Quick education !!!

[deaconcreek]

Very happy to say we have a new addition!! Since our first was still born, I was so excited to go out Friday morning and find a bull calf walking around the pen. Mom showed no sign the night before so it was a welcome surprise (or so I thought)
Little guy weighed 89# and was up following mom around. Mom tried to kill us, but we got him weighed and navel dipped, put him back with mom. About 3 hours later we realized he was not nursing, so we had some frozen colostrum, brought him in to bottle feed and he did well, put him back out with mom. About six hours later he still wasn't nursing, mom was trying to get him to, but he just couldn't figure it out. Brought him in and tried to bottle feed, he wouldn't nurse, so called the vet. After IV, shot of selenium, and tube feeding we thought he would perk up. Turns out we have what real cattle people call a DUMB bull calf. It has been three days and still no suck, but we have leaened alot quick! Master at tube feeding now, have learned that our mud room make a good nursery, and I save all those old blankets for a reason... Happy to say that he is doing well up and snooping around, but still no sucking. Thought I might call the vet this morning about his selenim level, after reading posts on here. Also he it still alittle shakey and stiff on his feet, is this normal? Any advise would be welcome. Loads of work, but I expect when he's out running in the pasture and I sit on the porch watching, it will all be worth it. Just to proud had to post pic....

 

[shorty]

Don't let him get too used to being tube fed , If you don't have a chute , tie her and put him with her , squirt milk in his mouth put her nipples in his mouth do whatever you can, you must get him drinking . sometimes they are dumb but you have to help them.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I'm a little confused, the calf sucked the bottle the first time than he won't suck now? Also, are you milking the cow out - she will dry up if you don't milk her out at least once a day. Also, I agree about confining the cow & trying to get the calf to suck on her. I'm not worried about how long you tube the calf, when it gets the instinct to suck - it will suck no matter how many times it's been tubed. I have never seen one "get a sore throat" or anything like that. Had a premie this year, his lungs weren't developed properly, tubed him for 5 days, than he just got up one morning and started sucking. But, he was kept with his mom 24/7. I do believe he should get more selenium. When we used to get dumb suckers, we would hit them with 1-2 CC SQ (BoSe) the 2nd day (after a full dose at birth) and 1 cc sq the next day til they sucked.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Is that calf in the house? :shock:

 

[deaconcreek]

Yes Caustic the calf is in the mud room..... :roll: We did put him with his mother over the weekend on and off. He seems to get really cold and sluggish if he is out too long. And yes he did suck a bottle once the first day. He will lick milk off mom's utter, but will not suck. This is hard for me to understand too, if he did it once he can do it again. Problem is now that it is Monday, I have no help all day, so working with mom is not possible, the man of the house is gone dark to dark. Not sure if having a bottle calf is what I want, but it is better than a dead one. I will call the vet for BoSe this morning.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Sounds like a dummy calf can he suck at all?

 

[deaconcreek]

Not really just plays with it. It's like it is a foriegn object in his mouth. Acts like he can't get is tounge to work right. Called the vet, waiting for him to call me back.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The problem with Se deficiency (white muscle disease) it affects LARGE muscles - heart, lung, leg muscles - TONGUE! So he might have been born with "just enough" but used up what little he had??? Anyway, I am a STRONG believer of BoSe for newborns.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Not really just plays with it. It's like it is a foriegn object in his mouth. Acts like he can't get is tounge to work right. Called the vet, waiting for him to call me back.

You might pm Milkmaid or Dee for some tricks I have wrassled with them for a couple of weeks to get them kicked off.
I have seen it more in Brammers.

I have been to a rat killins, county fair and rodeo. but you get the prize for cows in the house. :drink:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

CB - that's cause you are in the WARM part of US. When we managed a herd that calved outdoors, we had our share of BATHTUB calves. :shock: Bring them in, float them in the bathtub in warm water to litterally thaw them out (legs would be frozen stiff), than put them in a mud room or similar & dry them with a blow dryer. Than put them with mom. My dog used to LOVE those house calves. Would lick them & protect them.
Yup, been there. Don't think I've had a house calf for over 10 years. They sure can make a mess in a hurry :shock:

 

[deaconcreek]

Thanks Jeanne, when the vet calls back I think I will just get a vial of BoSe, I have three more cows due out there. What dosage should I use? and when should I give it to a newborn? We are in an area that is selenium defiecent, the cows always have good minerals, is there anything else I can do to prevent it?
Caustic: Thank you.. I know it is only 9:00am here, but after taking care of a dumb calf for three days, doing all my chores this morning, and still a whole day ahead of me that long neck is already looking good.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

There is BoSe & MuSe (B for baby - M for Momma - that's how I explain it to folks)
Anyway, the BoSe recommends 2.75 to 3.5 (I believe) I use a 4 cc / 100#. It can be given SQ or IM. I always hit them SQ, but if I have one not sucking, I'll give 1cc IM & 1cc SQ the 2nd day. SQ is slow release, that's why I'll give 1 IM to get it working faster.
I don't recommend this to anyone else, but we feed 3X the recommended dose (3mg) in our loose mineral year round. BUT, we ran a number of blood samples & increased slowly until we got the herd up to a normal blood level. You can't buy "premixed" mineral with this dosage. Ours is custom mixed.

 

[deaconcreek]

Vet just called me back, she said no more selenium fear of toxicity. She said all I could do was give him some B vitamins to help his appetite, and keep doing what I am doing. I keep waiting for that magic light bulb to go off in his head "wow I can use my mouth..." if not it is going to be a long week.

 

[milkmaid]

After IV, shot of selenium, and tube feeding we thought he would perk up. Turns out we have what real cattle people call a DUMB bull calf.

Vet just called me back, she said no more selenium fear of toxicity. She said all I could do was give him some B vitamins to help his appetite, and keep doing what I am doing

Will he suck on your fingers?

As to the BoSe- I'd do it anyway. Take that for what it's worth. :lol: I've given them 3-4 full doses inside a 2 week period with no problems. An additional 1cc SC today and tomorrow isn't going to be a problem...again, take it for what it's worth. Internet opinion. ;-) Keep us posted.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Vet just called me back, she said no more selenium fear of toxicity. She said all I could do was give him some B vitamins to help his appetite, and keep doing what I am doing. I keep waiting for that magic light bulb to go off in his head "wow I can use my mouth..." if not it is going to be a long week.

I hate to say this - but your vet is behind time. Cornell TRIED to kill cattle by OD them with Se and COULD NOT DO IT.
The manager of the beef farm at Cornell, routinely gives extra SE just like I recommended. This has been commonly discussed at many cattle meetings. It is common practice - even recommended by the vets.

Yes, se is supposed to be toxic, but not in a SE deficient area.
I would recommend getting the bottle for your new calves coming - and use it again on THIS CALF - pronto!
When you get another newborn, I would be sure to give it a full dose (1/2 SQ & 1/2 IM) as soon as you can. If one is deficient, they may all be.

 

[jkwilson]

Make sure that calf has a chance to get hungry. We'll tube them to get them started, but after that they get offered a bottle or mama every time. If they don't get hungry, they don't have the drive to nurse. We've also been fooled by calves that are nursing, but don't show any interest when they aren't hungry.

Had a neighbor stop by and tell me he had a calf that was a week old and still wasn't nursing. Wanted to know if I'd show him how to tube it. I told him he wasn't paying very good attention to the calf :lol:

 

[deaconcreek]

Vet just called me back, she said no more selenium fear of toxicity. She said all I could do was give him some B vitamins to help his appetite, and keep doing what I am doing. I keep waiting for that magic light bulb to go off in his head "wow I can use my mouth..." if not it is going to be a long week.

I hate to say this - but your vet is behind time. Cornell TRIED to kill cattle by OD them with Se and COULD NOT DO IT.
The manager of the beef farm at Cornell, routinely gives extra SE just like I recommended. This has been commonly discussed at many cattle meetings. It is common practice - even recommended by the vets.

Yes, se is supposed to be toxic, but not in a SE deficient area.
I would recommend getting the bottle for your new calves coming - and use it again on THIS CALF - pronto!
When you get another newborn, I would be sure to give it a full dose (1/2 SQ & 1/2 IM) as soon as you can. If one is deficient, they may all be.

I have to go to the vets office today and pick up my bill I will see about getting a bottle for future calves. I tend to agree with you about the selenium, not only is he not nursing, he just doesn't seem to have control of his legs either, still walks around slow and easy. Also seems depressed. He just mouths your fingers, he makes the motion just seems likes his tounge won't cooperate and there is little suction. This is all new to me, so the little tricks that cattleman know, I am clueless, I was a horse girl until I met my other half and he reformed me.

JK, we let him go for 12 hours last night thinking the same thing, he would lick everything in sight, but still no suck. Did I not let him go long enough? We have been feeding him three times a day as per vet instructions, 2 qts morning, afternoon Resorb, 2qts at night. Is that ok?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

First, I would check his TEMPERATURE. Being sluggish may be from a fever. Next, I only tube 2 quarts 2X a day of powdered milk replace (the best I can buy). Why is the vet having you feed electrolites???? Calf may be starving. You should only need electrolites if calf is scouring. Is this a cattle vet?????
I may be wrong, but it seems to be that they USED to have you take a scouring calf completely off milk and only feed electrolites, but then they discovered the calves were starving, so now they have you feed milk one feeding & electrolites next feeding. I can't remember the last time we ever fed electrolites, so I'm not real sure about that fact.

 

[jkwilson]

JK, we let him go for 12 hours last night thinking the same thing, he would lick everything in sight, but still no suck. Did I not let him go long enough? We have been feeding him three times a day as per vet instructions, 2 qts morning, afternoon Resorb, 2qts at night. Is that ok?

He should have been hungry after 12 hours. I wouldn't argue with the vet, but I'd cut the Resorb.

 

[deaconcreek]

I check his temp three times a day, just did it and it was 101.4. He is getting up more, but still seems depressed and akward, IMO. I will switch to just milk replacer twice a day and see how he does. We try the bottle first, I have more patience than the man of the house, so I give him about a half hour of trying before we tube him. He has all the other body functions down good, just not eating.