Sermon for Today

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Crowderfarms":1g1sr0is said:
lakading":1g1sr0is said:
Unions are a necessity!

Please elaborate.
Unions are great as long as some flunky doesn't get protection from them to keep his job, when he should be terminated.That's where I have a problem with Unions, shielding bad employees.

Crowder this is one of the problems with the Union but there only strength is in numbers and solidarity. Every member pays the same dues so deserves the same defense good, bad or indifferent. Find a person from the greatest generation an old coal miner, refinery worker,teamster or auto worker better hurry as we are losing them at 1500 a day an get them to educate you on the working conditons and benefits of there generation .
The company polices were kill a man hire another one kill a horse buy another one only through Unions did this change to our benefit. The standard of living we have today is because what that generation stood and fought for I can not say Thank you enough to these Americans. Before you buy think about the metal drives of the depression as school children were gathering scrap metal the Japanese were the buyers to build bombs and bullets to kill American boys.
I have no problem paying an extra 900 bucks a car to provide an American family health and retirement benefits. Lot cheaper than all the American lives and billions to prop up the Jap's or Germans after a war they started.
AZ mentioned the generous pension plan in most retirement plans the union worker generous plan is about 40% of his regular salary with no cost of living raises to live on for the rest of there lives. Thats a long time if you live to the life expectency of 85 and retire at 62.

This is the last comment I will make on the thread I just have a hard time buying a John Deere that was built with slave Chinese labor, or to support a Japanese worker verus an American most other countries practice protectism against our products I think I will continue to practice patriotism and buy the Ford and American product's versus foreign.
 
Crowder this is one of the problems with the Union but there only strength is in numbers and solidarity. Every member pays the same dues so deserves the same defense good, bad or indifferent. Find a person from the greatest generation an old coal miner, refinery worker,teamster or auto worker better hurry as we are losing them at 1500 a day an get them to educate you on the working conditons and benefits of there generation .

Caustic, I agree this is a great generation that your speaking about. However, if you look at your sentence about the working conditions of their generation, it seems they paid the price then. Those same conditions do not apply today because of what they accomplished. I sell my companies products to many manufacturing plants in Missouri, Illinois, and part of Arkansas. In my dealings with both union and non union plants I have found that plants that do not have to deal with unions often times are more profitable and have less labor unrest than union plants. There was a time when unions were necessary, those days are not today. If I work for a company that does not pay me what I think I'm worth I go to management and negotiate a raise. If that doesn't work I find a company that will pay what I'm worth. I have done that three times in the last ten years and have increased my salary 12 times from my original earnings 10 years ago. The problem with unions in manufacturing are things like a time when I needed to demonstrate a welder in a union plant. When I arrived we put the welder in place but could not hook it up to test it until a union electrician arrived. Even though the maintenance man who was helping me was a certified electrician it wasn't his appointed job so he wasn't allowed to touch the machine. It was a 15 minute job that took three hours. Companies that have unions have to have another complete staff of lawyers just to deal with them driving up wages. If you look at companies in America that are struggling you will find automotive and airlines at the top of the list, both union.
 
I strongly agree with buying American but you would be hard pressed today to find any product built entirely in the USA.Parts or sub components of almost everything touted as made in the USA are in there somewhere.You talk of Ford and General motors? They are some of the biggest customers of foreign made sub assemblies.As far as unions go there was a dark time in America when the unions improved the lifestyle of the American worker and provided them with some job security. Those days are long past and the unions today are one of the reasons our products are so expensive.The American automobile is one good example.
 
Mahoney Pursley Ranch":30to90hm said:
I strongly agree with buying American but you would be hard pressed today to find any product built entirely in the USA.Parts or sub components of almost everything touted as made in the USA are in there somewhere.You talk of Ford and General motors? They are some of the biggest customers of foreign made sub assemblies.As far as unions go there was a dark time in America when the unions improved the lifestyle of the American worker and provided them with some job security. Those days are long past and the unions today are one of the reasons our products are so expensive.The American automobile is one good example.


Mahoney American corp. would head down the road to the dark side tomorrow if it wasn't for trade union. Funny how this thread dogs the American Union worker but support the Jap and German Union worker. Placement and advancement of Japanese workers is heavily based on educational background. Students who do not gain admission to the most highly rated colleges only rarely have the chance to work for a large company. Instead, they have to seek positions in small and medium-sized firms that can not offer comparable benefits and prestige. The quality of one's education and, more important, the college attended, play decisive roles in a person's career (see Higher education in Japan).

Few Japanese attend graduate school, and graduate training in business per se is rare. There are only a few business school programs in Japan. Companies provide their own training and show a strong preference for young men who can be trained in the company way. Interest in a person whose attitudes and work habits are shaped outside the company is low. When young men are preparing to graduate from college, they begin the search for a suitable employer. This process has been very difficult: there are only a few positions in the best government ministries, and quite often entry into a good firm is determined by competitive examination. The situation is becoming less competitive, with a gradual decrease in the number of candidates. New workers enter their companies as a group on April 1 each year.

One of the prominent features of Japanese management is the practice of permanent employment (shūshin koyō 終身雇用). Permanent employment covers the minority of the work force that work for the major companies. Management trainees, traditionally nearly all of whom were men, are recruited directly from colleges when they graduate in the late winter and, if they survive a six-month probationary period with the company, are expected to stay with the companies for their entire working careers. Employees are not dismissed thereafter on any grounds, except for serious breaches of ethics.

Permanent employees are hired as generalists, not as specialists for specific positions. A new worker is not hired because of any special skill or experience; rather, the individual's intelligence, educational background, and personal attitudes and attributes are closely examined. On entering a Japanese corporation, the new employee will train from six to twelve months in each of the firm's major offices or divisions. Thus, within a few years a young employee will know every facet of company operations, knowledge which allows companies to be more productive.

Another unique aspect of Japanese management is the system of promotion and reward. An important criterion is seniority. Seniority is determined by the year an employee's class enters the company. Career progression is highly predictable, regulated, and automatic. Compensation for young workers is quite low, but they accept low pay with the understanding that their pay will increase in regular increments and be quite high by retirement. Compensation consists of a wide range of tangible and intangible benefits, including housing assistance, inexpensive vacations, good recreational facilities, and, most important, the availability of low-cost loans for such expenses as housing and a new automobile. Regular pay is often augmented by generous semiannual bonuses. Members of the same graduating class usually start with similar salaries, and salary increases and promotions each year are generally uniform. The purpose is to maintain harmony and avoid stress and jealousy within the group.

Individual evaluation, however, does occur. Early in workers' careers, by age thirty, distinctions are made in pay and job assignments. During the latter part of workers' careers, another weeding takes place, as only the best workers are selected for accelerated advancement into upper management. Those employees who fail to advance are forced to retire from the company in their mid- to late fifties. Retirement does not necessarily mean a life of leisure. Poor pension benefits and modest social security means that many people have to continue working after retiring from a career. Many management retirees work for the smaller subsidiaries of the large companies, with another company, or with the large company itself at substantially lower salaries. (see Elderly people in Japan)

A few major corporations in the late 1980s were experimenting with variations of permanent employment and automatic promotion. Some rewarded harder work and higher production with higher raises and more rapid promotions, but most retained the more traditional forms of hiring and advancement. A few companies that experienced serious reverses laid off workers, but such instances were rare. This changed dramaticly with the collapse of the Japanese asset price bubble, when several large Japanese companies went bankrupt and others merely survived struggling. Emergency measures, often only introduced after managers from western countries took over, included larger reductions in the work force of several companies. Since then, the Japanese unemployment rate has been on the rise, even though official figures are still low by international standards.


Company unions
Another aspect of Japanese management is the company union, which most regular company employees are obliged to join .The linking of the company with the worker puts severe limits on independent union action, and the worker does not wish to harm the economic wellbeing of the company. Strikes are rare and usually brief.

Japanese managerial style and decision making in large companies emphasizes the flow of information and initiative from the bottom up, making top management a facilitator rather than the source of authority, while middle management is both the impetus for and the shaper of policy. Consensus is stressed as a way of arriving at decisions, and close attention is paid to workers' well-being. Rather than serve as an important decision maker, the ranking officer of a company has the responsibility of maintaining harmony so that employees can work together. A Japanese chief executive officer is a consensus builder.
 
lakading":16fnc3yk said:
Unions are a necessity!

Please elaborate.

It keeps balance....I don't believe everyone should be union, just like I don't believe everyone should be non-union. You need both to keep rights, wages, benefits, etc in balance....balance between those that own/run the companies and those performing the work for those same people..... More often than not, companies will only pay/provide as much as they need to....if they could get away with hiring you for less, than (in theory) that would put more in their pockets.
 
I think some of you are forgetting the reason some of these corporations are having money problems is because the CEO's need to take care of their own families. They have vacation homes in other countries and kids in private schools. They need that extra dollar we give them on our trucks, cars and tractors. We must feel a little sympathy for them. :cry: :lol:

Most of America wants it all too. I think we should all take a long hard look at what we are coming to. We all say buy American but what is American any more. If you eat or shop any where, most of the employees of these places only make minimum wage as I do, but I love my job. I would love to have more money but money verses time with kids and husband and our cows, I'd rather work for less. That is what we have all come to, money verses time the more you make the more you spend, then the more you work to spend more and less and less time is at home. Americans need to keep up appearances.

Our E1 to E-4 military families live on food stamps and they are trying to keep this way of life. I think if the CEO's gave up half of their salaries and sold a house or two the industry might change. But that goes for all managment.

In our hometown we have factories shutting down because of cutbacks but the CEO's aren't hurt at all. Step back and look at the whole picture.
 
I think unions in a manufacturing job are a necessity.

Corporate America now wants workers to work 10-12 hours a day six days a week. They don't care about your well being or health, just as long as you can work like a machine. If your body fails, then they will just replace you with another worker.

Case in point, I worked at the processing center for the postal service as a PTF (part time flex). We were working six days a week, 56 hours a week, but I was considered part time. (4 ten hours and 2 8's is NOT part time). A part timer does not get 2 days off nor can you turn down the overtime. But it was a good paying job and I couldn't let it go until my health totally failed me. Management refused to turn these jobs into full time regular positions. The unon had to get clock rings and force management into making full time positions. Management was angry about it so they made the full time positions with split days off and days off during the week. What idiots as more mail is processed from monday thru friday than on weekends.
 
I skimmed this thread and didn't read everyone's post but here are my thoughts on this.

In 1982 I was making about $15/hour (maybe) with college. At the same time the average bumper bolter was making $32/hour without college.

In 1985 I was making maybe $18-$20/hour and the average baggage handler was making $33/hour.

Both had better benefits due to the union agreements. A couple years ago I was talking to a guy from Detroit who installed batteries in cars on the line and he was complaining that he only made $52/hour.

Sorry, I have a hard time feeling sorry for these folks. I was a member of the IBEW at one time in my career. I left to look for a non-union job because I was being passed over for promotion for guy's who not only did not know their job they didn't do their job. They were protected by the union. They got promoted and us younger smarter upstarts did their work for them and we were first on the layoff lists.

Naw they made their choice. They will have to live with it. All I require is good quality not just a high price.
 
flaboy+":3bn0jd09 said:
I skimmed this thread and didn't read everyone's post but here are my thoughts on this.

In 1982 I was making about $15/hour (maybe) with college. At the same time the average bumper bolter was making $32/hour without college.

In 1985 I was making maybe $18-$20/hour and the average baggage handler was making $33/hour.

Both had better benefits due to the union agreements. A couple years ago I was talking to a guy from Detroit who installed batteries in cars on the line and he was complaining that he only made $52/hour.

Sorry, I have a hard time feeling sorry for these folks. I was a member of the IBEW at one time in my career. I left to look for a non-union job because I was being passed over for promotion for guy's who not only did not know their job they didn't do their job. They were protected by the union. They got promoted and us younger smarter upstarts did their work for them and we were first on the layoff lists.

Naw the made their choice. They will have to live with it. All I require is good quality not just a high price.

I agree, a lot of these union jobs have been their own demise, even with that said, they are necessary.
 
The president of Washington State University made the comment one time that the state didn't need ag because it brought in a minute amount of revenue each year. And this is even a land grant college where the Crops and Soils Dept is bigger than most of the colleges on campus. He doesn't realize that almost two thirds of the state is ag producing. He said we could just buy our food from somewhere else.

bobg
 
flaboy+":3v7s45ai said:
I skimmed this thread and didn't read everyone's post but here are my thoughts on this.

In 1982 I was making about $15/hour (maybe) with college. At the same time the average bumper bolter was making $32/hour without college.

In 1985 I was making maybe $18-$20/hour and the average baggage handler was making $33/hour.

Both had better benefits due to the union agreements. A couple years ago I was talking to a guy from Detroit who installed batteries in cars on the line and he was complaining that he only made $52/hour.

Sorry, I have a hard time feeling sorry for these folks. I was a member of the IBEW at one time in my career. I left to look for a non-union job because I was being passed over for promotion for guy's who not only did not know their job they didn't do their job. They were protected by the union. They got promoted and us younger smarter upstarts did their work for them and we were first on the layoff lists.

Naw they made their choice. They will have to live with it. All I require is good quality not just a high price.

Sounds like you are a little jealous because you have a degree doesn't make you smarter or a better worker it says you had different opportunities. I found the guys that usually made statements like yours on the job site are the one's you would like to buy them for what they are worth and sell them for what they think they are worth.
 
flaboy+,
What you wrote reminds me of what's going on here in Tennessee in the Saturn plant. The union kept these folks working even when there wasn't any product to put out. You could go on a tour through the Saturn plant and they're having a party in there-why not? They're still getting paid. They would bring in their chicken cookers and set up and cook a meal. Hey, they were getting paid to do it-the union said do. However, that's all changing there now. It's still up in the air whether the plant will close or not. The union is gone from there now and nobody wants to buy a Saturn. I hate to see folks lose their jobs but how can they continue to go on like this? High pay and nothing to produce?
 
Good post Caustic!

Since I've been an employee of one of those 2 large corporations for more than 26 years, I've seen several issues up close and personal that have led to the decline of automobile manufacturing in the USA.

1st, there seems to be less and less a sense of loyalty to people, community, and country. The "me first" or "looking out for number one" attitude that much of society exhibits is appalling.

2nd, the cheapened designs and poorly engineered products of the past that carried full market price, has driven many customers away from American automobiles. Once trust is lost, it's a long road back, if there's a road at all. Years ago, I've seen workers struggling to make things fit, or shake their heads at the cheapness of the parts they were given to assemble. We knew full well that a customer wouldn't be satisfied with the service they'd get from some of the vehicles produced in the past.

3rd, I know the companies in trouble don't buy American either! When US Steel and Bethlehem Steel were going out of business, the corporation I worked for purchased nearly all of its steel from Belgum (remember when all the cars just rusted apart?). Many of the components for American automobiles are imported from other countries today. Greed for easy profits and willingness to do anything for a buck is exhibited by the corporations, just as it is by many American citizens.

4th, Americans think it's ok to buy foreign if it's assembled in the US. NOT TRUE! The real strength manufacturing give this nation comes from the profits staying in this country and the techonological recearch & development needs to belong to THIS country as well. Foreign automobiles assembled in the US are designed & engineered in another country. The profits from those cars go to another country as well.

I will say that the quality of most American automobiles made today are on par with their foreign competitors. It's curiousity to me that fact has little to do with it. Perception is everything. 15 or so years ago, Chrysler imported a vehicle manufactured by Mitsubishi (Laser I think). The same car built by the same company, with the same parts, was perceived to be of much higher quality when the Mitsubishi sticker was on it, but quality magically dropped when the Plymouth sticker was on the same car! People are sheep, they believe anything they read!
 
Rustler9":1r9peyrz said:
flaboy+,
What you wrote reminds me of what's going on here in Tennessee in the Saturn plant. The union kept these folks working even when there wasn't any product to put out. You could go on a tour through the Saturn plant and they're having a party in there-why not? They're still getting paid. They would bring in their chicken cookers and set up and cook a meal. Hey, they were getting paid to do it-the union said do. However, that's all changing there now. It's still up in the air whether the plant will close or not. The union is gone from there now and nobody wants to buy a Saturn. I hate to see folks lose their jobs but how can they continue to go on like this? High pay and nothing to produce?

You're VERY mis-informed Rustler9!
 
Rustler9":sud09qkc said:
What's happening with the plant? What are their plans now?

I guess I should have been more clear with my comment. I was referring to some of the things being laid at the feet of the union.

As far as the plans for the furture, I'm not a liberty to comment right now. I will say that I think that anyhing of significance will probably be made public within the next 2 months. That communication timing is just a guess on my part.

Since I doubt that it's of interest to folks reading a cattle forum, if you'd like to PM me, I'd be happy to share some details about that facility, how it was founded, it's contract, and the union there. It appears there are some misconceptions about the place.
 
I work for a company that provides a major part to alot of the car makers. Honda, Toyota Ford etc.... As far as quality Toyota and Honda, are the pickiest and they do not care to send it back to you. Corvette and Mercedes are probally next highest on quality. These are just my opinions. I am not union, and I don't care to be. I really can't think of anything that a hard working person that comes to work and gives an effort, and actually cares about the product he or she produces, this person does not need a union. As far as foriegn companies producing cars here, there are alot paychecks that go out around here. I'm pretty thankful that they are here.
 
tuck":3o5u015e said:
As far as foriegn companies producing cars here, there are alot paychecks that go out around here. I'm pretty thankful that they are here.

You sound just like the car companies. You're willing to sell your nations' future for short term personal profits. That's just what the big car companies did and a major part of why they're in the mess they're in today. They traded short term profits for long term losses!
 

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