Reoccurring Pneumonia?

[dodiewayne]

First, we are new to this. We bought 3 bottle calves from a dairy. Two bulls one heifer. It was cold and nasty the day we went to pick them up. Had to travel about 20 miles with them. We covered pen to keep wind off of them. Well all was going well for a few days until the biggest one , 5 week old Holstein bull had a cough. We thought maybe it was just the weather and the move. The next day his cough was a little worse and he was all snotty when we went out to feed him. We checked his temp and it was a little over 104. We called the local vet. He told us we could bring him down there and he would give him a shot but he would probably die anyway and so would the other two. I was so upset. I had no idea what to do, so I went to the internet. I knew antibiotics was probably what he needed. But which ones? I saw so many recommendations. Nuflor, penicillins, LA 200 and so on. Then some said NO to penicillin. I was so confused. Then what's next, I get the heifer with scours. Crap! What a way to start. So I go to tractor supply. Talk with them and they recommend the long acting penicillins for the pneumonia and calf bolus (oxytetracycline 500mg) for the scours. So we gave the bull a 3ml SQ injection and started them all on bollus. Also gave the bull aspirin for the now 105.4 temp. Separated them. Well the bull with cough looked so much better the next morning. Continued with the bollus the recommended twice a day for 4 days. And gave another penicillin injection 48 hours later. So no more cough, no more fever. This was almost two weeks ago. Now again with the cough a few days ago. Damn it ugg. Bless his heart. Next morning had a little green snot in one nostril. No fever. No apparent breathing problems. Still eating good. Still up and going as usual. Well that night he had trouble starting with his bottle, he would suck a little then stop and so on. Then stopped that and sucked it down. He's a bit of a pig lol. I talked to some other people that raise cows and they are like, just go get a Nuflor shot from vet. He will sell you the injection for you to give. So next day went to see vet hoping to see the other one that works in the office. Nope. Only the one I talked to originally. He refused to help. He said I had to bring him there. Well one problem, this calf weighs about 150+ lbs and I can't lift him anymore. I have been trying to get my son to help but he has not got off work in time to help me get him loaded and to vet before he closes. I tried to explain to vet but he just said sorry. So now I am stuck. I started the penicillin again. But wonder if it took care of it completely last time or left some and now this is why he is at it again. Someone recommended LA 200 but I was thinking, that is the same thing that is in the calf bollus I was giving, except the bollus had 500mg where the LA 200 has 200mg. But the difference could be one is oral and other is IM. Anyway, now I swear his front legs look a little swollen around the knee joints. My husband says I am insane but it is the first thing I noticed when we went to feed tonight. I have read that this is a progression of pneumonia? I am so upset. Is it unreasonable for me to ask vet for help without bringing calf up there. Transport causes pneumonia and I don't want to make it worse, even if I could lift him. What to do now. Is there anything that works besides prescription meds?

 

[kenny thomas]

Where did you buy the calves, maybe if it was a dairy farm they can help you.

 

[farmerjan]

Welcome to CT. Not a good way to get started I am sure. First off. Since you said 20 miles to get them home, I am assuming that the dairy is 20 miles from you. Go to the dairy, or call them first. Tell them what you are having trouble with. They are used to dealing with baby calves and if they "blow you off" they could lose other sales; so I think they might help you. I would put him back on the penicillin for starters. It won't hurt him. LA 200 or LA 300 aren't the greatest for pneumonia, but you might switch to that after you finish the course of pen... sometimes it takes a longer treatment period. Plus now you are dealing with the swelling in the joints.

Unfortunately, yes it is unreasonable to ask the vet to prescribe something without seeing the calf if you are new to this. The Regulations, called the VET FEED DIRECTIVE (VFD) has to do with anything that can be added to feed that is a drug that can be used in people. It also went into vets' NOT treating animals that they have not PHYSICALLY SEEN. The VFD went into effect Jan. 1, 2016, and forbids him to prescribe treatment without having first seeing the animal. If you were an established customer, with lots of experience, and had used him for your cattle on a regular basis, he might feel more comfortable that you know what is going on. In this case, he is right to not do it. It could mean his liscense if he gave you something and they died and you wanted to make a federal case out of it. NOT SAYING YOU WOULD... but try to see it from his point.

Does the dairy use the same vet? Possibly the vet is going to the dairy for a regular visit and could stop by your place? Yes it will cost you. But if you establish a relationship with the vet, they are much more likely to sell you a bottle of say Nuflor, or something to keep in the fridge for you to use when needed.... saving you both a trip. But you have to establish this working relationship.

The swollen knees, joints could be navel ill, which can happen from bacteria getting into the blood stream and into the joints, from a navel that was not dipped in iodine at birth. Most dairies don't bother with bull calves they aren't going to raise.

Call the dairy, see if they can help you and go from there.

Also, didn't see where you are from. General area, like the state, will help with some concerns. Maybe there is a CT member near you that could help. But I really think you need to bite the bullet, get the vet out and start developing the "WORKING RELATIOSHIP" with a vet so that you can understand better what you are doing.

 

[farmerjan]

Also, just wanted to say I don't like the attitude if the vet said that they would probably all die. I think I would try to find a vet with a little more diplomacy and decency. His attitude sucks.
Also, any large animal vets will and do make "farm calls". So if the vet isn't willing to do that, he is not the vet for you.
But understand, that a farm call here will run about $100-150 just for the call, plus mileage, plus whatever he does. It's NOT CHEAP and with today's prices, cattle are really not going to make it practical to have him come out very often.
And this is the worst time of year to get started with baby calves if you aren't experienced because they can and do get sick very quickly. It is more the ups and downs and the sudden changes in the weather; and we have had so much rain here that it has caused alot of pneumonia and other respiratory problems as well as other concerns.

 

[callmefence]

Everyone says no to penicillin these days.
We've had a pretty rough year for pneumonia. Using the higher power stuff. Excede , nuflor along with dexamethasone we've had a high precentage of chronics and lost two.
I switched to penicillin" durapen" at about 2&1/2 times the recommended dosage. Along with a small dose of Dex.
The few I've worked this way recovered completely within a couple days. Just one shot and turned back out.

 

[Bigfoot]

We all started somewhere, and most of our starts we're about as glorious as the start your having. Bottle calves can be a challenge. Especially, when you basically have to buy every single solitary thing they eat, and continually drag them away from deaths door. A weaned calf, might be a better starting place, and they are usually a little more hearty.

 

[TCRanch]

Everyone says no to penicillin these days.
We've had a pretty rough year for pneumonia. Using the higher power stuff. Excede , nuflor along with dexamethasone we've had a high precentage of chronics and lost two.
I switched to penicillin" durapen" at about 2&1/2 times the recommended dosage. Along with a small dose of Dex.
The few I've worked this way recovered completely within a couple days. Just one shot and turned back out.

When I had my pneumonia nightmare with my weaned calved I used Resflor Gold with amazing results. That said, penicillin is underrated. Yes, you definitely have to pretty much double the dosage but I've had good luck with Combi-Pen-48 before and on a Facebook cattle site a lot of them are treating pneumonia with just penicillin.
Not pneumonia but a friend of mine had a heavy bred cow with woody tongue. Vet didn't want to treat with sodium iodide because of the potential for abortion/preemie so he treated with penicillin & Excenel. She followed up with penicillin a couple more times & the cow has completely recovered.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Everyone says no to penicillin these days.
We've had a pretty rough year for pneumonia. Using the higher power stuff. Excede , nuflor along with dexamethasone we've had a high precentage of chronics and lost two.
I switched to penicillin" durapen" at about 2&1/2 times the recommended dosage. Along with a small dose of Dex.
The few I've worked this way recovered completely within a couple days. Just one shot and turned back out.

I've been extremely fortunate and haven't treated any pneumonia since last summer. My neighbor has had quite a few. Our regiment generally consists of Baytril. We get the quickest response from Baytril but we usually have about 50% retreatments. On his we started giving Baytril, Penicillin and Dex. NO retreats. Go figure. I was one of the ones that had quit using penicillin. But not anymore.

 

[Dirt Farmer]

I'll second the thought about finding a new vet. Saying they'll probably all die is not something I'd agree with at that stage.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Welcome to the board. I agree - Penicillin is highly UNDER-RATED. My vet does recommend the high dollar new meds - but, for some things, he still has me go to Pen for treatment - but, 2X - 3X normal dose. Not recommended you to triple the dose, but a vet can.
And Jan is correct. A vet CANNOT sell you any drugs for an animal he has not seen. But, your vet sounds like he sucks.

 

[farmerjan]

Another "one post wonder" ?????? Seen nothing more from this poster.