Rambling

[3MR]

Have you ever wondered what it would have been like had the South won their independence. The idea of states rights comes to mind rather than having a big powerful central government controlling the states with its financial incentives and grants. Maybe we wouldn't go to war as often. Just a thought.

Yes I have, actually. States still wouldn't have any rights there would just be 2 central governments controlling 2 seperate 'countries'. One would need a passport to visit friends and relatives in the other 'country', and day to day commerce would be a nightmare because of the import/export tariffs, taxes, quotas, etc. And we would probably go to war more often, because there would be two seperate ideologies to influence the mix and determine what should be done about it - the scariest thing to me is that, if the South had won their independance, there is a very real possibility that we would be going to war against each other - again. I believe that Lincoln was right - a country divided against itself cannot stand.

I'm not advocating this mind you, but if the South had won, it wouldnt be a country divided agains itself any longer. It would be two seperate countries. Just like the USA and England now are.

IMO I dont think there is anyway to say how those two seperate counties would be governed. Could be better, could be worse, could be totally dissfunctional. I do think both sides are better off together.

Take Duns original question regarding all that was loss. Now subtract half of what remained. The loss would be considerably greater.

Besides, Yankee food sucks! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[msscamp]

Have you ever wondered what it would have been like had the South won their independence. The idea of states rights comes to mind rather than having a big powerful central government controlling the states with its financial incentives and grants. Maybe we wouldn't go to war as often. Just a thought.

Yes I have, actually. States still wouldn't have any rights there would just be 2 central governments controlling 2 seperate 'countries'. One would need a passport to visit friends and relatives in the other 'country', and day to day commerce would be a nightmare because of the import/export tariffs, taxes, quotas, etc. And we would probably go to war more often, because there would be two seperate ideologies to influence the mix and determine what should be done about it - the scariest thing to me is that, if the South had won their independance, there is a very real possibility that we would be going to war against each other - again. I believe that Lincoln was right - a country divided against itself cannot stand.

I'm not advocating this mind you, but if the South had won, it wouldnt be a country divided agains itself any longer. It would be two seperate countries. Just like the USA and England now are.

Yes, but there are how many thousands of miles separating the USA from England? Things may very well have been different if we had been next door neighbors. As I recall from my history classes, England was none to happy about our establishing our independance from them - do you think it would have been different if the South had established her independance from the North?

IMO I dont think there is anyway to say how those two seperate counties would be governed. Could be better, could be worse, could be totally dissfunctional. I do think both sides are better off together.

Are you saying that, although the South had already set up a 'democratic' government it would have changed that? Additionally, at the time of the Civil War the South had little to no industry besides cotton, tobacco, and slaves - cotton and tobacco are seasonal crops, so I don't quite see how they were going to maintain their economy during the winter months without a more solid base of manufacturing, iron works, etc? Plus there is the example set when the USSR disbanded (for lack of a better word). Things weren't great when it was the USSR, but they have gone downhill for most of the countries since the split (not a good choice of words, but the best I can do right now. Sorry.).

Take Duns original question regarding all that was loss. Now subtract half of what remained. The loss would be considerably greater.

3MR, it's too late for my brain to even be able to absorb this statement, much less process the meaning behind it. :oops: Is tomorrow ok with you? :lol: :lol: On a more personal note, I'm sure glad you joined the boards - I really like this kind of conversation! :D

 

[3MR]

Have you ever wondered what it would have been like had the South won their independence. The idea of states rights comes to mind rather than having a big powerful central government controlling the states with its financial incentives and grants. Maybe we wouldn't go to war as often. Just a thought.

Yes I have, actually. States still wouldn't have any rights there would just be 2 central governments controlling 2 seperate 'countries'. One would need a passport to visit friends and relatives in the other 'country', and day to day commerce would be a nightmare because of the import/export tariffs, taxes, quotas, etc. And we would probably go to war more often, because there would be two seperate ideologies to influence the mix and determine what should be done about it - the scariest thing to me is that, if the South had won their independance, there is a very real possibility that we would be going to war against each other - again. I believe that Lincoln was right - a country divided against itself cannot stand.

I'm not advocating this mind you, but if the South had won, it wouldnt be a country divided agains itself any longer. It would be two seperate countries. Just like the USA and England now are.

Yes, but there are how many thousands of miles separating the USA from England? Things may very well have been different if we had been next door neighbors. As I recall from my history classes, England was none to happy about our establishing our independance from them - do you think it would have been different if the South had established her independance from the North?

IMO I dont think there is anyway to say how those two seperate counties would be governed. Could be better, could be worse, could be totally dissfunctional. I do think both sides are better off together.

Are you saying that, although the South had already set up a 'democratic' government it would have changed that? Additionally, at the time of the Civil War the South had little to no industry besides cotton, tobacco, and slaves - cotton and tobacco are seasonal crops, so I don't quite see how they were going to maintain their economy during the winter months without a more solid base of manufacturing, iron works, etc? Plus there is the example set when the USSR disbanded (for lack of a better word). Things weren't great when it was the USSR, but they have gone downhill for most of the countries since the split (not a good choice of words, but the best I can do right now. Sorry.).

Take Duns original question regarding all that was loss. Now subtract half of what remained. The loss would be considerably greater.

3MR, it's too late for my brain to even be able to absorb this statement, much less process the meaning behind it. :oops: Is tomorrow ok with you? :lol: :lol: On a more personal note, I'm sure glad you joined the boards - I really like this kind of conversation! :D

Im not dissagreeing with anything you said. All your points are valid theories. In reference to your post I was just saying it wouldnt be a country divided, as once it was over it would have been two coutnries. The rest was just a personal commentary on the entire disscusion.

My last statement was that even with all the death and combined loss on both sides. The loss would have been even greater if each side took what they had remaining and went home. We recovered and became the great nation we are because we didnt take our baseball and go home.

Regarding industry and resources in the South; Look at Singapore. They are a successful country with basically no natural resources to include land.

The South had tobbacco and Cotton which was better than everything else back then. The industrial revolution hadnt really occured so while industry was important it wasnt essential. The North would have been just as loss without the Souths raw materials as the South would have been without the Norths factories. Import tarrifs on Southern materials was one of the Souths major complaints.

I think there would have been additional problems. What about Manifest Destiny, that would have been a kicker for sure. even with England half way across the world, they still didnt recognize the U.S. as a seperate country until after The War of 1812, we were just breakaway colonies. Im not even going to open the civil rights can of worms.

On a more personal note, I'm sure glad you joined the boards - I really like this kind of conversation! :D

:lol: :lol: Likewise Im sure. :lol:

 

[Alice]

Has the federal government finally cracked down on the illegal immigrants coming in from Mexico or have they let Texas handle it themselves? I was unaware of so many people dying crossing our borders.

Not necessarily by the governments hands...but supply and demand have definitely taken the lives of those trying to get here...boat people from Cuba and Haiti, Mexican citizens literally cooking to death in railroad cars and 18 wheeler trailers.

No, they didn't die by the U.S. governments hands; but, these types of deaths resulted in illegal immigrants trying to escape either from tyranical rule in their own countries or the need to be able to make enough money to feed their families...and the people in the United States that today still illegally hire these illegal immigrants making it all the more attractive for them to come here. Right, wrong, or indifferent, illegal immigrants have died trying to get here.

As to the absurdity of a north and south United States of America...look at North and South Korea, now there's a wonderful example of how well a country divided works...and Germany with that hateful Berlin Wall that did finally come down (thank you Pink Floyd ;-) ).

And, now, before I wind up getting the stuffing beat outta me, I'll stop...oh crap, nevermind. I'm a big girl...I can take it. The civil war in Iraq that has begun...folks, it is my sincere hope that there is a country of Iraq left and not literally obliterated from the face of the earth, for it's citizens to enjoy life, much less a democratic govenment.

Back to the United States: The war between the states...the civil war...the uncivil war (I like that, Dun), the war of southern independence, the war of northern aggression (these last 2 are so absurd) would have been disasterous to both sides had the south actually gained independence. Look at the hatred that many people in the south still carry toward the north! Had that war resulted in two separate countries, there would still be constant battles and skirmishes and there would be no forward advancement of any kind...and the two separate countries would be easy prey to any power mongering country that set it's sights on one or both.

I'm so weary of this separatist mindset...

Alice

 

[3MR]

I dont believe the war has any bearing, or really anything to do with the seperatist of today. Even if they try to use it as part of their reasoning. Its just absurd. Regardless of what may have happened, it happened then and not today and therefore has no bearing on current society, regardless of what people might profess.

I do dissagree that you could compare The USA and CSA, if it was still in existence, to North and South Korea or East and West Germany. North Korea and East germany had/has their problems based upon an attempt at Communism which resulted in a dictatorial goverment which failed to accept free enterprise among, other things.

I also dont believe their is any real animosity today, outside a historical perspective in the vast majority of both Southern and Northerners. Its just cool, for various reasons, to say the South will rise again, etc. Their may be a few ignorant people on both sides who believe otherwise.

 

[Crowderfarms]

Looking back at an outcome of such a battle as the Civil War, is like saying you wish your favorite team had one the Super Bowl, but didn't...Us Southerners have a pride that runs deeper than any ocean. I just wish the 'Hate Groups" would stop using our flag to promote their organizations. It's given us a black eye, and caused the flag to be removed from several state capitols.

 

[Alice]

Looking back at an outcome of such a battle as the Civil War, is like saying you wish your favorite team had one the Super Bowl, but didn't...Us Southerners have a pride that runs deeper than any ocean. I just wish the 'Hate Groups" would stop using our flag to promote their organizations. It's given us a black eye, and caused the flag to be removed from several state capitols.

Crowder, I could kiss you for that! That is what my feeble 6:00 a.m. mind could not come up with! I shudder everytime I see a confederate flag waving at someone's home or tacked all over the front of an 18 wheeler. I always hope that it's Southern Pride...yet, I always fear it's a subtle promotion of hate, and it is this hate that has blackened the South's insignia of their pride.

Thank you!

Alice

 

[Alice]

3mr,

If I'm remembering correctly, East and West Germany resulted as a spoils of war.

Alice

 

[3MR]

Sort of, Im not sure spoils of war would be the exact correct terminology. Im not sure what you are saying by that though.

I agree with Crowder 100%. I think the NAACP should issue all their members confederate flags. I wonder how long the Nazi's and other racist groups would continue to use it as a symbol when the NAACP did so as well.

 

[Crowderfarms]

Sort of, Im not sure spoils of war would be the exact correct terminology. Im not sure what you are saying by that though.

I agree with Crowder 100%. I think the NAACP should issue all their members confederate flags. I wonder how long the Nazi's and other racist groups would continue to use it as a symbol when the NAACP did so as well.

Ah Shucks, We're fixin' to open up another bucket of fish bait!!

 

[3MR]

Sort of, Im not sure spoils of war would be the exact correct terminology. Im not sure what you are saying by that though.

I agree with Crowder 100%. I think the NAACP should issue all their members confederate flags. I wonder how long the Nazi's and other racist groups would continue to use it as a symbol when the NAACP did so as well.

Ah Shucks, We're fixin' to open up another bucket of fish bait!!

Sorry!

 

[Alice]

Sort of, Im not sure spoils of war would be the exact correct terminology. Im not sure what you are saying by that though.

I agree with Crowder 100%. I think the NAACP should issue all their members confederate flags. I wonder how long the Nazi's and other racist groups would continue to use it as a symbol when the NAACP did so as well.

Ah Shucks, We're fixin' to open up another bucket of fish bait!!

Not from me...I don't have the energy to get into that one...at least while the temps are still in the 100s.

Alice

 

[dun]

Gee, all I was commenting on was the unmeasurable loss to the US and the world from so many senseless deaths of possibly great contributors.

dun

 

[3MR]

Gee, all I was commenting on was the unmeasurable loss to the US and the world from so many senseless deaths of possibly great contributors.

dun

Well you know what they say about a stone rolling down hill. Once you get great minds rambling, there is no holding back. 8) :lol:

 

[dun]

Well you know what they say about a stone rolling down hill. Once you get great minds rambling, there is no holding back. 8) :lol:

How does the "great minds" part pertain this these boards?

dun

 

[ranchwife]

Gee, all I was commenting on was the unmeasurable loss to the US and the world from so many senseless deaths of possibly great contributors.

dun

:nod: :nod: :nod:
Very good, dun!! i am sure there are very, very few on these boards who cannot trace their heritage back and find at least ONE loss in the civil war!! Myself included!! Lost many in the Dyer family of Tennessee and have all the records to prove it!! The losses were on BOTH sides of the conflict!! The numbers of total losses are simply astounding!!

On a slightly different note ;-) ....I have not been privileged enough yet to be able to visit some of the battle sites of the war....is it true that many sites have been bulldozed over and built on???? I know that many of the larger, more infamous battles have been preserved, but what of the others?? What about some of the prison camps?? Are any still standing as painful reminders of a painful war??? Sure would love to take an entire summer and just explore if anyone has any suggestions!! :D

 

[Crowderfarms]

ranchwife, my Civil War ancestors include the Dyer's also. I'm a member of the SOCV, and had to prove my ancestry to join. (Sons of Confederate Veterans.)

 

[Alice]

Gee, all I was commenting on was the unmeasurable loss to the US and the world from so many senseless deaths of possibly great contributors.

dun

Sorry, dun...when my thoughts get provoked, my mouth starts to blabber. :oops:
Alice

 

[ranchwife]

ranchwife, my Civil War ancestors include the Dyer's also. I'm a member of the SOCV, and had to prove my ancestry to join. (Sons of Confederate Veterans.)

truly a small world, crowder!! My great-great-great grandfather was Samuel Alexander Dyer, son of Alexander and Docia Dyer of Whitesburg, Tennessee!!! Father of William, Ruth, Stephen and James Courtney McClellan Dyer (my great-great grandfather). I have several photocopies of heart-breaking letters home from Sam in which he talks of missing his wife and children and wishing the war would end...he also talks of the loss of his brother, Isaac! His letters bring to light the true sadness of this war...brother-against-brother...father-against-son!!! Amazing!!!!

 

[D.R. Cattle]

I just wish the 'Hate Groups" would stop using our flag to promote their organizations.

Say it louder brother.