Skid Steers

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We averaged about year per set of tires on our machine. Just your pretty standard middle of the road R4 style tires. A lot of grapple work in rough conditions, real rough on tires.

Spent the money on a set of Camso SKS753s. Put them on in the fall of 2020 and they've still got some life left. Worth the money and then some just in terms of durability.
 
I get your point but truth is that even using the biggest cost difference a track machine only has to do $9 an hour more work to put you on the plus side. That is no great feat for even an average operator if you are moving material to amount to anything.

Huh. So for some easy math say you can move 100 yards of material an hour with a wheeled machine at $2 for tires, that's $.02 per yard of material moved. To arrive at that same $.02 per yard a tracked machine would have to move 500 yards of material in that same hour @$10 for tracks......

Maybe me and my customers need new calculators?
 
Huh. So for some easy math say you can move 100 yards of material an hour with a wheeled machine at $2 for tires, that's $.02 per yard of material moved. To arrive at that same $.02 per yard a tracked machine would have to move 500 yards of material in that same hour @$10 for tracks......

Maybe me and my customers need new calculators?
No if your cost is $2 an hour on wheel machine and $10 an hour on a track machine that is a difference of $8 an hour. So if my track machine does $9 an hour more work (say @ 1.5 yards of dirt at industry standard cost) then I am making more $ an hour. Very, very easy to do 10-20% more work an hour with a track machine.

I run one everyday to make my living. Had really nice wheel machine that I just sold and bought a second track machine because it sat more than it ran…… It will not do what a track one will, plain and simple. There is a reason 75% of the machines sold today are on tracks.
 
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A lot of talk on here about throwing tracks. A few things on that. First keep them tight, second watch how you turn. It will slide 180 degrees in one spot, doesn't mean you should or have to. Break your turns up into short sections and "unload the tracks" as you go. Also depending on terrain and how you plan to use it find a machine with multi-flange idlers front and rear. They can make a huge difference in slipping tracks, especially on slope work.
 
I have one of the biggest skid loaders made... a Mustang 2105, 110 hp. I bought it with wheels on it, shortly after that I bought a set of Loegering VTS tracks for it, after having rented a Takeuchi CTL (really tough well built reliable Japanese built machine, its why the rental places and construction sites like them... very rigid and rough riding on bumpy areas.... 0 suspension). The difference convinced me that I wanted a tracked machine for almost all of the work that I need to do (I don't need to be cleaning barns or operating much on concrete). I also bought a brand new set of tires for it, because everybody told me that I wouldn't like the tracks on snow or ice. That was almost 10 years ago... and I've never put the tires back on it. LOVE the tracks and wouldn't ever want to be without them. (And that includes factoring in the increased operating cost... I just couldn't DO what I want to do anywhere as well, or efficiently, or effectively, without them... alot of fence clearing, dirt moving and shaping, rock picking and moving, tree grubbing........). This loader weighs about 12,000# stock, the tracks add another 1300# per side to that, and lengthen the wheelbase significantly (stability), with one of the primary advantages of that being that the front idler is moved about 8" further forward (ahead of the "normal" axle of the wheel)... and THAT means you have more leverage on the load. Makes a HUGE difference.

Absolutely no comparison between them... and I'm talking on the same machine. Easily can double the capabilities of the very same machine. With the tracks on, the machine is just rock solid stable, and leveling out is SO much easier and better. Traction for cutting dirt is WAY more, I can be filling the bucket doing cutting/grade work and have dirt rolling over the back of the 1 yard bucket and rolling into the cab, literally (not that THAT'S a good idea :)... just illustrates the additional traction and POWER that they allow you to apply to the work... which of course translates into how much real work you can effectively accomplish per hour...). When grubbing trees, I've put the bucket up against a tree that's up to like 12" trunk diameter (up fairly high), start pushing and rocking to allow the roots to tear off, and then just push it over, root ball and all. AMAZING what those tracks will allow you to do that you couldn't begin to do with tires.

There IS one important place though that you will prefer the tires... and that's if you're doing alot of loading on concrete. Tires will be able to "skid" and spin relatively easily with little power requirement, especially on wet, manure covered concrete. THIS IS A MAJOR ADVANTAGE over the tracks IN THAT SITUATION, and it CAN speed up your operations significantly over having to "turn wide" (as has been suggested to reduce power requirement, wear and risk of "throwing a track" with the track machine). Turning with the tracks DOES require significantly more power (and of course, that also means more stress and wear)... the tighter you require the machine to turn, the harder it is on the tracks and the whole machine. You learn to deal with this by turning wide, or backing up and relieving the stress on the tracks, which also helps to avoid the "throwing tracks" that others mentioned. This will also relieve the stress on the cables in the tracks significantly, to help avoid breaking them. These are things you don't consider with a true "skid steer".... you just spin it on the tires.

Tracks absolutely WILL cost you more to operate, even with proper operators. I've unfortunately replaced the tracks TWICE on mine in about 1500 hours (replaced the originals I bought with the used track set within about 300 hours... and now I've had to replace them again because of the cables breaking within the tracks... warranty is only good for 1 year after purchase...) Currently they cost about $1800 and up per track, depending on who you get them from, and I'm sure there are differences in them... but price may not be the best metric for determining quality. I'm sure that some of the work that I've done picking rocks and clearing rocky fencelines (football to boulder sized rocks accumulated over the last century) has been much of the cable breaking problem (running over boulders you didn't know were there on one side of the track). This "could be" attributed to operator error, but if that's the work that you have to do, you're going to do the work, regardless of the conditions, and then "pay the price" that it cost, to get it accomplished... it's all part of the jobs you need to get done. I've also had to replace a few rollers (not cheap) on this used set of tracks that I bought... but that has been minimal really... mostly replaced a couple of end/corner idlers shortly after receiving the used set (bearings out... Loegering did really build their rollers right though... oil filled and sealed, very heavily built, made the same way as the idlers on a big Caterpillar dozer), and they've been fine ever since.

They also built the VTS system so that it DOESN'T need to be cleaned out... it pretty well sheds what it needs to on its own... something that the Cat ASV type of track systems don't do well at all. Neighbor has one of those, and he has to clean it out every time he uses it in winter, or it's not going to move next time.......... I've NEVER cleaned out any mud or snow or ice from mine, and I've NEVER had a track froze up on it (Minnesota). That doesn't mean though that the track system isn't more "stiff" than a wheeled unit would be though in the cold... it definitely IS... and it will take more power to operate in the cold than tires will. They will take more fuel per hour too because of this... but even with all of those "negatives", they more than make up for it in productivity. In the snow, you can go right over the snow banks like a snowmobile... I've never had mine stuck, period. I would never want to be without the tracks on ANY skid loader, but I WOULD prefer to be able to use a wheeled unit for loading manure on pavement. Tracks MAY tear up a field more on sod, like for loading hay bales, but that depends more on HOW YOU TURN... if you want to spin like you mostly do with a skid steer... but if you learn to turn like you should with a track machine, they'll tear it up less actually.
 
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A lot more parts to maintain on a set of tracks. And the machine we ran had a terrible time with popping the tracks off. NH C190 You learn to never turn on rough ground. I'm guessing some of the newer machines are designed better. If I got another one I'd go newer or get one with tires. Although it was pretty impressive where you could go with tracks. Swampy ground, lots of snow, cleaning up junk piles where there could be nails and such
I was looking for a C190 when I bought the Cat, just because we like the old LX885 so much. Other than the track issue, what did you think of the C190?
 
It's a decent unit. It was the first and only skid steer we had so I don't have anything to compare it to. But I must say it's treated us well. Lots of power. Can lift 2 big hay round bales. Also has good reach. Pushed lots of dirt with it as well. One issue we ran into with it was we had trouble with the hydraulic hoses in cold weather. Especially where they have to flex to follow the loader pivot points.
 
The Loegering VTS system also has a torsion mount system where it bolts onto the front "axle". This is actually a pretty good, durable, simple suspension system, and improves the ride substantially (like when you go over a solid bump in the road... frozen ground or maybe a rock that hits each one of your undercarriage idlers directly). I've never had the opportunity to drive a newer Bobcat with the suspended idlers in the track, but that looks to me like alot more opportunity for things to eventually break and need replacing. Most CTL's are pretty rigid, with little to no suspension built into them at all. Tires at least have some give to them when you hit something hard. Steel undercarriage bogies are HARD... with NO give whatsoever. Having some sort of suspension built into the track system is a big advantage for ride... but typically it will create more areas for maintenance too. I haven't seen that with the Loegering VTS track set.

Loegering got bought out by Terex, and I don't know if they're still selling the VTS system as new... and even if they were, it wouldn't be cheap (in the range of $20,000+). You can find them used though for pretty much any machine out there. I'd only worry about the idlers and drive sprocket for condition, the track will need replaced at some point anyway... like tires. Tracks aren't cheap, but they're a normal wear/maintenance item. The track set for my machine is the biggest, longest track made for "skid loaders"... a 63 link track x 18" wide. I think that its only used on the Mustang/Gehl largest machines (2105/2109 and 7800/7810). Point is, MY track set is much more "rare" and harder to find. For the majority of skid steers that are somewhat smaller and with a shorter wheelbase, the particular set you'd need is much more common to come across, and it also would be much more "re-saleable", because it will fit on alot more machines than my set would. All of the track sets have a high degree of adjustability (for length), and will fit on alot of different machines.
 
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Basing the benefits of a track machine over a tire machine based solely on undercarriage cost is like comparing a 2wd F150 to a 4wd DRW F350 based solely on the cost of a set of tires. They are both trucks but no where near the same vehicle in capabilities. You have to look at cost per job done/capable of. Beyond how the loader functions they are no where near the same machine in what they will do. Particularly if you don't put OTT on it which pretty much negates any cost difference.
 
Good post I'm considering trying to do something different and a skid steer would play into that.
 
Good post I'm considering trying to do something different and a skid steer would play into that.
I've ran Case skid steers for about 30 years before I got a CAT CTL. I'll never go back. If you keep the tracks adjusted there is nothing it won't do better than a wheeled skid loader.

One thing I have learned though is check out the DEF requirement before you buy. I bought a CAT 299d3 even when the dealer tried to talk me into a 289d. Oh no, I had to have the big bad boy not picking up the fact that the 289 doesn't require DEF and it's the same machine as the 299 but with about 10 HP less. I'm actually thinking about selling the 299 and getting the 289 as I've had issues with CAT's DEF system. I Would assume all of the 90-100 HP machines the other manufactures also require DEF.

CTL's cost a little more but they are certainly worth it in my opinion.
FWIW
 
Thanks for everyone's input. I think the majority opinion is tracked machines are more capable but pricier to buy and maintain. Wheeled machines while less capable are still a very handy machine, cheaper to buy and maintain.
So, if I were to go either way I would likely be satisfied, maybe more satisfied with tracks lol
 
Silver -- what do your neighbors run? Or locals? My skid runs on all ground types (concrete, asphalt, dirt, gravel, fields, corn stalks, pasture, hills, ice, snow, blizzards). I'd love tracks but several ppl advised me that due to the variety of work and ground type that tires would be the better choice. With that said -- I grew up without a skid and now that I've had one I can't imagine not having one. You'll love one (get a heated cab and a snowblower, haha).
 
I've had wheeled and track machines. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Overall for ranch type work I'd go with a track machine. The wheeled machine I bought a set of over the tire tracks for it and they were great but a pain to install. The main requirement for me is a good enclosed cab. The amount of dust you eat on a skid is unreal, not to mention snakes and bees if doing clearing or tree work.
 
I've had wheeled and track machines. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Overall for ranch type work I'd go with a track machine. The wheeled machine I bought a set of over the tire tracks for it and they were great but a pain to install. The main requirement for me is a good enclosed cab. The amount of dust you eat on a skid is unreal, not to mention snakes and bees if doing clearing or tree work.
I will say this, I have both open and closed cabs and as much as I like A/C and heat and no dust, the open cab is more universal. I use my open cab as a rough terrain forklift. If you put forks on an enclosed cab and you need to lift the load some and want to get out to do something you can't open the door. If you don't use forks the encloses cab is pure luxury. Either way you go, get the quick attach. That's a great luxury In its self
 
Both my machines have full C/H/A and you can remove the door in 30 seconds if you want to do things that the door won't allow.

But like today when it was -9 and windchill of -29 and snowing sideways, I was in a t-shirt for 6 hours plowing snow listening to the radio. No way a guy would last long without a cab.
 
Both my machines have full C/H/A and you can remove the door in 30 seconds if you want to do things that the door won't allow.

But like today when it was -9 and windchill of -29 and snowing sideways, I was in a t-shirt for 6 hours plowing snow listening to the radio. No way a guy would last long without a cab.
I hear you. Always good to note where people are. Little bit of difference in weather between Michigan and Texas. And good point about door removal. I grabbed the release by accident getting into it and your right, door came off in mere seconds. Took me about 30 minutes to get it back on but that's just just me.
 
Silver -- what do your neighbors run? Or locals? My skid runs on all ground types (concrete, asphalt, dirt, gravel, fields, corn stalks, pasture, hills, ice, snow, blizzards). I'd love tracks but several ppl advised me that due to the variety of work and ground type that tires would be the better choice. With that said -- I grew up without a skid and now that I've had one I can't imagine not having one. You'll love one (get a heated cab and a snowblower, haha).
I've got one neighbour with tracks and another with wheels. They each claim what they have is the best.
 
I've got one neighbour with tracks and another with wheels. They each claim what they have is the best.

Will they each let you try them? My guess is the neighbor with the wheel machine just thinks his is the best because he never ran a good track machine. From what I have gathered you have a good bit of experience with tracked equipment. I really think you would find a wheel machine lacking. I also think if you are the primary operator and have experience you will find the operation cost isn't as big a spread as advertised. I am the only one that runs my equipment and tracks last a long, long time if you take care of them.

One other thing I thought about which you probably know and really only applies to CAT/ASV/Terex machines. They make a CTL and a MTL. Two completely different undercarriages. You want a CTL which in a CAT is anything that ends in a 9. You don't want a CAT that ends in 7 or an ASV/ Terex machine.
 

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