power need subsidies from the oil, gas and coal industry's. Subsidizing folks is un - American, if you can't make it on your own shame on you.

 

[1wlimo]

Don't leave solar out TB, when the sun isn't shinning there's not power being made either. Solar and wind power need subsidies from the oil, gas and coal industry's. Subsidizing folks is un - American, if you can't make it on your own shame on you.

subsidy like the banks, automotive, and farming you mean?

While solar and wind have issues with supplies so does coal. it cost a lot of money and takes a lot of time to run a coal or nuclear fired power station up or down. What is required is smart meters that use the power that is in excess to pump water etc, and not use it in times of high demand.

Solar and wind have a great place, and do not require a lot of subside, and any one who keeps knocking them seams to like looking after the big companies that want to control every thing we do.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Don't know that much about it but seems to be a very small window between minimum and maximum winds for effective use of wind turbines and many sit idle for days because of not enough wind or excessive wind. Maybe technology needs to catch up to make it effective and economical.

A lot of the costs associated with this, as far as I understand it, is that you need a pretty substantial battery system to harness the power. As far as economical, I'm not sure we're really going to have a choice. It's like vehicles, they used to be cheaper b/c there were a lot more mechanical parts but now that they contain a lot more computers the price has gone without us having the choice to accept or decline those upgrades.

What we really need are 2 things: 1) a decrease in the surplus population on the planet and 2) less people reliant on mechanized equipment (including computers and phones).

 

[1wlimo]

What's right for them is fine by me as long as they pay for it and I don't. I've always felt stupidity and slothfulness should be painful but today many are not accountable for their actions and every child gets a trophy when in reality this is not the case.

Speaking of Africa, when I was a boy I remember seeing commercials on television asking for money to feed the hungry. Who was the compassionate one, the person who sent money to feed these people so they could have a passel of children whose faces you now see on television with their starving children or the one who didn't send any money and let nature take its course?

The point was, I think, is we need to do what is right for our children and grandchildren. Do we leave them broke by wasting money on an empty turtle hole or do we employ common sense and weigh the costs of our actions against the outcome. Though not often talked about this type logic through the use of the MaxMin program is what helped us combat the Nazis in WWII. It seems today all we do is club an issue with a duffle bag full of money and hope for the best and hope we don't offend someone.

I struggle with this one. Give the person a bowl of food and he eats today, give him a hoe and he can eat tomorrow, but when our government was acting behind the curtain to create the war so he can not plant his crop, then maybe we should be feeding him.

 

[TexasBred]

Don't know that much about it but seems to be a very small window between minimum and maximum winds for effective use of wind turbines and many sit idle for days because of not enough wind or excessive wind. Maybe technology needs to catch up to make it effective and economical.

A lot of the costs associated with this, as far as I understand it, is that you need a pretty substantial battery system to harness the power. As far as economical, I'm not sure we're really going to have a choice. It's like vehicles, they used to be cheaper b/c there were a lot more mechanical parts but now that they contain a lot more computers the price has gone without us having the choice to accept or decline those upgrades.

What we really need are 2 things: 1) a decrease in the surplus population on the planet and 2) less people reliant on mechanized equipment (including computers and phones).

Not too concerned about the cost. Just the ineffectiveness of it. Wind blowing like he// but too much for the turbines. As I said a very small window for effectiveness. Need to find a way to enlarge that window and have them operate even with lower speed wind but more especially redesign them to handle much stronger winds to utilize the electricity. Use to have a huge power line crossing my place supposedly moving wind created electricity from west Texas to central Texas.

 

[Dave]

The way I see it is that the irresponsibility of some leads to the overregulation of everyone.. Logging, Mining, Farming, Fishing, you name it.. it's the corporate culture of maximizing profits above all else until someone comes along and lays down the law, usually in an overbearing fashion.. If logging companies didn't need to replant what they logged they certainly wouldn't, and unfortunately, if some people weren't told not to drain the engine oil next to a creek, they would.

This is not always correct. I know that here Weyerhauser has very big nurseries growing hundreds of thousands seedling every year for planting their logged over ground decades before there was a law requiring them to plant. It made good business sense.

 

[TexasBred]

The way I see it is that the irresponsibility of some leads to the overregulation of everyone.. Logging, Mining, Farming, Fishing, you name it.. it's the corporate culture of maximizing profits above all else until someone comes along and lays down the law, usually in an overbearing fashion.. If logging companies didn't need to replant what they logged they certainly wouldn't, and unfortunately, if some people weren't told not to drain the engine oil next to a creek, they would.

Of the 2.3 billion seedlings planted annually, nearly 55 percent were planted by the forest products industry.  Tree farmers and other non-industrial private landowners planted another 28 percent of the total.  The rest were planted by federal, state and local agencies. Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Oregon and Washington are the leading tree-planting states, in that order

 

[Nesikep]

The way I see it is that the irresponsibility of some leads to the overregulation of everyone.. Logging, Mining, Farming, Fishing, you name it.. it's the corporate culture of maximizing profits above all else until someone comes along and lays down the law, usually in an overbearing fashion.. If logging companies didn't need to replant what they logged they certainly wouldn't, and unfortunately, if some people weren't told not to drain the engine oil next to a creek, they would.

This is not always correct. I know that here Weyerhauser has very big nurseries growing hundreds of thousands seedling every year for planting their logged over ground decades before there was a law requiring them to plant. It made good business sense.

Some do, some don't.. nevertheless, the ones that don't spoil it for the ones who are responsible and clean up (or prevent) the messes in the first place

 

[Jogeephus]

In the early 90's Weyerhauser had the largest nursery operation in the country. Don't know if that is still the case.

I don't know of any laws that require replanting trees but all the companies here do it. Only law I know of is one where the landowner has to clearcut all their trees to give the government their half so they can fund the government and fund agencies to regulate and encourage people to plant trees. :???: