Registering Cattle.

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes, color is irrelevant to us. I tell people I don't care if they are red, black or purple & polka dotted - just so they are good!
I do prefer my reds - with splashes of white on the face. Of course, I started out with only Fullblood semen available to use. There were NO bulls available - just imported semen - back in 1971 - each calf was a surprise!

 

[Hoser]

Ooops - we were posting at the same time
Simmental books are open to use any breed for upgrading - but, many (most) breeds require DNA testing because of genetic defects known in their breed. Angus is top on the list, then Chi, Shorthorn, MaineAnjou, etc. It doesn't stop you from upgrading, your offspring just needs to be DNA tested for defects. You are still allowed to register them if they are positive for a defect (I totally disagree with this), but the defect is listed on the papers and follows thru with all offspring needing to be tested also.

Fleckvieh cattle is Simmental - registered with the ASA (Simmental). If they are "full" Fleckvieh, they are known as FULLBLOOD Simmentals. They must have at least 5 generations of FB ancestry. Turns out people were importing semen/cattle from Europe that were "called" FB, but were actually % cattle. We use Fleckvieh sires or % Fleckvieh's in Simmental breeding programs. Fleck's are dirty fronted but used to be a lot heavier muscled. Many used Flecks to breed to Angus to clean up their shoulders and front ends. "Block" front ends tend to be hard calving.

I believe Angus & Hereford are the only breeds that do not allow upgrading (in the beef breeds). Not sure if that is right, someone else may know another.
Back in the 80's, a National Angus Rep was at the NY State Fair, and he refused to let any animals sired by a certain bull show, because DNA had proven the sire to be "unpure".

The breed up program really helped the Simmental breed. I found it interesting seeing two blue simmental sell all the Lewis Farms sale last year.

 

[ccr]

Used to think Simmental was fleck, and others (black) was Simmental influenced or Simmental cross, but maybe semantics for some or "upgrading" has changed that. Kinda like black Herefords, black Charolais, and other breeds that are crossed with black Angus due to the market for the Certified Angus Beef.

If it wasn't for the Certified Angus Beef marketing would there be these upgrading or breed up programs? Is this upgrading based on the Black Angus being a superior breed or because of the great marketing of Angus association?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@ccr - you do joke? There was no CAB when Simmental first came here, 1968. Almost all the bulls imported were from Switzerland, "Simmenthal" at that time. I had black Simmental back in 1972 because you bought semen, bred to whatever you had in your herd. I happened to have some BWF and had some straight blacks. Got black calves and/or greys out of the cows . I don't know when we started importing Fleck semen.
Yes, CAB had huge influence on all breeds because of the carcass increased prices.
The Simmental upgrading program was a necessity if the breed was going to be established in the USA. And we continue to have upgrading because with it we can "create" an animal that FITS your area, your program. All Continental breeds have upgrading because that was the only way to start the breed. Importing Fullbloods is too expensive and takes way too long.
I truly believe Angus beef "used" to be a super great breed, but I also believe they have done a great job in ruining their breed chasing carcass/marbling traits. I personally believe they started chasing marbling because their cattle were having a hard time certifying CAB.

 

[cbcr]

As the International Dairy Cattle Registry, one of the breeds that we register is Fleckvieh. The Fleckvieh is considered a dual purpose breed but there are lines that are more productive for dairy and others that are better suited for beef. Most of the semen that is used is imported from Germany and Austria.

Many breeders have bred up from Holstein to purebred and there are a few that have imported embryos.

There are some differences between Fleckvieh and Simmental. They are both members of the Simmental breed but the Fleckvieh is a little more moderate in their size, this is one thing that many breeders like about the Fleckvieh. Some will argue that Fleckvieh and Simmental is one and the same, but this is not the case.

As we register the Fleckvieh (as well as other dairy breeds) any bull or animal that is a carrier of a genetic defect has an * at the end of their name. Also we use the actual breed percentage on animals. We DO NOT round up 87.5% animals to 100% in calculating the breed percentages in the next generation. With the genetic defect, there are some of the defects that cannot be tested for here in the US.

We have been doing registrations for almost 8 years and our organization has grown. We also process beef registrations for Heritage Shorthorn Society, American Pinzgauer Association the Wagyu Cattle Registry, U.S. Normande Breeders Organization.

To our knowledge, Angus and Hereford are the only herdbooks that are closed and do not allow for grading up.

 

[cbcr]

@ccr - you do joke? There was no CAB when Simmental first came here, 1968. Almost all the bulls imported were from Switzerland, "Simmenthal" at that time. I had black Simmental back in 1972 because you bought semen, bred to whatever you had in your herd. I happened to have some BWF and had some straight blacks. Got black calves and/or greys out of the cows . I don't know when we started importing Fleck semen.
Yes, CAB had huge influence on all breeds because of the carcass increased prices.
The Simmental upgrading program was a necessity if the breed was going to be established in the USA. And we continue to have upgrading because with it we can "create" an animal that FITS your area, your program. All Continental breeds have upgrading because that was the only way to start the breed. Importing Fullbloods is too expensive and takes way too long.
I truly believe Angus beef "used" to be a super great breed, but I also believe they have done a great job in ruining their breed chasing carcass/marbling traits. I personally believe they started chasing marbling because their cattle were having a hard time certifying CAB.

Very good comments Jeanne! We did some research I think it was early last year, the only reason the Angus breed was able to have better carcass qualities was due to being fed to heavier weights. What was surprising was the fact that almost 25% of the beef consumed in the US is from dairy beef (Holstein most notably) and their is a higher percentage of the dairy beef that grades choice and prime than the beef breeds.

It was also noted in the research that there are two other breeds that can have as much or even more of an impact on carcass quality than Angus and that was Fleckvieh and Hereford.

CAB has done a great job on their marketing, that that is mainly what it is "marketing". CAB is supposed to be animals that are at least 51% black hided, but their are also other breeds and colors that have qualified for CAB.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@cbcr You are correct - CAB is a PROGRAM run by AAA. They have done a tremendous job of marketing. "One" of the live requirements is 51% black hide (also of beef breeds). Many beef breeds qualify IF they are black. I have had my steers marketed (Purebred Simmental) for many, many years as CAB and I get paid the premium.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I would agree that Fleck should have great carcass traits. The Simmental breed is the #1 marbling Continental breed. Angus is #1 in the British breeds.
I do disagree with the statement concerning Hereford. Well, I do and I don't - they do have a big impact on carcass quality - usually a negative effect. They are slower marbling and put on more outside fat. That is why the RWF Hereford looking steers have been discounted in the sale ring for years.

 

[ksmit454]

"Breeding up" in the Simmental registry is as Jeanne described. You can start with any breed - registered or not, even an unknown mixed breed cow. Breed the cow to a purebred simmental bull and the calf is registered as 50% simmental. Breed that heifer to a purebred simmental and the calf is 75%. Once more and the calf is 87.5% simmental which is considered as "purebred". If you start with a known registered cow of another breed (such as angus), the EPD's and pedigree of the beginning cow can be imported into the simmental database and you end up with more accurate EPD's and a deeper pedigree listed. If you have a non-registered cow you start with, you list the breed composition (such as 1/2 Holstein, 1/4 Hereford, 1/4 Charolais) and the simmental association calculates EPD's for your beginning cow based on breed averages and breed composition. Once you reach 87.5% simmental, it is considered as 100% simmental for breeding purposes.

The sim-angus is just a percentage simmental. Breeding up works the same whether there is angus or another breed involved. Simmental registry is where the sim-angus are recorded. Angus association registry does not have any of these animals. Now, some angus purebred breeders have started sim-angus programs and have memberships in the simmental association in order to register their sim-angus calves and have EPD's calculated for their sim-angus.

The simmental association is obviously not a closed registry. They have a very large database because of that with lots of non-simmental cattle in the database as well as all the registered sim-angus. Many Angus AI bulls are also registered in the simmental database with simmental EPD's calculated/assigned. Simmental association has always pushed crossbreeding for the hybrid vigor. Angus says that they have everything needed genetically in their closed registry. Bringing in outside genetics is allowed in the simmental breed with the advantages and disadvantages. Outside genetics in angus has resulted in some white spots and is not officially allowed. With DNA testing for parentage now required for AI sires and major show winners in some breeds, I understand that not matching to the sire is now an issue in purebred cattle - whether it is an honest mistake or otherwise.

Prior to DNA parentage verification, tampering with the genetics in breeds with a closed registry was more common. Hereford and angus for sure in the 80's. There was a Polled Hereford bull KLC RB3 PERFECTION that had the frame and growth of a simmental. When the investigation started, the dam of the bull had suddenly died and no DNA was available, Lot's of money made for a few and lots of money lost for many. Ended in shame and disgrace and lawsuits.

Thank you for that explanation. Is there a way to find out what breeds allow breeding up? Ideally I would like to do that with my Herefords, so I could register them as 50%, 75%, etc. It makes sense how you described that Simmental encourages hybrids and that Angus says that have it all. Really neat info, thanks!

 

[ksmit454]

Ooops - we were posting at the same time
Simmental books are open to use any breed for upgrading - but, many (most) breeds require DNA testing because of genetic defects known in their breed. Angus is top on the list, then Chi, Shorthorn, MaineAnjou, etc. It doesn't stop you from upgrading, your offspring just needs to be DNA tested for defects. You are still allowed to register them if they are positive for a defect (I totally disagree with this), but the defect is listed on the papers and follows thru with all offspring needing to be tested also.

Fleckvieh cattle is Simmental - registered with the ASA (Simmental). If they are "full" Fleckvieh, they are known as FULLBLOOD Simmentals. They must have at least 5 generations of FB ancestry. Turns out people were importing semen/cattle from Europe that were "called" FB, but were actually % cattle. We use Fleckvieh sires or % Fleckvieh's in Simmental breeding programs. Fleck's are dirty fronted but used to be a lot heavier muscled. Many used Flecks to breed to Angus to clean up their shoulders and front ends. "Block" front ends tend to be hard calving.

I believe Angus & Hereford are the only breeds that do not allow upgrading (in the beef breeds). Not sure if that is right, someone else may know another.
Back in the 80's, a National Angus Rep was at the NY State Fair, and he refused to let any animals sired by a certain bull show, because DNA had proven the sire to be "unpure".

Thank you for the information, that is really helpful! I love the knowledge you have and shared with us. I'm trying to see what would be best to breed to my Herefords.

 

[cbcr]

Thank you for that explanation. Is there a way to find out what breeds allow breeding up? Ideally I would like to do that with my Herefords, so I could register them as 50%, 75%, etc. It makes sense how you described that Simmental encourages hybrids and that Angus says that have it all. Really neat info, thanks!

Most all of the breeds have a breeding up program except Angus and Hereford. What breeds seem to intrigue you the most or what are you trying to work toward or your goals. There are a few different ways to go with a Hereford base. What breeds are most prominent in your area?

It would be advisable to select a breed that access to genetics would be easy. Are you looking for strictly beef or even a dual purpose breed.

Another thing to look at is what does a membership to the breed association cost, what is the cost to register a calf, etc.

Look at different breeds and then just as you have done, ask about them here.

Here is a link from Oklahoma State that has information about many breeds of cattle. http://afs.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle

 

[ksmit454]

Most all of the breeds have a breeding up program except Angus and Hereford. What breeds seem to intrigue you the most or what are you trying to work toward or your goals. There are a few different ways to go with a Hereford base. What breeds are most prominent in your area?

It would be advisable to select a breed that access to genetics would be easy. Are you looking for strictly beef or even a dual purpose breed.

Another thing to look at is what does a membership to the breed association cost, what is the cost to register a calf, etc.

Look at different breeds and then just as you have done, ask about them here.

Here is a link from Oklahoma State that has information about many breeds of cattle. http://afs.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle

I learned a bit about Murray Grey cattle which seem super intriguing to me. I would like to stay strictly with beef cattle. I like shorthorns too. I would like to breed decent stock for the local FFA kids in are area for their projects. I currently raise finish out my Angus and sell grain finished to people in my area, so I also want to keep doing that. The Angus that I have bought so far have just been feeder calves but I'd like to breed my own with the Herefords I have too.

 

[cbcr]

I learned a bit about Murray Grey cattle which seem super intriguing to me. I would like to stay strictly with beef cattle. I like shorthorns too. I would like to breed decent stock for the local FFA kids in are area for their projects. I currently raise finish out my Angus and sell grain finished to people in my area, so I also want to keep doing that. The Angus that I have bought so far have just been feeder calves but I'd like to breed my own with the Herefords I have too.

There are some members on here that breed Murray Grey. Also if you should decide to breed to Shorthorn, stay with the Heritage cattle, go to Heritage Shorthorn Society for information about the Heritage Shorthorn.

Another option to consider is a Wagyu. From conversations that we have had with some who feed them out, 25% Wagyu for them seen to be a good percentage. Cattle grade really well and they also finish easily. Higher percentage Wagyu take a longer period of time to finish.

 

[TwoByrdsMG]

ksmit454- We have Murray Greys. Black, chocolate, dun, smoke, silver and near white in color. They also have a breed up program. Semen available from some places too. I like the temperament, solid colors and black skin which reduces issues like cancer eye. Several local breeders cross them with Herefords for the hybrid vigor or cross purebred Murray cows to use for 4H kids because of the temperament. I have a 4H kid locally that always takes one of my purebreds because they are so gentle.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@cbcr - I don't think the Heritage Sh or Wagyu will give him "show" type animals for 4-H kids. The knowledgeable kids want the current Xbred Shorties with all the color and hair. Wagyu at any % will never cut it for a quality show steer.
You gave him good advice "It would be advisable to select a breed that access to genetics would be easy."
Murry Grey are not one of the most popular breed, but I have to agree that their crossbreds would be good steers.
As mentioned, you need to check around and see what's popular in your area - what brings good money at the auction? Even if you don't plan to sell at auction - that will kind of dictate prices off the farm. I raise top notch PB show type cattle and replacement breeding stock - but, the local steer market affects me because half my calf crop will be males and I castrate 90-95% of them. I don't ship to the local market, but it influences what my feedlot buyer is willing to pay for mine.

 

[SPH]

Ok thanks. I would be able to do that but unfortunately the history on these Herefords is unknown. I purchased them from a guy who acquired them with the purchase of acreage and he knew nothing about them. The two heifers were born on my property so I know their birth date but that is all.

Unless these are just some tremendous animals if you want to get into the registered business you would be best just starting with some registered females from a reputable Hereford breeder because trying to chase down if these animals could be registered is probably going to be a time consuming and expensive process. First off if the guy you bought them from knows nothing about them you would need to know who he bought them from to even start the research on them. It is possible to register Herefords if you can trace back the ancestry and get the DNA testing to validate it but unless you have some solid ancestry history to go off the chances you could trace those animals back to be able to register them as purebreds (if they even are purebred) are probably very slim and not worth the investment to do so.

There are a lot of crossbreds out there that could pass as a Hereford on color pattern alone. My brother in law has a commercial cattle operation and has never used a Hereford bull but he has cows and calves that at first glance you would swear are mostly Hereford because he's mixed up enough breeds over the years in his herd he gets a red and white faced calf from time to time that you would swear looks like a Hereford.

If you want to raise registered purebred cattle the best way to get started is find a reputable breeder that has been around awhile and keeps good records on their cattle that has heifers or bred yearling heifers for sale that fit what you are looking for and buy a group. Use that as your foundation, cull what you don't like or doesn't perform well and keep the heifer calves to build on and go from there. If you are breeding with good bulls each calf crop should gradually get better.

 

[ksmit454]

ksmit454- We have Murray Greys. Black, chocolate, dun, smoke, silver and near white in color. They also have a breed up program. Semen available from some places too. I like the temperament, solid colors and black skin which reduces issues like cancer eye. Several local breeders cross them with Herefords for the hybrid vigor or cross purebred Murray cows to use for 4H kids because of the temperament. I have a 4H kid locally that always takes one of my purebreds because they are so gentle.

How neat, I love Murray Greys and would love to own a few registered stock at some point.