Registering Cattle.

[ksmit454]

This may seem like a silly question, but I am trying to learn more about breeding. I currently have a cow, and two heifers. They are all 3 Herefords but none are registered. If I were to breed them to registered stock, would I be able to register the offspring? Or, do both the cow and bull need to be registered?

 

[A.J.]

Hi. That's not a silly question. The bull and cow would need to be registered to be able to register the offspring. If selling you could advertise them as purebred, just not registered.

 

[cbcr]

The Hereford Herdbooks are closed, but the offspring can be registered with the Composite Beef Cattle Registry. One of the first projects we did almost 8 years ago was provide export certificates for 220 Hereford heifers being exported to Russia. They were sired by Registered Hereford bulls and out of dams that were not registered but the ancestry was known.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Also, if you use a breed like Simmental, the offspring is registerable as a %. Use a PB Simmental bull, the offspring will be registered as a 50% Simmental. You can upgrade to Purebred. 1st cross 50%, 2nd cross 75%, then PB, if using a PB bull each time. With the Composite Beef Cattle Registry, you will never have a registered animal or upgrade to PB. All they do is provide you a piece of paper listing the pedigree of known animals in the ancestry. Not knocking it, just explaining.

 

[Ky hills]

Also, if you use a breed like Simmental, the offspring is registerable as a %. Use a PB Simmental bull, the offspring will be registered as a 50% Simmental. You can upgrade to Purebred. 1st cross 50%, 2nd cross 75%, then PB, if using a PB bull each time. With the Composite Beef Cattle Registry, you will never have a registered animal or upgrade to PB. All they do is provide you a piece of paper listing the pedigree of known animals in the ancestry. Not knocking it, just explaining.

I have a question regarding Simmental upgrading to purebred. I have heard a lot about SimAngus but is the grading up a different distinction from that? Are other breeds acceptable to use in breeding up?

 

[ksmit454]

The Hereford Herdbooks are closed, but the offspring can be registered with the Composite Beef Cattle Registry. One of the first projects we did almost 8 years ago was provide export certificates for 220 Hereford heifers being exported to Russia. They were sired by Registered Hereford bulls and out of dams that were not registered but the ancestry was known.

Ok thanks. I would be able to do that but unfortunately the history on these Herefords is unknown. I purchased them from a guy who acquired them with the purchase of acreage and he knew nothing about them. The two heifers were born on my property so I know their birth date but that is all.

 

[ksmit454]

Also, if you use a breed like Simmental, the offspring is registerable as a %. Use a PB Simmental bull, the offspring will be registered as a 50% Simmental. You can upgrade to Purebred. 1st cross 50%, 2nd cross 75%, then PB, if using a PB bull each time. With the Composite Beef Cattle Registry, you will never have a registered animal or upgrade to PB. All they do is provide you a piece of paper listing the pedigree of known animals in the ancestry. Not knocking it, just explaining.

Ok that makes sense. So if I wanted to breed these Herefords with say Angus, the offspring would then be registerable as 50% angus, then next generation 75%, and next full angus? Would they be able to be registered with Angus or Composite Beef Registry? Or would I need to continue to breed the cow and heifers to Hereford bulls?

 

[cbcr]

Ok that makes sense. So if I wanted to breed these Herefords with say Angus, the offspring would then be registerable as 50% angus, then next generation 75%, and next full angus? Would they be able to be registered with Angus or Composite Beef Registry? Or would I need to continue to breed the cow and heifers to Hereford bulls?

The Angus herdbooks are closed as well, so again if you breed to Angus they could be registered in the Composite Registry.

 

[76 Bar]

Numerous breeds have "Open" herd books. To my knowledge all make a distinction between those animals whose lineage is purportedly proven to not be commingled with other breeds and what they respectively consider percentage animals. The former is confusing as some registries persist in muddying the waters as to their definition of what constitutes full blood and purebred.

 

[ksmit454]

The Angus herdbooks are closed as well, so again if you breed to Angus they could be registered in the Composite Registry.

And can you please explain what you mean by a closed herdbook? Sorry this is all new to me

 

[ksmit454]

Numerous breeds have "Open" herd books. To my knowledge all make a distinction between those animals whose lineage is purportedly proven to not be commingled with other breeds and what they respectively consider percentage animals. The former is confusing as some registries persist in muddying the waters as to their definition of what constitutes full blood and purebred.

Ok, so basically each herd book varys on what breeds qualify for co-mingling?

 

[Ky hills]

And can you please explain what you mean by a closed herdbook? Sorry this is all new to me

Only offspring from an already registered sire and dam are permitted to be registered in a closed herd book

 

[simme]

I have a question regarding Simmental upgrading to purebred. I have heard a lot about SimAngus but is the grading up a different distinction from that? Are other breeds acceptable to use in breeding up?

"Breeding up" in the Simmental registry is as Jeanne described. You can start with any breed - registered or not, even an unknown mixed breed cow. Breed the cow to a purebred simmental bull and the calf is registered as 50% simmental. Breed that heifer to a purebred simmental and the calf is 75%. Once more and the calf is 87.5% simmental which is considered as "purebred". If you start with a known registered cow of another breed (such as angus), the EPD's and pedigree of the beginning cow can be imported into the simmental database and you end up with more accurate EPD's and a deeper pedigree listed. If you have a non-registered cow you start with, you list the breed composition (such as 1/2 Holstein, 1/4 Hereford, 1/4 Charolais) and the simmental association calculates EPD's for your beginning cow based on breed averages and breed composition. Once you reach 87.5% simmental, it is considered as 100% simmental for breeding purposes.

The sim-angus is just a percentage simmental. Breeding up works the same whether there is angus or another breed involved. Simmental registry is where the sim-angus are recorded. Angus association registry does not have any of these animals. Now, some angus purebred breeders have started sim-angus programs and have memberships in the simmental association in order to register their sim-angus calves and have EPD's calculated for their sim-angus.

The simmental association is obviously not a closed registry. They have a very large database because of that with lots of non-simmental cattle in the database as well as all the registered sim-angus. Many Angus AI bulls are also registered in the simmental database with simmental EPD's calculated/assigned. Simmental association has always pushed crossbreeding for the hybrid vigor. Angus says that they have everything needed genetically in their closed registry. Bringing in outside genetics is allowed in the simmental breed with the advantages and disadvantages. Outside genetics in angus has resulted in some white spots and is not officially allowed. With DNA testing for parentage now required for AI sires and major show winners in some breeds, I understand that not matching to the sire is now an issue in purebred cattle - whether it is an honest mistake or otherwise.

Prior to DNA parentage verification, tampering with the genetics in breeds with a closed registry was more common. Hereford and angus for sure in the 80's. There was a Polled Hereford bull KLC RB3 PERFECTION that had the frame and growth of a simmental. When the investigation started, the dam of the bull had suddenly died and no DNA was available, Lot's of money made for a few and lots of money lost for many. Ended in shame and disgrace and lawsuits.

 

[Lucky_P]

IIRC, that Perfection Hereford bull's dam had Red Holstein in her background, not Simmental.
I was in active vet practice back then (late 1980s), and had Polled Hereford clients who got burned badly on that deal.

 

[WFfarm]

@simme Is the Fleckvieh breed a closed registry? It seams the current Simmental breed is the labradoodle of the beef world, lol. Not putting it down, we raise mostly Simmentals and Angus. But we do have a couple belted cows from breeding up, and I could see traits like line back or brindeling being propagated to a Purebred Simmental that isn't a typical color pattern.

 

[simme]

@simme Is the Fleckvieh breed a closed registry? It seams the current Simmental breed is the labradoodle of the beef world, lol. Not putting it down, we raise mostly Simmentals and Angus. But we do have a couple belted cows from breeding up, and I could see traits like line back or brindeling being propagated to a Purebred Simmental that isn't a typical color pattern.

I will respond with what I believe is correct. Anyone with additional or more correct information is encouraged to reply. There is no separate Fleckvieh registry in the US. The US Simmental registry includes the following designations (from the ASA website):

" Registration Types
How an animal is registered depends on its breed composition. Breed composite is determined by the parents of the animal.
Purebred (Simmental) Any animal whose parents are registered as purebred and any animal with 1 parent registered as purebred and the other parent registered as 3/4 Simmental.
SimAngus Any animal whose parents are both registered and is at least 1/8 Simmental and 1/4 Angus and no more than 1/4 other breed
SimAngus HT Any animal whose parents are both registered and is at least 1/8 Simmental and 1/4 Angus, no more than 1/4 other breed and have at least 1/8 Brahman
Simgenetics Any animal whose sire is a registered and is at least 1/8 Simmental and is not a Purebred, SimAngus or Fullblood
Simbrah (Simmental-Brahman composite) Any animal whose sire is registered and is at least 1/8 Simmental and 1/8 Brahman and no more than 3/8 other breed. A Simbrah animals also qualify as Simgenetics or SimAngus. Breeders must specify if the animal is to be registered as Simbrah. Note: To qualify for the Simbrah Registry an animal must have a combination of Simmental and Brahman blood of five-eighths (5/8) or greater.
Purebred Simbrah (Simmental-Brahman composite) Any animals whose parents are registered and is 5/8 Simmental and 3/8 Brahman.
Full Blood Any purebred Simmental animal whose parents are both designated as Fullblood
Foundation Any animal that is registered with another recognized breed association and has been requested to be entered into ASA's registry (see foundation registration for further information) or an animal qualifed by its registered parents."

The Fleckvieh cattle fall under the Fullblood category. Fullblood is the designation for those cattle that are direct descendants of those Simmental cattle/genetics originally imported into the US. So, no outside genetics added. In that sense, you could say that the Fullblood portion of the registry is "closed". The imported cattle came from Switzerland, Germany, Austria and France from 5 different breed registries. Fleckvieh from the German and Austrian cattle registry. Simmental from the Swiss registry. The "simmental" from France were from 3 different registries - Abondance, Montbeliard and Pie Rouge. So, you could say that the fullblood simmental were at least 5 different "breeds". (There was also an Italian registry, I believe) They were selected for import from Europe due to their very similar breed characteristics - allowing them all to be called "simmental" in the US and Canada. The first "simmental" bull imported to North America was Parisien in 1967. Imported into Canada from France. So, he would have been from one of the 3 French registries (not technically a Simmental?). In fairness, I believe all were descendants originally of the Swiss cattle, but were developed over many years in these other countries and registered as different breeds in those countries. History seems to show that the original Swiss simmental cattle were a cross of a large German breed and a smaller Swiss breed in the middle ages. In reality, all current breeds of cattle are crossbred from many many hundreds of years ago. Angus, Hereford and Simmental were not from the original creation or did not each crawl out of the swampy mud depending on your beliefs.

So, are the US simmental the "labradoodles" of the breeds? Maybe. People love their labradoodles. The simmentals in Europe were bred for milk, meat and draft animals. In the US, they were needed for meat. We already had dairy cows for milk and tractors for pulling a plow or logs. Those original simmental cows milked like a dairy cow. We don't need that. With an open registry, there is more opportunity for faster genetic progress.

I think all the above is correct, but welcome comments or correction.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ooops - we were posting at the same time
Simmental books are open to use any breed for upgrading - but, many (most) breeds require DNA testing because of genetic defects known in their breed. Angus is top on the list, then Chi, Shorthorn, MaineAnjou, etc. It doesn't stop you from upgrading, your offspring just needs to be DNA tested for defects. You are still allowed to register them if they are positive for a defect (I totally disagree with this), but the defect is listed on the papers and follows thru with all offspring needing to be tested also.

Fleckvieh cattle is Simmental - registered with the ASA (Simmental). If they are "full" Fleckvieh, they are known as FULLBLOOD Simmentals. They must have at least 5 generations of FB ancestry. Turns out people were importing semen/cattle from Europe that were "called" FB, but were actually % cattle. We use Fleckvieh sires or % Fleckvieh's in Simmental breeding programs. Fleck's are dirty fronted but used to be a lot heavier muscled. Many used Flecks to breed to Angus to clean up their shoulders and front ends. "Block" front ends tend to be hard calving.

I believe Angus & Hereford are the only breeds that do not allow upgrading (in the beef breeds). Not sure if that is right, someone else may know another.
Back in the 80's, a National Angus Rep was at the NY State Fair, and he refused to let any animals sired by a certain bull show, because DNA had proven the sire to be "unpure".

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@simme - PERFECT. You are very good at explaining!!

 

[WFfarm]

@simme Thanks for the explanation, it was very informative. We have a commercial herd, but have been buying registered Simmental bulls for the last few years and keeping our own replacement heifers. So we have some that would qualify as purebreds, but we don't really keep up the papers because we are just selling feeder calves. I've heard people call Fleckvieh the "original" Simmental, but purebred Simmental makes more sense. We have a young bull now who's father came from a well know fullblood Simmental breeder in the are, and he doesn't have any black in his herd. I guess purebred Simmental could have about any color pattern.

 

[WFfarm]

@Jeanne - Simme Valley Thanks for the discussion as well.