Rambling

[Wewild]

I know that many of the larger, more infamous battles have been preserved, but what of the others?? :D

We were getting up calves one day and as I walked down a cow trail, I tripped on what I thought was a rock.

Turned out to be a cannonball.

It would have been in the location of where Sherman decided to go west rather than entering the Allatoona Pass area.

The old house was built in 1865. Always figured that the original house was burned down in 64 ... and thus the cannonball.

 

[Alice]

I know that many of the larger, more infamous battles have been preserved, but what of the others?? :D

We were getting up calves one day and as I walked down a cow trail, I tripped on what I thought was a rock.

Turned out to be a cannonball.

It would have been in the location of where Sherman decided to go west rather than entering the Allatoona Pass area.

The old house was built in 1865. Always figured that the original house was burned down in 64 ... and thus the cannonball.

That is way toooo cool!

Alice

 

[Horticattleman]

Boy it sure does upset me to see the flag of our proud ancestors degraded. Whats more is that most of the people who disagree with it don't even know what it really stands for. For me it stands for my great great grand family who just dreamed of independence from an oppresive nation. Funny how the nation opposing us had just done the same thing only 85 years before. Anywho, it makes me mad to see the hate groupe misrepresenting our flag. And by the way all of my above statements have NOTHING to do with hate, just pride.

 

[Alice]

And by the way all of my above statements have NOTHING to do with hate, just pride.

Never doubted it for a minute. :)

My mother was born and raised in Ohio...she graduated from Union College in KY...went into the Red Cross during WWII and travelled the world...she went into Berlin with the allies...then accepted a teaching job in Snyder, TX. That's where she met my Daddy...who was born and raised in Snyder.

There were two words in my household that would get our mouths washed out with soap...the N word (still can't say it to this day), and Yankee.

My mother's roots were in the north, yet she was the epitomy of Southern grace. She never looked at anyone other than the person he/she was...and my Daddy loved her so much. And, my Daddy, being the wonderful west Texas gentleman that he was, adopted her way of thinking. He once told me that in his heart, he was a bigot...but in his mind he was not...and he had my mother to thank for that.

I got the best of both worlds being born to my parents...and oh, how I miss them every day.

Alice

 

[ranchwife]

And by the way all of my above statements have NOTHING to do with hate, just pride.

Never doubted it for a minute. :)

My mother was born and raised in Ohio...she graduated from Union College in KY...went into the Red Cross during WWII and travelled the world...she went into Berlin with the allies...then accepted a teaching job in Snyder, TX. That's where she met my Daddy...who was born and raised in Snyder.

There were two words in my household that would get our mouths washed out with soap...the N word (still can't say it to this day), and Yankee.

My mother's roots were in the north, yet she was the epitomy of Southern grace. She never looked at anyone other than the person he/she was...and my Daddy loved her so much. And, my Daddy, being the wonderful west Texas gentleman that he was, adopted her way of thinking. He once told me that in his heart, he was a bigot...but in his mind he was not...and he had my mother to thank for that.

I got the best of both worlds being born to my parents...and oh, how I miss them every day.

Alice

Your folks sound like MY kind of people!!! Sounds like you were definitely raised right, Alice!!! I can only imagine how you miss them, but I bet you have some stories to tell!! :D :D

 

[Alice]

What a nice thing to say...it brought tears to my eyes. Thank you.

Yes, I could tell stories! Oh my, yes.

BTW, when mother came back from the war, she was offered a job in Deer Lodge. She accepted the one in Snyder, but suggested her sister, my Aunt Libby, for the job in Deer Lodge. Libby taught there many years, then followed her principal to Bozeman. When she retired from Bozeman, she moved to TX. While she was still able, and that was for a very long time, she would go back to Montana every summer. When I was a child, we visited her in Montana...and it was beautiful.

Alice

 

[msscamp]

Have you ever wondered what it would have been like had the South won their independence. The idea of states rights comes to mind rather than having a big powerful central government controlling the states with its financial incentives and grants. Maybe we wouldn't go to war as often. Just a thought.

Yes I have, actually. States still wouldn't have any rights there would just be 2 central governments controlling 2 seperate 'countries'. One would need a passport to visit friends and relatives in the other 'country', and day to day commerce would be a nightmare because of the import/export tariffs, taxes, quotas, etc. And we would probably go to war more often, because there would be two seperate ideologies to influence the mix and determine what should be done about it - the scariest thing to me is that, if the South had won their independance, there is a very real possibility that we would be going to war against each other - again. I believe that Lincoln was right - a country divided against itself cannot stand.

I'm not advocating this mind you, but if the South had won, it wouldnt be a country divided agains itself any longer. It would be two seperate countries. Just like the USA and England now are.

Yes, but there are how many thousands of miles separating the USA from England? Things may very well have been different if we had been next door neighbors. As I recall from my history classes, England was none to happy about our establishing our independance from them - do you think it would have been different if the South had established her independance from the North?

IMO I dont think there is anyway to say how those two seperate counties would be governed. Could be better, could be worse, could be totally dissfunctional. I do think both sides are better off together.

Are you saying that, although the South had already set up a 'democratic' government it would have changed that? Additionally, at the time of the Civil War the South had little to no industry besides cotton, tobacco, and slaves - cotton and tobacco are seasonal crops, so I don't quite see how they were going to maintain their economy during the winter months without a more solid base of manufacturing, iron works, etc? Plus there is the example set when the USSR disbanded (for lack of a better word). Things weren't great when it was the USSR, but they have gone downhill for most of the countries since the split (not a good choice of words, but the best I can do right now. Sorry.).

Take Duns original question regarding all that was loss. Now subtract half of what remained. The loss would be considerably greater.

3MR, it's too late for my brain to even be able to absorb this statement, much less process the meaning behind it. :oops: Is tomorrow ok with you? :lol: :lol: On a more personal note, I'm sure glad you joined the boards - I really like this kind of conversation! :D

Im not dissagreeing with anything you said. All your points are valid theories. In reference to your post I was just saying it wouldnt be a country divided, as once it was over it would have been two coutnries. The rest was just a personal commentary on the entire disscusion.

I didn't think you were disagreeing, just discussing. I simply threw a few more things into the mix to discuss - that's all. :) I must admit that I'm going to have to do a little research, though. You have brought up some things I have no knowledge about. Thank you! :)

On a more personal note, I'm sure glad you joined the boards - I really like this kind of conversation! :D

:lol: :lol: Likewise Im sure. :lol:

:oops: :lol: :lol:

 

[Wewild]

He once told me that in his heart, he was a bigot...but in his mind he was not...and he had my mother to thank for that.

I got the best of both worlds being born to my parents...and oh, how I miss them every day.

Alice

That is way too cool and sorry for your loss.

 

[msscamp]

And by the way all of my above statements have NOTHING to do with hate, just pride.

My mother's roots were in the north, yet she was the epitomy of Southern grace. She never looked at anyone other than the person he/she was...and my Daddy loved her so much. And, my Daddy, being the wonderful west Texas gentleman that he was, adopted her way of thinking. He once told me that in his heart, he was a bigot...but in his mind he was not...and he had my mother to thank for that.

I got the best of both worlds being born to my parents...and oh, how I miss them every day.

Alice

What a wonderful testament to your parents, Alice! I'm very sorry for your loss. :(

 

[Alice]

Thank you, Wewild and Msscamp...that really means a great deal to me.

:heart: :heart:

Alice

 

[msscamp]

Thank you, Wewild and Msscamp...that really means a great deal to me.

:heart: :heart:

Alice

:heart: :)

 

[Jogeephus]

Boy it sure does upset me to see the flag of our proud ancestors degraded. Whats more is that most of the people who disagree with it don't even know what it really stands for. For me it stands for my great great grand family who just dreamed of independence from an oppresive nation. Funny how the nation opposing us had just done the same thing only 85 years before. Anywho, it makes me mad to see the hate groupe misrepresenting our flag. And by the way all of my above statements have NOTHING to do with hate, just pride.

I salute you. One thing is always cetain, the victors write the history books. I was waiting to see if anyone would touch truth. The South DID NOT want overthrow the government. Therefore it was not a civil war like our children are taught in schools. The war between the states, was a terrible thing. It did put brother against brother.

Lincoln said, "a house divided cannot stand." He may well have been talking about his own household. The US Senate brought treason charges against Mary, Lincoln's wife - Lincoln had to intervene or she would have been executed. Three of her brother's wore gray. One, Dr. Todd said that Lincoln was "one of the greatest scoundrels unhung".

With Lincoln winning his victory he gave this great nation many firsts: Income Tax, Witholding Tax, Tobacco Tax, Cigarette Tax, psycological warfare and the Draft.

In Lincoln's 1st inaugural address, he promised he would not interfere with slavery. Yet he is credited in the history books for ending slavery in his Emancipation Proclamation. Read it! It does not end slavery, it merely ends slavery in states (or portions of) not loyal to union. Trying to get a second front started in the South.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.

This is not what is taught. The South had been knocked out of the big land grab out west by politics. The legality of secession was an open question, and Southerners would frequently threaten that their states might ditch the fledgling nation. The legal argument, framed eloquently in the 1830 Senate debate between Daniel Webster and Robert Hayne, centered on the Constitution: Was it merely a treaty among the many states? Or was it the founding document of a singular country, a contract of the "people" cited in its opening clause? This legal argument, among other things, eventually begat the War Between the States, and since it ended, scholars have agreed that the Constitution grants no right of secession. Therefore, without the (UN)CIVIL WAR we would not have forged the country as it is today. Good and Bad.

Big Politics is what started this aweful war. Have we learned anything? I hope so. But when politics and greed join forces, it can lead to many deaths. Look at how we "liberated" Panama from Columbia. Or how we Liberated Panama from Manuel Noriega for the drug trafficking and money laundering. Heck, the man worked for us. He just decided to get another bid for some work on the Panama Canal which came in much lower than - Guess Who's bid.(he's likes quail hunting but is not a good shot)

I've earned the right to ask what if. I think it is important for us all to at least ask why. If we don't, we will be just as guilty as the Germans during the holocaust and our children will have to go off to fight a Political War for some bureaucrat who will sell them out in a second. If they are lucky enough to make it home, they will eventually have to deal with a wall full of faces. And that is hard, believe me.

As for our weakness as a small divided country. Look at Switzerland. I cannot recall anyone invading them nor they invading anyone else.

But what do I know, I'm just a dumb southerner that wants all our children to live in peace. Nuff said.

 

[msscamp]

The South DID NOT want overthrow the government. Therefore it was not a civil war like our children are taught in schools.

Ok, I'll bite - just exactly what did the South think the North would do when they fired on Fort Sumter - a northern held fort located in the south? Would that not clearly be a declaration of war on the part of the south against the north? Therefore, it WAS a civil war just like our children are taught in schools.

 

[Jogeephus]

The South DID NOT want overthrow the government. Therefore it was not a civil war like our children are taught in schools.

Ok, I'll bite - just exactly what did the South think the North would do when they fired on Fort Sumter - a northern held fort located in the south? Would that not clearly be a declaration of war on the part of the south against the north? Therefore, it WAS a civil war just like our children are taught in schools.

Interesting! Sounds like the North invaded. I mean if you put a blockade around a country in an attempt to hinder their trade or place sanctions - is this not an act of war? Would that country not have the right to defend itself?

South Carolina debated seccession for 8 years. Until it came to a vote. "We the People" voted and chose to secede. This was nothing new. The idea of state's rights was strong throughout our country. The New England States were the first to consider seccession during the Hartford Convention. They were against the governments anti-trade policies with England.

The north had industry and saught raw materials. The south had cotton and tobacco, the materials needed. The south was "going direct" more and more with Europe. The North's blockade of the Charleston port was an attempt to stop this trade and put "economic sanctions" on the South.

The federal government had already said it was OK when Texas seceded from Mexico. But when the shoe was on the other foot - well you know.

If the federal government put a blockade around your cattle operation - I bet they'd catch some grief too :lol:

In 1918, Woodrow Wilson gave his 14 Points speech. His fifth point was, "called for decolonisation and national self-determination (again its OK somewhere else but not here) for formerly colonized countries, and for the people of the world to give equal weight to the opinions of the colonized peoples as to those of the colonial powers. " In other words, the people should have the right to chose what type government they have.

A modern day example of what went on then can be found in Canada - with Quebec seeking their independence. They still discuss this matter and one day they may have their independence. But if the people vote to do this, what is wrong with it. Is that not what democracy is about? I believe our constitution gives us absolute rights not conditional.

Again, the South had no intentions of overthrowing the federal government - they voted and withdrew from the United States and formed and ratified their own constitution - which is not a Civil War.

 

[Alice]

Boy it sure does upset me to see the flag of our proud ancestors degraded. Whats more is that most of the people who disagree with it don't even know what it really stands for. For me it stands for my great great grand family who just dreamed of independence from an oppresive nation. Funny how the nation opposing us had just done the same thing only 85 years before. Anywho, it makes me mad to see the hate groupe misrepresenting our flag. And by the way all of my above statements have NOTHING to do with hate, just pride.

I salute you. One thing is always cetain, the victors write the history books. I was waiting to see if anyone would touch truth. The South DID NOT want overthrow the government. Therefore it was not a civil war like our children are taught in schools. The war between the states, was a terrible thing. It did put brother against brother.

Lincoln said, "a house divided cannot stand." He may well have been talking about his own household. The US Senate brought treason charges against Mary, Lincoln's wife - Lincoln had to intervene or she would have been executed. Three of her brother's wore gray. One, Dr. Todd said that Lincoln was "one of the greatest scoundrels unhung".

With Lincoln winning his victory he gave this great nation many firsts: Income Tax, Witholding Tax, Tobacco Tax, Cigarette Tax, psycological warfare and the Draft.

In Lincoln's 1st inaugural address, he promised he would not interfere with slavery. Yet he is credited in the history books for ending slavery in his Emancipation Proclamation. Read it! It does not end slavery, it merely ends slavery in states (or portions of) not loyal to union. Trying to get a second front started in the South.

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.

This is not what is taught. The South had been knocked out of the big land grab out west by politics. The legality of secession was an open question, and Southerners would frequently threaten that their states might ditch the fledgling nation. The legal argument, framed eloquently in the 1830 Senate debate between Daniel Webster and Robert Hayne, centered on the Constitution: Was it merely a treaty among the many states? Or was it the founding document of a singular country, a contract of the "people" cited in its opening clause? This legal argument, among other things, eventually begat the War Between the States, and since it ended, scholars have agreed that the Constitution grants no right of secession. Therefore, without the (UN)CIVIL WAR we would not have forged the country as it is today. Good and Bad.

Big Politics is what started this aweful war. Have we learned anything? I hope so. But when politics and greed join forces, it can lead to many deaths. Look at how we "liberated" Panama from Columbia. Or how we Liberated Panama from Manuel Noriega for the drug trafficking and money laundering. Heck, the man worked for us. He just decided to get another bid for some work on the Panama Canal which came in much lower than - Guess Who's bid.(he's likes quail hunting but is not a good shot)

I've earned the right to ask what if. I think it is important for us all to at least ask why. If we don't, we will be just as guilty as the Germans during the holocaust and our children will have to go off to fight a Political War for some bureaucrat who will sell them out in a second. If they are lucky enough to make it home, they will eventually have to deal with a wall full of faces. And that is hard, believe me.

As for our weakness as a small divided country. Look at Switzerland. I cannot recall anyone invading them nor they invading anyone else.

But what do I know, I'm just a dumb southerner that wants all our children to live in peace. Nuff said.

Where in the world did anyone ever get the idea that the south over threw the govt...or even attempted to over throw it. Not in any history book I ever read.

Jogeephus, you said that the history textbooks don't tell the truth about the war between the states. The history classes I took in high school of course taught about the issue of slavery along with the economic side of it...the north having the industry, the south having the raw materials, etc. I don't remember anything being slanted or sanitized.

Now, that business about Mary Todd Lincoln...

Lincoln said, "a house divided cannot stand." He may well have been talking about his own household. The US Senate brought treason charges against Mary, Lincoln's wife - Lincoln had to intervene or she would have been executed. Three of her brother's wore gray. One, Dr. Todd said that Lincoln was "one of the greatest scoundrels unhung".

That is sensationlist innuendo at best. Mary Todd Lincoln was fiercely pro Union. She had confederate relatives...she was not well liked in Washington, and those that did not care for her implied that she was passing secrets, medicine, etc. to the Confederate Army, which was pure hogwash. The woman was never charged with treason...Lincoln did not go to the Senate floor and plead for her life. Abe, no doubt, faced animosity from his wife's confedrate family, hence the quote by Mary's brother, Dr. Todd. I mean, don't you have a family member or in law that you are less than charitable towards?

What you've written about is simply a mish mash of hearsay and rhetoric...with a few skewed facts thrown in to make it appear plausible.

So suh, I must respectfully say :P

 

[Jogeephus]

I did not say she was ever charged with treason. Senate members met to consider charges of treason against her. Lincoln made a surprise appearance and read a written statement denying these charges. It was dropped.
It may very well had been inuendo against her, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened.

The Truth is that is was not a Civil War which is how it is commonly taught in schools.

I also heard the other day of a history teacher telling the class that we "never landed on the moon". She is definitely preparing our children well. :roll:

 

[Alice]

I did not say she was ever charged with treason. Senate members met to consider charges of treason against her. Lincoln made a surprise appearance and read a written statement denying these charges. It was dropped.
It may very well had been inuendo against her, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened.

The Truth is that is was not a Civil War which is how it is commonly taught in schools.

I also heard the other day of a history teacher telling the class that we "never landed on the moon". She is definitely preparing our children well. :roll:

Mister Jogeephus, once again I am quoting you:

He may well have been talking about his own household. The US Senate brought treason charges against Mary, Lincoln's wife - Lincoln had to intervene or she would have been executed.

You specifically stated that treason charges were brought, and decided to sensationalize it with her possible execution...and you made it sound as tho the execution would have been forthcoming forthwith had Lincoln not intervended. That is absolutely assinine. Who, in their right minds would actually EXECUTE a president's wife! Puhleeeeze!

Now you are saying, and I quote:

I did not say she was ever charged with treason. Senate members met to consider charges of treason against her. Lincoln made a surprise appearance and read a written statement denying these charges. It was dropped.
It may very well had been inuendo against her, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened

So which is it...did you say it or didn't you. It's right here, in black and white...how can you now say you never said it?

Moving right along, if senate members met to consider charges against Mary Todd Lincoln, and that is one, big old if that I don't have the time nor inclination to research, then it was probably no more than a handful of congressmen who had a beef with Abe...happens all the time today, so no doubt it happened down thru history. That ain't big news.

The fact of the matter is, you have plucked something of inconsequence out of supposed facts, which is more than likely nothing more than gossip that was spread during that time, and you are now trying to give it credence...to prove what?

Suh, you are a master in the art of world salad.

 

[Jogeephus]

I'll save you some time. Dun's thread began with some facts printed in a book written by David Fairfax, The Civil War: Stange and Fascinating Facts. And yes, had she been tried and convicted for treason she would have been executed - unless you actually believe our leaders are exempt from the laws that govern us. If you are going to dispute these facts and deny their validity then I guess you might as well dispute the figures detailing the number of deaths and casualties - they all came from the same book. Heck. Lets just say it never happened and go our merry way. Lets just keep on thinking that Al Gore invented the internet because we just - how did you put it - "don't have the time nor inclination to research."

I'm sorry if I have offended you. Didn't know this would resort to name calling and such. If you ever have the time or inclination, I think you might enjoy reading the book for yourself. There are many more out there as well. I think the War Between the States is a very interesting with many many books written on the subject. Some of the information you read will challenge your beliefs and make you think. This is why I make time to read.

 

[Alice]

I'll save you some time. Dun's thread began with some facts printed in a book written by David Fairfax, The Civil War: Stange and Fascinating Facts.

Yes...

And yes, had she been tried and convicted for treason she would have been executed - unless you actually believe our leaders are exempt from the laws that govern us.

Sir, there was never any reason for her to be tried and executed...charges were not ever brought against her...that is a moot point...

If you are going to dispute these facts and deny their validity then I guess you might as well dispute the figures detailing the number of deaths and casualties - they all came from the same book.

Death and casualty accounts are a matter of record...cold hard facts...death certificates, family bible information...now you've said she did have charges brought against her...now you say you never said that...just what is in this book. Does the info in the book equivocate, also?

Heck. Lets just say it never happened and go our merry way. Lets just keep on thinking that Al Gore invented the internet because we just - how did you put it - "don't have the time nor inclination to research."

That's insulting.

I'm sorry if I have offended you.

Up until now, you haven't...

Didn't know this would resort to name calling and such.

But now you have. Where, in any of this correspondence, have I called you a name? Point it out to me. You are not going to flip this around on me. I am not going to allow you to twist my words to make a non existent point. Again, point any out to me...I want to see it.

If you ever have the time or inclination, I think you might enjoy reading the book for yourself. There are many more out there as well. I think the War Between the States is a very interesting with many many books written on the subject. Some of the information you read will challenge your beliefs and make you think. This is why I make time to read.

Good for you...I'm glad you make time to read. I make time to read...and I make certain that if what I read has slanted or biased information, I read and research the opposite viewpoint...and then I make up my own mind based on facts in evidence...not inuendo, gossip, or skewed facts. Would I enjoy the book you suggested? I might have at one time...

 

[warpaint]

This heat must be affecting folks.

Two of my electricians(I won't give the company name for obvious reasons), just tied up on my job-site.
First guy is diggin a trench, other guy jumps outta the truck and proceeds to open can-o-whoop....
Haven't found out the reason behind it. Cops came and hauled instigator away.

This has no bearing on this thread, but thought I would give ya'll something else to think about.