Range cow behaviour question

[Jake]

Anyway, to my question, is this considered normal protectiveness for ranch (range) cows? Do real ranchers actually expect this #%^&@ ?
No!

I'm getting rid of her one way or another. If a ranch can handle her then I would sell her as beef cow. If they wouldn't tolerate this then she would go as just beef.

Don't you dare sell your problem cow to some unsuspecting buyer! You know she's a rip when she calves (chances are it will only get worse, too), tell them at the salebarn or tell any prospective buyers via private treaty!

The only reason she isn't already beefed is that she is a registered Hereford, whose sire is a national show champion.

And that makes a difference because? A nasty-dispositioned cow is just that, regardless of whether she is registered or not.

Thanks.

now now msscamp. that's what the salebarns are for is ridding of problem cows. It's the chance people take of buying cows from the sale barn. So sending her down the road to the sale even as a pair wouldn't be off base at all.

 

[bigbull338]

well this may get long lolol.had a cow calve an let the calf suck once or twice then walk away not taking the calf.so had to put calf in the corral an bottle him.got up 5 holstein bulls to send to the sale.i know i know holsteins.every now an then we raise some holsteins.well got the calfs momma in pen.she went bonkers.chasing everyonme around her.so we loaded the bulls yesterday.an forgot an left the chute open that was a big no no.well she seen it an made her espape.well she ran down to the road where theres a good bonwire fence an jumped right through the fence.ran down the road into an open gate an went back to her pasture.an she was a polled hereford cow so breed dont matter.anything can make them go crazy.

 

[bayhorse]

Jersey Lilly-

Actually I'm not new to cattle, but we have always had dairy cows and crossbred beef cows raised in pastures where they see people frequently and none have done this stuff, whether they would chase predators I don't know. Thanks for giving a ranch point of view. If all this one did was blow and investigate it wouldn't be a problem, but she actually charged and knocked my brother down when we were still ten feet away from her and the calf.

I'm getting rid of her because she doesn't fit here, just trying to decide how. You make me think maybe someone would value her as a brood cow, I just don't know how to find them.

Do you work your cattle on horseback? I have a broke horse but she is pretty graceless and I think the cow would take her on.


To anyone who wants an update: The calf is still off of the cow but he has actually gotten much sicker. No idea what he has because scours and/ or breathing hard are not among his symtoms. He had a fever, now it is normal but he is uncoordinated when walking. He always chews constantly as though chewing a cud but doesn't seem to eat enough solids to do so. He's had electrolytes, Vetsulid, Naxcell, selenium, B vitamins... The only thing we haven't tried is Corid for coccidiosis, but he doesn't have the symtoms for it. Since he doesn't have scours he is still on milk (tube-fed). Can't tell whether he is better or worse tonight.

 

[jersey lilly]

We work them with horses. But can also pen them with a sack of cubes if need be. Most of the time it's with horses and dogs tho.

In your original post, you only stated that she'd ran into panels and charged from the pasture. I had no idea she'd actually ran somoene down. I'd send her to the sale barn.

But I still maintain that I'd rather have a cow with a lil protectiveness in her, than one with none. When they are turned out and you don't see them every day, they need to have that instinct to protect themselves along with thier calves.

 

[milkmaid]

To anyone who wants an update: The calf is still off of the cow but he has actually gotten much sicker. No idea what he has because scours and/ or breathing hard are not among his symtoms. He had a fever, now it is normal but he is uncoordinated when walking. He always chews constantly as though chewing a cud but doesn't seem to eat enough solids to do so. He's had electrolytes, Vetsulid, Naxcell, selenium, B vitamins... The only thing we haven't tried is Corid for coccidiosis, but he doesn't have the symtoms for it. Since he doesn't have scours he is still on milk (tube-fed). Can't tell whether he is better or worse tonight.

If it were me, where the cow already has purchased a one-way ticket out (LOL), I'd separate cow and calf, take the calf up to the house and doctor him up there. Cow will be fine and will dry herself off. Calf will do better with more attention and a lot of TLC.

Calf now...if I remember the original post correctly, he's younger than 3 weeks and/or was younger than 3 weeks when symptoms showed up. That rules out coccidiosis.

Chewing is a good sign of pain. Have some banamine on hand? make him more comfortable - dose at 2cc/100lbs.

My vet commented to me once that some pathogens cause a lot of fluid loss ("severe" scours) and very little damage to the gut - hence the calf acts GOOD. I've had several calves get sick with scours where they'd guzzle a bottle down but have everything coming out the back end faster than it went in - caught up with them in a few days.

Now, the opposite is also true. Calf that shows little to no sign of actual scours, but the pathogen is wreaking havoc on his insides and he's feeling about as bad as they get. That might be what you are dealing with.

I'd keep giving electrolytes, VitB, A and D; depending on what dose of selenium you gave before and how long it's been I might repeat it, lower dosage of course. They lose a lot of electrolytes, vitamins, minerals, etc when sick or scouring. Keep the calf hydrated, that's one of the biggest things right now.

Sometimes you don't really know exactly what's wrong with an animal, but you just guess and hope for the best. As it's a young calf and there's no sign of pnemonia, I'd be inclined to look to scours and treat accordingly. In this case, both systemically (IM/SC) and orally. If you have Nuflor on hand I'd start with that IM. If you have sulfas, say SMZs (SMZ/TMP 800/160 double strength, Rx drug) I'd give those orally at 2 first time, 1/100lbs/day after that. Really, that combination should wipe out anything that calf has. LOL.

Get the calf feeling better and either raise it as a bottle calf or run it through as an "orphan" - around here they're bringing $200-300/hd. Good luck; keep us posted.

 

[bayhorse]

Milkmaid -

Thanks for the suggestions. He is on Sulfa-Trimeth,(along with Vetsulid) I haven't heard of Nuflor though? Since it is Sunday I can't go look for it.

We gave him a Banamine shot a couple days ago, then stopped because he had blood in his manure, which is gone now. We've also done Vitamin B and A & D, and K.

I wonder if it is BVD, which doesn't respond to any drugs I know of.

 

[milkmaid]

Milkmaid -

Thanks for the suggestions. He is on Sulfa-Trimeth,(along with Vetsulid) I haven't heard of Nuflor though? Since it is Sunday I can't go look for it.

Sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim, right? That'd be the SMZ/TMPs I've used before with good success. Are you using the double strength - 800mg sulfa and 160mg trimeth? or the 400/80? If you're using the double strength 800/160 then 1 tablet per ~100lbs is sufficient.

Nuflor... http://www.nuflor.com/ It's a pretty common antibiotic. Another Rx drug so you'll have to get it from your vet.

I can't find anything doing a search for Vetsulid and I haven't ever heard of that one before. What is it?

Might not be a bad idea to give him something systemically (IM) today and then follow it with the Nuflor tomorrow when you can get it. Have LA200 or some generic version of that on hand? The oxytet and sulfa combination has worked pretty well for me.

We gave him a Banamine shot a couple days ago, then stopped because he had blood in his manure, which is gone now. We've also done Vitamin B and A & D, and K.

I wonder if it is BVD, which doesn't respond to any drugs I know of.

BVD is viral so no it won't respond to antibiotics. (Maybe he's a PI calf - what sort of vaccination program was that cow on?) I'd still guess that it's something common like scours, but I could be wrong. I believe there would be lesions inside the calf's mouth if it were BVD...

I'd be hesitant to link the Banamine shot to traces of blood in his manure. Too many other variables there to connect the two like that. If it were me I'd go back to using the Banamine as it will help with the pain and get him feeling better, at least for a while.

 

[bayhorse]

Sorry, I was spelling it wrong it is "Vetisulid", it is another sulfa (injectable)that works against different things than Sulfa-trimeth, sometimes it is hard to find, it is often on back order at many places. It has worked well in the past for calves with unidentifiable sickness.

Wondered if he wasn't on too many so took him off the sulfas, still on one non-sulfa antibiotic though, so he is still getting a systemic antibiotic. He is no worse for being taken off of the sulfas so they don't appear to have been helping, and he may have been having a reaction to them I guess. I'll see about the Nuflor today.

The teeth grinding didn't start until after we took him off of the cow, at that time he just had a fever and was too tired to chase her down for milk, even in the corral. It almost looks like a neurologic symtom rather than pain, when I darkened the shed and make no noise it lessens or stops. I read somewhere that BVD can take on CNS form. There is also any number of things that he could have had a bad reaction to, we have had cows be allergic to all kinds of medications.

The darned cow has had 5-way shots, but not BVD, I forget why, but the merck manual said breeding age cows shouldn't have mod-live BVD vaccine, and supposedly the killed doesn't work well.

 

[bayhorse]

Milkmaid -

Just in case you were wondering;

The calf died yesterday, but we were going to shoot him anyway, it was probably from lung failure or something. We realized that he was becoming progressively more paralyzed, that was what started with the wobbliness, then went on from there. It was definitely not an energy lack, because even his blood sugar was always normal or high. We did have him back on banamine, but the teeth grinding continued until total paralysis set in.

The only thing we can figure out, and the vet agreed, is that most or all of the symtoms seemed neurological. So, some kind of meningitis/encephalitis is suspect. But there are so many things that cause that. We realized with a shock that rabies is one of them. we had to submit him for testing, because my mom cut her hand while tube feeding one day, so could have been exposed. The possibility is remote, but with the symtoms and time line the vet couldn't rule it out and thought we should go ahead. We had a very oddly behaving skunk appear last year, and there are always many others around here, and bats have been here in the past. Sure hope it isn't though.

It would be unusual, but weird things happen all the time around here, I probably should be a vet student instead of at business school, just to deal with all the stuff that crops up.

Anyway, wish it was better news but wanted to let you know what happened, since you tried to help. Thanks for trying.

 

[milkmaid]

Sorry to hear about the calf.

I looked up Vetisulid and this time I found it. That's a new one for me but by the label looks very intriuging.

If you decide to have the calf posted let us know what the results are; I'm sure the rest of us could learn something from this.

About the vaccines - killed vaccines don't work as well as MLV but they work a whole lot better than no vaccine. :lol: MLV can be given to any open (not bred) cow, calf, steer, etc. I use a MLV BVD/5-way w/lepto on all calves and open cows. The only ones that get the killed vaccine are those cows that were bred when I acquired them.

 

[Beefy]

it sure sounds like the calf might have had listeriosis to me!


10 feet away is all up in a cow's business. with a sick calf, the cows flight zone becomes a lot smaller than her fight zone too.

 

[bayhorse]

The rabies test was negative, we didn't have any other post-mortem exam, we probably should have, but the vet clinic acted like they barely had time to even remove the head for us.

Now the cow is pretty lame, sort of mincing steps, I don't know what is going on, somehow have to round her up to look at her feet closer, she is still pretty "on the fight" as far as people.

We thought maybe fescue poisoning, that could have affected the calf too, but looking at the mixed pasture I can't even find stuff that looks like fescue, just bluegrass, clover, and quackgrass. Maybe I don't know how to identify it. It seems like whatever it is should be something that fits the calf's symtoms, and the cow's, they were the only ones in this certain pasture for any length of time, and she is the only one that is lame now.

I'll have to find more about listeria.

Thanks.

 

[msscamp]

Anyway, to my question, is this considered normal protectiveness for ranch (range) cows? Do real ranchers actually expect this #%^&@ ?
No!

I'm getting rid of her one way or another. If a ranch can handle her then I would sell her as beef cow. If they wouldn't tolerate this then she would go as just beef.

Don't you dare sell your problem cow to some unsuspecting buyer! You know she's a rip when she calves (chances are it will only get worse, too), tell them at the salebarn or tell any prospective buyers via private treaty!

The only reason she isn't already beefed is that she is a registered Hereford, whose sire is a national show champion.

And that makes a difference because? A nasty-dispositioned cow is just that, regardless of whether she is registered or not.

Thanks.

now now msscamp. that's what the salebarns are for is ridding of problem cows. It's the chance people take of buying cows from the sale barn. So sending her down the road to the sale even as a pair wouldn't be off base at all.

Apparently we have a few more scruples than the average cattleman/woman. Any cow of ours that turns out to be like the one in this thread is never unloaded at the salebarn without the proper warnings and doing everything we can to ensure she goes for killer only.

I apologize for the delay in responding, up until tonight I've just been clicking on the last page and missed your post. Ran across your post while trying re-reading to clarify a few things.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

The ironic part of this thread is that the cow is a Hereford, the classic model of docility.

But when they go sour they REALLY get bad.