Rookie needing advice on feed strategy

[MadRanchTX]

I don't want to turn this into a 'you can't feed through the drought' discussion. I'm aware it is just not cost effective to do so.
I was prepared to sell out and carried half my cows to the sale barn where I got within 2 cents per pound of the very best looking cow I saw 5 cents a pound more then most equivalent looking cows and 15- 20 cents a pound more then the typical looking sale barn cattle. Like I said I'm a rookie but after watching nearly 3000 head of cattle go through the sale and mine being at the very top I've decided to keep my remaining cows. On the other hand being a rookie that could all be BS and I just don't know any better. What I do know it is not just culls going through sales barns right now. So every one has to make a decision and right, wrong, good, bad, whatever that is the decision I've made. Thats the background of the situation on to the meat of it. Out of desperation I found some corn stalk hay at $35 a roll, last year I paid $40 a roll for near horse quality coastal, I also found some decent grass hay at $80 a roll. I have 1/2 and 1/2 and it should last until spring. I know I'm going to have to supplement with cubes or tubs. Initially it looks cheaper to go with cubes, obviously more labor, but other than labor is there another benefit with tubs? Do they also provide minerals? If so that may swing the cost over to tubs. I've seen some negative comments on here about TSC tubs, what is the diferance, an alternative and what to look for? Also should I alternate the hay type or feed all one and then switch. Blast me if you must but I honestly need advice from folks who are experienced, unfortunately I'm learning as I go and don't have any friends or family with this type of experience.
Mark

 

[JSCATTLE]

I use pvm tubs ... made by positive feeds in Texas... I prefer to feed cotton seed cubes ... the tubs have some mineral in it but I keep out mineral anyway... try to get the cooked tubs they are harder and the cows can't stand there and chew it

 

[1982vett]

Read the lables...on bags....on tubs....on any feed product you buy. That is where you will find the information to decipher the difference from bag to bag and tub to tub...

In my opinion.......forget about the corn stalks....use the money to buy more grass hay......

By the way and for what it's worth.......I didn't sell anymore cows today (I'm at 30% of capacity).....sort of feel the odds are now in my favor to feed what I have. I do reserve the right to change my mind in 30 days....

 

[MadRanchTX]

Vett, as I said i'm learning as I go. I knew the protein was going to be low but I can suppliment. It took me about 10 seconds to figure out the corn stalks are not the way to go when I pulled the netting off the first one and the bale fell apart into a big lump, I set the hay ring on top of the whole mess, scratched my head and started laughing at myself. Looked like a crooked top hat. Live and learn. I won't be buying them again. Maybe I can resell them for $65 a bale like I'm seeing on craigslist this week. I'm just kidding I wouldn't do that. I'm not pokeing at the hay folks either, I fully realize the honest hay folks aren't going to make any money this year even with the inflated prices.

 

[1982vett]

Selling it for what you have in it would be a good option. About the only way to make good use of it is to chop it and mix it as a ration. Others pour molasses over it to get them to eat it - or clean more of it up...

 

[Brute 23]

I wouldn't try holding onto the corn stalk hay long. Feed it first. We bought some simular stuff during a previous drought and it served its purpose but does not keep well like grass hay.

On the cube, hay, tub deal. Alot of people like to say well a cow has to have this many pounds of this much grass, protein, ect. They follow the manual right up until the day they are out of hay, broke, and having to sell out.

I prefer to take an inventory of what I have in pasture, hay, and cash to spend on feed. From there I back into how much I can feed which is usually a mixture of every thing. You can't feed all your hay the first month trying not to buy feed. You HAVE TO stretch out the hay as long as possible. You can buy tubs and cubes all day long in a drought... not hay. So if I pick a date like May 2012 I will back into how much hay can be fed per X amount of days. Same thing with tubs and cubes. If the amount of cattle you have won't make it on that ration then sell down to what will. Its a plain and simple budget.

When it comes to how much to put into cattle vs selling out its pretty simple. If you take the current value of your cattle and subtract it from what you think it will cost you to replace that animal post-drought you will know what you can put into that animal in feed. Any more than that and you were better off selling out and buying back in later.

Nothing ever works as planned. It either goes better or worse. I am not saying this is the right way or best way but it has worked for myself and the people who taught me.

 

[mikegahr]

We use Crystelix tubs 30% it is supposed to last 30 hd. for 30 days but on avg. by time i do all my figuring on amount of cow and tubs it come out about 35 days.

 

[Lucky_P]

Mad,
Think about Limit-Feeding a forage and energy/protein source.
We were in a similar situation in 2007. Drought, no local hay, folks paying $90/roll for cornstalks and crappy CRP residue harvested in October. Came close to selling out, but we bought in some decent hay from out west(swore I'd never pay that much, but we did; even with hauling, it was $70/roll - less than some folks paid for CRP residue locally) and limit-fed it and modified distiller's grain product from the local ethanol plant (you could substitute soyhull pellets, CSM, sunflower meal, etc., - whatever protein source was readily available and affordable.

Cows can get by with as little as 5 pounds/hd/day of roughage(actually, some studies have shown as little as 2.5# will work), if you meet energy/protein requirements elsewhere.
We were shooting for 10# of hay/cow/day - which worked out to be each of the two groups(Fall/Spring calving) having 1 to 1.25 hours at the hay feeders, then coming out to eat 10-12#/hd/day of modified distiller's grain product.
Yeah, the cows said that 'they didn't get enough', and they stood around for the next 22 hours, just waiting for their next shot at the feed, but it works. It's hell on the sacrifice paddocks though - not a speck of vegetation left, long before spring ever rolls around.

It worked so well for us - and the cows came through that winter in far better body condition than they ever had before when they had all the crappy locally-produced hay I could keep in front of them - that we've continued the limit-feeding program for the following 3 winters. Guess we'll be doing it again this year, as we've purchased about the same amount of hay we bought last year, back in June.

Added benefits - my cows and calves are so much easier to handle/work - for 4-5 months, they have to walk past you to get in to the hay feeding area, then past you again to get to the feed bunks, then back out to pasture. I can do things with them - like cutting out a particular cow or calf - that would have been unimaginable 5 years ago. Calves are 'bunk broke' from an early age, so weaning is less stressful, and my buyer benefits, as well.

 

[TexasBred]

We use Crystelix tubs 30% it is supposed to last 30 hd. for 30 days but on avg. by time i do all my figuring on amount of cow and tubs it come out about 35 days.

MIke if the eat nor more than that it hardly justifies even putting it out. Even at 30% protein.

 

[deenranch]

I would feed the corn stalks first. I would also go with regular 20% cubes. Cotton is scarce this year and cotton seed cubes are going to be extremely high. Put the hay ring on the corn hay before you cut the net or string off. I would also try a liquid feed. It will make the cows feel fuller.

Keep in mind that your cows are gonna look like hammered poop (skinny) when spring rolls around.

Figure out a day in the spring that you think you will stop feeding. Then take the number of bales you have and see what day you need to put a bale out. Stretch it as far as you can. Just make sure they have plenty of water. Because there is not any moisture in the grass or most of the hay, if you bought it in TEXAS!!!

Good luck and keep PRAYING FOR RAIN

 

[MadRanchTX]

Pray for rain and that the well is deep enough. The good thing is the folks I bought my place from ran water everywhere. The bad thing is its only a couple inches deep. I'm getting pretty good at repairing broken PVC lines. Rerunning the water is near the top of my 8000 item list. My wife keeps telling me 'You dumb a$$ people retire from farming' Well I have another 20-25 years until retiring from my day job assuming we can get the country back on track, if not I'll probably keel over in the middle of one of the Chinese reeducation classes. I think it was the Russian general that said 'We never had any plans to invade the US, too many people with guns' The Chinese won't have to invade, once they own everything they can just move in.
Right now I've been feeding the CS and giving 2-3 lbs cubes/head a day, they still eat a bale about twice as fast as a hay bale. Not sure why that is? I'm going to have to find more hay. I'm about out of cubes, I'll stop at the feed store and talk to them about tubs and liquid feed.
Mark

 

[baleflipper]

Forget the tubs. Build troughs out of wood. Buy a salt and meal , Cottonseed meal ,ground grain and salt ration. The salt controls cosumption cows will stay in better shape than on tubs of any type. Just have plenty water for them to drink.We been doing this for many winters.Tubs one cow can whip the others away. Long wooden troughs more cows can feed.

 

[Brute 23]

We use Crystelix tubs 30% it is supposed to last 30 hd. for 30 days but on avg. by time i do all my figuring on amount of cow and tubs it come out about 35 days.

MIke if the eat nor more than that it hardly justifies even putting it out. Even at 30% protein.

Is it that the tub isn't working properly or that they don't need the protein? Tubs are meant to supplement what they aren't getting else where. Maybe his don't need that much.

I have good luck with Crystalix and PVM. ;-)

 

[1982vett]

I'm not supplementing with anything......hay tested 12%+ two years ago after it set in the barn 4 months....mineral, salt, hay and water.......that's it....I guess I could say pasture but that's mostly their exercise program.

 

[spinandslide]

Put the hay ring on the corn hay before you cut the net or string off.

:nod: :nod: :nod:

 

[TexasBred]

We use Crystelix tubs 30% it is supposed to last 30 hd. for 30 days but on avg. by time i do all my figuring on amount of cow and tubs it come out about 35 days.

MIke if the eat nor more than that it hardly justifies even putting it out. Even at 30% protein.

Is it that the tub isn't working properly or that they don't need the protein? Tubs are meant to supplement what they aren't getting else where. Maybe his don't need that much.

I have good luck with Crystalix and PVM. ;-)

Consumption is just so low they hardly know they've had anything. He didnt' give the weight of the tub but assuming it weighed 200 lbs. they're getting about 3 oz per head per day. Perhaps they don't need anymore...30 cows on one tub is way too many....but as I said "if they don't eat any more than that it hardly justifies putting it out" unless you just want to blow $80 bucks every month.

 

[MadRanchTX]

spinandslide
I thought that was funny too.

Second go round thats what I did but still couldn't get the bottom foot or so of the netting off before it was buried in that fine corn hay, and yes I started cutting from the bottom. At least it didn't look like a crooked top hat. Frick a fracka!!!
My dads favorite saying was 'Boy if it was easy we'd have the women folk doing it' No offense to the ladies.For some reason my wife never could appreciate those pearls of wisdom. Dads been gone for almost 20 years, truly amazing how those little gems pop into your head once in a while. It's a shame I got those gems instead of this is how you get the netting off the bale before it gets stomped into the residue and less pleasant things.

 

[Brute 23]

MIke if the eat nor more than that it hardly justifies even putting it out. Even at 30% protein.

Is it that the tub isn't working properly or that they don't need the protein? Tubs are meant to supplement what they aren't getting else where. Maybe his don't need that much.

I have good luck with Crystalix and PVM. ;-)

Consumption is just so low they hardly know they've had anything. He didnt' give the weight of the tub but assuming it weighed 200 lbs. they're getting about 3 oz per head per day. Perhaps they don't need anymore...30 cows on one tub is way too many....but as I said "if they don't eat any more than that it hardly justifies putting it out" unless you just want to blow $80 bucks every month.

I am not saying your wrong but you can't make that assumption based on the info given. For all we know he fed hay on monday that lasted 3 days, cubes on Thurdsay and Friday... then made them scrounge around for forage over the weekend where they utilize the tubs the most. Or he may have 15 cows with calves consuming the majority and the other 15 are getting by on the forage.

If you watch how the cattle actually use the tubs its really only in super dry years that all the cattle hit them hard. Its more common to see big calves that are at that weaning age, cows nursing calves, bulls who have been breeding cattle. You can see the rotations of the animals that need it hanging around the tubs and the others don't frequent them any where near as much. That is why you can't average out the tub over the whole heard in all cases.

 

[TexasBred]

Brute you can average anything. Only way to have any idea what's going on the pasture. You can't count mouthfulls nor weigh them. I've never seen cattle refuse a molasses tub when it was offered to them unless it was so worthless they just didn't like it and I have seen some of those. Even bought a few. But I guess you're right since he didn't give us any exact methods of feeding, grazing, haying, etc. etc. I guess we can assume damn near anything. But the fact is that "on average" they didn't eat enough of that tub everyday to do one bit of good. All the Crystalyx 30% tubs I've seen show feeding rates of .5 to 1.5 lbs. per head per day.

 

[Brute 23]

I am all about keeping books and running numbers. Its how I make my living. I have years of books from cattle and O&G wells. It really all works the same. You can average any thing, but it may give you a false sense of what is really going on. Averaging does not take into account real life day to day conditions. There is no equation that can replace spending time in the pasture and watching the habit of animals and the conditions that effect those habits.

In a normal year there are places where our mineral and molasses consumption go to near zero. To say you have never seen a cow pass up a molasses says more about the quality of your pasture than the tub.

Say your feeding cattle and you have a young cow that looks like crap compared to the others. You do the math, on average all the cattle are getting adequate feed/ day. Whats going on? Sell her because she is inferior? After feeding and watching you find out all the old cattle with horns are keeping her pushed off from the feeder. You add a feeder where they can all fit at once and she turns around. Your calculator would have told you to sell her but all you needed was an extra chair at the dinner table. :tiphat: