Quicker carcass improvements

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check out the mother company for the webpage I posted earlier.

http://www.geneticsolutions.com.au/content/home.asp?

They have all of the research papers posted on it.


I am excited about the opportunity and appreciate your opening up this discussion thread. I would love to hear input from some of the other guys on the forum. What do you guys think, are we on the right track ????
 
I have heard it said that to do a genetic evaluation for a particular trait the correlation needs to be .60 or as a bare minimum as high as the traits heritability. Any comments?
 
I remembered this thread from a year ago. I just wondered if anyone had any more input after a year. Maybe some of our new members can offer insight.
 
Ollie, Elliss Farms was featured in an article I read recently. It was amazing how much they have improved their carcass data in the last several years through the extensive use of ultrasound.

I agree with LA that this is a good topic, but it takes some thought to keep up!

The bulls who have tested well for the tenderness gene in my breed are being promoted with that as one of the centerpieces. I think this is going to be more widely regarded as a tool for selection as time goes on.
 
My original question now after a year looks unclear. My thought was can ultrasound speed up the selection of livestock that are tender by detecting differences in connective tissue, muscle strand size, or anything else you can notice with an ultrasound machine.
 
I just read a report, I think in Drovers, that they're using ultrasound to see(?) the way the muscle tissue lies and the degree of tenderness by shear test to validate the data.
Didn't pay a lot of attention to ir, just read it in passing

dun
 
ollie":wk60wctd said:
My original question now after a year looks unclear. My thought was can ultrasound speed up the selection of livestock that are tender by detecting differences in connective tissue, muscle strand size, or anything else you can notice with an ultrasound machine.

I've never heard of ultrasound being used that way, but they are improving it every year. The only test that I know of for actual tenderness is the WB shear force test. The animal has to be dead, of course, for that and it's just not practical in a packing plant. I'm of the opinion that we're a long way from really understanding the tenderness gene, but wouldn't hesitate to use a bull carrying it if he had other qualities that I liked.

The "accepted" influence of marbling on tenderness is only about 10%, but I've heard meat scientists from OK State say they believe it's much higher than that. At this point, breeding for marbling seems to still be the best way to provide tender beef for our consumers, unless you want to mechanically tenderize it. Carcass characteristics are pretty heritable, one way or another, so a produce can make good progress by using bulls known to have good carcass.
 
ollie":2jzfdz83 said:
Dun, can you post a link.

As I sadi, I'm not sure where I saw it and it was in print form, not on the net. I'll look around and see if I can find it and maybe post it as a picture

dun
 
Most of the breeds particiapted in the NCBA CArcass MErit program a number of years back. Tenderness data was gathered, but o my knowledge, only Simmental, and maybe now Hereford have posted Tenderness EPD based ofcourse, on WBS force data.

Improving tenderness by WBS takes no longer than carcass testing. It is more expensive, though(splitting the rib section=$). If you want tenderness EPD, then call your breed and tell them to publish them, most of them already have it.

Call Koohmarie and ask him about the USound = Tenderness data, he'll tell you that it is nonsense.

mtnman
 
It is no more nonsense , I can assure you , than carcas data epd's with accuracies lower than the heritability of the trait. But you know it all so I am sure you knew that.
 
From this months Drovers. It's in the Sanning for Dollars part:

Building a value chain
By John Maday (Wednesday, March 16, 2005)


Today's consumers demand a growing list of verified attributes in the food they purchase. For the beef industry to meet those expectations and collect the rewards, each sector of the value chain must work together toward common goals, says Allen Williams. Dr. Williams is vice president of The Jacob Alliance and Livestock Management Consultants, a group that employs specialists in several aspects of beef production to focus on building supply chains for branded-beef programs.

Dr. Williams, whose specialties are genetics and reproduction, says the group works with seedstock breeders, commercial cow-calf producers, stockers, feeders, packers and retailers. Their service is to identify demand opportunities for beef with specific attributes, then develop production systems to meet that demand profitably. Those production systems involve genetic selection, specific management practices, application of technology such as ultrasound scanning and continuous evaluation of production efficiency and beef value.

"We started out working with clients producing for the better-known branded programs such as Coleman Natural Beef, CAB, U.S. Premium Beef and Ranchers' Renaissance," Dr. Williams says. Increasingly, though, producers are seeking involvement in smaller niche areas such as natural and grass-finished beef.

To supply these niche markets, and particularly grass-finished programs, Dr. Williams works with seedstock and commercial producers to identify genetic lines that "work at retail but also produce females that work on the ranch." These grass-finished programs are not breed specific, but most use British breeds as the foundation, with crossbreeding strategies based on each operation's location and environment.

Some utilize straight British crosses, while others use some Continental or Bos indicus genetics.

Regardless of breed type, Dr. Williams says the cows that work best in these systems are moderate-framed, thick-bodied, about 4 to 5 body-condition score, with sound feet and legs. He encourages producers to select for fertility, udder soundness, efficiency and longevity, along with car-cass traits such as retail yield, marbling and tenderness. Dr. Williams says his group combs the country for line-bred sires with proven genetics for efficient production of high-quality grass-finished beef and analyzes performance and carcass data to help direct genetic selection in client herds.

Scanning for dollars
A key tool in this process is ultrasound evaluation. "We conduct ultrasound scanning on all our clients' cattle, usually twice, and use Beef Image Analysis software to apply the information in different ways," Dr. Williams says. In addition to measuring backfat thickness, marbling and ribeye size, this system evaluates two other traits critical to determining an animal's value — beef tenderness and a calf's susceptibility to stress.

The BIA tenderness measurement, Dr. Williams explains, analyzes the alignment of muscle fibers in the ribeye. Several trials have demonstrated that this measurement, on live cattle, correlates closely with the Warner-Bratzler shear-force measurement on beef from the same animals. That correlation, around 85 percent, allows these programs to select cattle for beef tenderness and market beef that is guaranteed tender.

The stress measurement is another unique feature of this system. Dr. Williams says research has shown that during an extended period of stress, such as from sickness or environmental factors, cattle metabolize intramuscular fat in a measurable and predictable pattern. Based on that pattern, the BIA system provides a "stress score," which Dr. Williams says is an excellent predictor of later health and performance.

Analysis of ultrasound images at weaning time allows producers to pre-qualify calves for branded programs. Calves with poor post-weaning stress scores, for example, are most likely to get sick later or perform poorly in the feedyard or in a grass-finishing program. This analysis gives the producer an opportunity to retain ownership of just those calves that are most likely to perform well and qualify for premiums in a branded-beef program. In the long term, though, the greatest opportunity is to identify the blood lines that produce stress-prone calves or less-tender carcasses, and to modify genetic selection accordingly. Dr. Williams says that in just a few years, he has seen some producers improve from a 20 percent acceptance rate to 80 percent, due to changes in genetics and management.

Dr. Williams believes ultrasound scanning and analysis for stress could have more widespread applications throughout the industry. Auctions or feedyards, for example, could potentially screen shipped calves to identify high-risk animals for selective treatment and prevention of respiratory disease.

The second ultrasound scan takes place 90 days or less prior to harvest and serves several purposes. It confirms carcass characteristics for final qualification, projects days to finish and helps stage cattle for delivery to customers. "We need to know what we have coming in various categories to meet customer demand," he says.
 
Accuracies and heritability have nothing to do with each other.

Heritability is a measure of how much of the phenotypic variation in a population is able to be transmitted via genetics to the offspring.

Accuracy is a measure of how well the EPD of an animal relates to it's true unmeasurable breeding value, taken in an alternative definition, it relates to how much we would expect the EPD to chagne in the future as more offspring are reported. This change is from the animals EPD to it's "true" or unmeasurable breeding value.


No, I certainly do not know everything, but I have been exposed to a bit of the science.

mtnman

None of the Ultrasound work from the Jacob Alliance is published. If you are really interested, call Koohmarie at MARC, rather than try to find out the "truth" on the internet.
 
dun":2x83gx20 said:
From this months Drovers. It's in the Sanning for Dollars part:

Building a value chain
By John Maday (Wednesday, March 16, 2005)


Today's consumers demand a growing list of verified attributes in the food they purchase. For the beef industry to meet those expectations and collect the rewards, each sector of the value chain must work together toward common goals, says Allen Williams. Dr. Williams is vice president of The Jacob Alliance and Livestock Management Consultants, a group that employs specialists in several aspects of beef production to focus on building supply chains for branded-beef programs.

Dr. Williams, whose specialties are genetics and reproduction, says the group works with seedstock breeders, commercial cow-calf producers, stockers, feeders, packers and retailers. Their service is to identify demand opportunities for beef with specific attributes, then develop production systems to meet that demand profitably. Those production systems involve genetic selection, specific management practices, application of technology such as ultrasound scanning and continuous evaluation of production efficiency and beef value.

"We started out working with clients producing for the better-known branded programs such as Coleman Natural Beef, CAB, U.S. Premium Beef and Ranchers' Renaissance," Dr. Williams says. Increasingly, though, producers are seeking involvement in smaller niche areas such as natural and grass-finished beef.

To supply these niche markets, and particularly grass-finished programs, Dr. Williams works with seedstock and commercial producers to identify genetic lines that "work at retail but also produce females that work on the ranch." These grass-finished programs are not breed specific, but most use British breeds as the foundation, with crossbreeding strategies based on each operation's location and environment.

Some utilize straight British crosses, while others use some Continental or Bos indicus genetics.

Regardless of breed type, Dr. Williams says the cows that work best in these systems are moderate-framed, thick-bodied, about 4 to 5 body-condition score, with sound feet and legs. He encourages producers to select for fertility, udder soundness, efficiency and longevity, along with car-cass traits such as retail yield, marbling and tenderness. Dr. Williams says his group combs the country for line-bred sires with proven genetics for efficient production of high-quality grass-finished beef and analyzes performance and carcass data to help direct genetic selection in client herds.

Scanning for dollars
A key tool in this process is ultrasound evaluation. "We conduct ultrasound scanning on all our clients' cattle, usually twice, and use Beef Image Analysis software to apply the information in different ways," Dr. Williams says. In addition to measuring backfat thickness, marbling and ribeye size, this system evaluates two other traits critical to determining an animal's value — beef tenderness and a calf's susceptibility to stress.

The BIA tenderness measurement, Dr. Williams explains, analyzes the alignment of muscle fibers in the ribeye. Several trials have demonstrated that this measurement, on live cattle, correlates closely with the Warner-Bratzler shear-force measurement on beef from the same animals. That correlation, around 85 percent, allows these programs to select cattle for beef tenderness and market beef that is guaranteed tender.

The stress measurement is another unique feature of this system. Dr. Williams says research has shown that during an extended period of stress, such as from sickness or environmental factors, cattle metabolize intramuscular fat in a measurable and predictable pattern. Based on that pattern, the BIA system provides a "stress score," which Dr. Williams says is an excellent predictor of later health and performance.

Analysis of ultrasound images at weaning time allows producers to pre-qualify calves for branded programs. Calves with poor post-weaning stress scores, for example, are most likely to get sick later or perform poorly in the feedyard or in a grass-finishing program. This analysis gives the producer an opportunity to retain ownership of just those calves that are most likely to perform well and qualify for premiums in a branded-beef program. In the long term, though, the greatest opportunity is to identify the blood lines that produce stress-prone calves or less-tender carcasses, and to modify genetic selection accordingly. Dr. Williams says that in just a few years, he has seen some producers improve from a 20 percent acceptance rate to 80 percent, due to changes in genetics and management.

Dr. Williams believes ultrasound scanning and analysis for stress could have more widespread applications throughout the industry. Auctions or feedyards, for example, could potentially screen shipped calves to identify high-risk animals for selective treatment and prevention of respiratory disease.

The second ultrasound scan takes place 90 days or less prior to harvest and serves several purposes. It confirms carcass characteristics for final qualification, projects days to finish and helps stage cattle for delivery to customers. "We need to know what we have coming in various categories to meet customer demand," he says.

These people

http://www.touchstoneangus.com/

are using ultrasound to identify animals with tender meat. The sale flyer I got as an email said they have DNA tested some bulls for the tenderness gene and using Dr. Williams' ultrasounded procedure on the others for tenderness. You might look them over...
 
I guess the problem I see with the tenderness "gene" test and EPD is that tenderness is not just the result of one gene. Tenderness is a quantitative trait, and so one gene has very little effect on the overall expression of the trait. Basing culling practices off of the results of a one-gene test or EPD seems to me to be a bit radical and potentially dangerous.

Any thoughts?
 
Interesting conversation, but I would hate to see cattle breeding chasing one trait or gene. This pratice has got us into troble in the past, but on the subject of tenderness, heres a question for you. How quickly do you think we could improve the quality of eating experiance for the consumer for the consumer if packers would simply age their product. As producers they seem to have us chasing our tails just to provide the perfect product for them.
 
houstoncutter":ydw6gksv said:
How quickly do you think we could improve the quality of eating experiance for the consumer for the consumer if packers would simply age their product.
As of now most major plants are set to cryovac pack all the meat, the plants would have to add new cooler space for hanging the carcasses, this would take probaly several months. Once this is done we are looking at about 10 day to 4 weeks hanging time.. Mostly 2 to 3 weeks, with some carcasses as long as 4 weeks, depending on the fat thickness. There would be added expense for weight loss from the drippings, and the fat and mold that would have to be trimmed off every few days, so there would be added labor expense involved here.
I would expect it to take at least 6 mo. or longer to be ready to sell dry aged beef which would greatly improve the flavor and tenderness of the beef for the consumer.
 
La4Angus, you hit the nail right on the head with your previous post. The ability to improve the eating experiance of the consumer is availiable to the beef industry now. Now just imagine producing beef that will have grade ability and yeilds that are at least 2's. That is something that can be done on a regular basis in all parts of the country. Then have the packer treat like it should be treated. Then we would not be chasing the next science break thru that is gone to give us a better side of beef.... Of course that might not set to well with the packers or agri-biz education.
 

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