Really need some help here - Vicky???

[milkmaid]

OK. Brought home this new heifer calf the Friday before last (Sept 2nd). She was approx 3-4 weeks old. Couldn't use her right rear leg, stifle joint swollen. I wondered if it was dislocated or broken - took her to my vet Monday evening (Labor Day) as I felt she needed to be looked at ASAP. He felt the joint, decided it looked like an infection, stuck a needle in and drained out a LOT of nasty pus. Injected the joint with sulfa-something or other, can't recall exactly what sulfa drug it was. Told me to put her on SMZ's, double strength, at 3 tablets 2x/day. Said to bring her in if it wasn't better by Wednesday.

It wasn't.

Brought her in, they gave her Ace, put her out, flushed the joint area with saline solution, injected the joint with more antibiotics, told me to keep her on SMZs.

I also asked about her umbilical area...wasn't sure if she had a hernia or an infection. He said infection, SMZs should take care of it. Said the whole joint infection probably started at the navel area (what have I heard this called? navel ill?).

OK, so I've been doing exactly what I'm told. She's doing well in terms of appetite and general attitude. Races around on three legs so well you almost can't tell she isn't using one.

Now, I looked her over really well tonight. Stifle joint is no better. The biggest thing that concerns me is the navel, though. It's gone from minor to swollen as big across as my hand, and 2-3 inches down. I hadn't noticed it before tonight and was shocked to say the least. That doesn't even really describe my reaction - more like horrified.

She IS on antibiotics - the infection should be going away, or at the least decreasing, but it's getting worse. What have I got going on here? or more appropriately, WHAT is going on with HER?

I can't get in touch with my vet - normal, unfortunately, so I'm coming here for help. Any and all advice is appreciated!

 

[jersey lilly]

If umbilical cord is indeed infected. You should be able to lance it at the bottom and drain out the puss. There may just be more infection in her system than the antibiotics can knock out.

 

[Vicky the vet]

Ok, so I disagree with your vet. SMZ doesn't generally take care of navel infections, and unless he cultured that joint and has a sensitivity on it, when the joint hadn't improved, it may have not been the best drug to keep her on. Point of fact, SMZ for more than a few days will cause kidney damage, especially in dehydrated animals. Doubling the dosage likely confirmed that this will happen, depending on the dose. I understand about off label drugs probably as well as anyone, but it wouldn't have been my choice. In fact here in Canada, I can't even send something which was on SMZ to the renderer.

Ok, back to the navel. Soak it with warm water and epsom salts. If you happen to have a hernia and blithely lance it, you've just killed the calf. Soaking it will open it up to drain better then you can manually open it up a bit more. I use souped up penicillins or cephalosporing for it in preference to SMZ, but that's due to culturing them and knowing what they're sensitive to. Baytril could also be more effective but I prefer not to use in a fast growing calf who already had joint damage...it's spectrum of activity would cover most/all bugs there and it penetrates. Nuflor would also work. Gentamycin into the joint can work but not into the navel. Again, gent toasts kidneys.

I know it sounds Mickey Mouse to soak the navel, but do it twice a day for about 10 min a time--you should see an amazing difference.

Good Luck
V

 

[milkmaid]

Thanks Vicky. To be honest, that's what I was wondering. I suspected the SMZs weren't helping - like I said, at the very least the infection should have stayed the same, not gotten worse.

I've been giving her the two bottles of milk a day + whatever water she'll drink because I remember she needs to stay hydrated when she's on sulfa drugs.

The time that I took her in (Wednesday) she did have gentamycin injected up into the joint. Probably with the SMZs a bad combination for her kidneys, right? how do I know if it's seriously damaged her kidneys? I'd feel kinda bad indirectly killing a calf I've been trying to help!

I can get Nuflor - what dosage should I use?

Soaking the navel...um, Vicky? I've soaked hooves before and have no problem soaking something, but HOW on earth do you soak a navel? Sorry if that sounds really stupid. :lol: I just can't quite picture this. Should I just lay her down and run warm water over it?

Thanks so much!

 

[Vicky the vet]

Nuflor is given at a dose of 3cc/100lbs IM repeat in 2 days OR 6cc/100lbs SQ given once. I prefer IM for a very sick animal

How to soak a navel? If it is swollen, it is below the belly line. Use a cup and soak that way, with the calf standing.

Clear as mud...?

V

 

[milkmaid]

How to soak a navel? If it is swollen, it is below the belly line. Use a cup and soak that way, with the calf standing.

:lol: Oh boy, this could be interesting. I can picture it now. :lol:

Now...if I'm soaking this navel and trying to get it to drain and open up, that does leave it open to more infection, doesn't it? After all, the whole navel area IS touching the ground when she lays down. Anything special I need to do to it after I'm done soaking it? put an antibacterial something-or-other on it? or do I just leave it alone?

Thanks again-

 

[jt]

milkmaid,

i had a calf with a swollen navel some months back... cant remember exactly, but i did ask about it on these boards..

vicky advised me on him and it worked... but mine was not nearly as bad off as yours sounds like he is...

i gave him a heavy dose of penicillin daily for a week and about every other day afterwards for another week. also i soaked him for a few days until the puss was gone from the naval.

he got over it and did just fine.

jt

 

[memanpa]

can't go wrong listening to vicky
vicky may i pm you

 

[Medic24]

Looky here MM. Vicky gave some very good advice........if you cant find or get nuflor .....JT is right,,,,I have used penicillen a number of times for navel ill, and it works pretty good...nuflor being my first pick tho.

I would definately cover any open spots that calf may get while draining that pus........you can tape on a 4x4 or something like it. but dont make it water proof, as you still want the pus to be able to drain out.

I would not try to cut or puncture anywhere around the umbilical unless you are both very carefull and you have some idea of what is what there, it is quite common to find a intestinal hernia there as well.

I know I am mostly repeating what has been typed before, but these are important points to consider.

And as always good luck! :cboy:

 

[memanpa]

the reason i want ot im vicky is i have a granddaughter getting ready to apply to vet school and i would like her opinions of the ones she is considering!!!!

 

[msscamp]

How to soak a navel? If it is swollen, it is below the belly line. Use a cup and soak that way, with the calf standing.

:lol: Oh boy, this could be interesting. I can picture it now. :lol:

Now...if I'm soaking this navel and trying to get it to drain and open up, that does leave it open to more infection, doesn't it? After all, the whole navel area IS touching the ground when she lays down. Anything special I need to do to it after I'm done soaking it? put an antibacterial something-or-other on it? or do I just leave it alone?

Thanks again-

You'll be fine. I have complete faith in not only you, but your abilities as well! I don't know if that means much, but there it is!

 

[Beefy]

i would think cleaning it with a betadine solution would be a good idea? i wouldnt want anything on the navel that is going to catch dirt or keep it from draining...

 

[milkmaid]

You'll be fine. I have complete faith in not only you, but your abilities as well! I don't know if that means much, but there it is!

Well thanks. =) Glad to see someone has faith in my abilities - when something like this shows up I don't have much faith in myself. If it's something I've dealt with before I usually have a good idea of what course of treatment to use, but I haven't seen this before.

Got to learn from experience, I guess. Each calf teaches me a little more.

Vicky, if you're around - what would you think of using dex to try and bring the swelling down in the joint?

 

[Medic24]

Well getting off the subject matter a bit, but Menanpa....I know a couple of vet schools that rank up there..............New Bolton center in Unionvile Pa... great school, esp. equestrian and dairy.............ETSU...........Univ. of Penna.........NC state............to name a few.

 

[Vicky the vet]

Dex for swelling can be helpful but can also worsen things. Hyaluronic acid may be more helpful. Also DMSO will work but isn't licenced for use in cattle...

About the vet schools. I'm Canadian. I went to school at the Ontario Veterinary College. I have friends who went to school in the states, but I really don't know much about them. So...don't know how much help I could be...

 

[msscamp]

You'll be fine. I have complete faith in not only you, but your abilities as well! I don't know if that means much, but there it is!

Well thanks. =) Glad to see someone has faith in my abilities - when something like this shows up I don't have much faith in myself. If it's something I've dealt with before I usually have a good idea of what course of treatment to use, but I haven't seen this before.

Got to learn from experience, I guess. Each calf teaches me a little more.

Vicky, if you're around - what would you think of using dex to try and bring the swelling down in the joint?

You're welcome. You've got grit, determination, tenacity, ingenuity, and you refuse to give up as long as the calf wants to live - you will be fine!

 

[milkmaid]

I soaked her navel this morning, and you know? it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.

Went out this evening to feed her, gave her the bottle, ran my hand briefly over her underside - check the navel - then the back leg - check the swelling. Back leg feels like the swelling's coming to a head. I wonder if it's going to burst and drain in a day or so.

I turned around to leave and heard this sound like she was peeing. Glanced back and she wasn't. Curiosity got the better of me and when I stepped back I realized the navel had opened up (maybe from when I touched it?) and that infection was draining. Pus just pouring out. Wow that was a foul odor!

Glad to see it's draining though.

I'll keep ya posted.

 

[MoGal]

best of luck to you. I've never had this happen to a calf yet, but did have it happen to a colt. Navel infection and when it opened up in the hip area of the colt, it was like cottage cheese squirting out... (sorry but it is as nasty a pic as you can imagine)... we mixed powdered sulfa with penicillin and put it in the leg area... the area was as big as a fist... took several weeks of doctoring daily but the colt did recover.

 

[msscamp]

I soaked her navel this morning, and you know? it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.

I didn't think you would have any problems with it. You're too determined and resourceful.

Went out this evening to feed her, gave her the bottle, ran my hand briefly over her underside - check the navel - then the back leg - check the swelling. Back leg feels like the swelling's coming to a head. I wonder if it's going to burst and drain in a day or so.

I turned around to leave and heard this sound like she was peeing. Glanced back and she wasn't. Curiosity got the better of me and when I stepped back I realized the navel had opened up (maybe from when I touched it?) and that infection was draining. Pus just pouring out. Wow that was a foul odor!

Could very well be. Epsom Salts drawing ability is completely amazing. I can imagine the smell. Thanks for the memory!

Glad to see it's draining though.

Me, too.

I'll keep ya posted.

 

[Rod]

I had the same experience with one of my calves and found out that the infection had caused the joints to start swelling.