question regarding square vs round hay bales

[dun]

This chemical treatment you speak of is alot like those magnets they sell that you attach to your cars gas lines to improve your mileage. Nobody will have the same results. I've seen hay with the preservatives just as rotten inside as the same hay from the same field that was untreated. I'm not sold on that crap 100% it seems to work sometimes.

I suppose next you claim that Detroit isn't sitting on a 100 mpg carburetor

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

3 months during heavy rainfall showing only a 1/2 inch spoilage is extremely hard for me to believe. Anyone who has put up a significant amount of hay knows that is impossible.

Impossible, huh? Perhaps you're confusing sunbleaching with spoilage? Two completely different things. But don't pull the impossible line, unless you're willing to come up here and hay for a few years.

Think about it for a bit. A small square bale is about 18 inches or so thick. If you end up with 2 inches of spoilage all around the outside of a bale, you're losing 20% of so of your bale. Uh uh.

If you're getting that much spoilage, I think you'd better start PACKING your bales instead of leaving them sitting loose then, unless whatever you're baling doesn't allow for tight packing. I've been putting up hay for 30 years, the last few years custom as well as my own. I've never had to hay in the south with your different grasses, but stick to plain old alfalfa or meadow brome style grasses.

Rod

 

[somn]

This chemical treatment you speak of is alot like those magnets they sell that you attach to your cars gas lines to improve your mileage. Nobody will have the same results. I've seen hay with the preservatives just as rotten inside as the same hay from the same field that was untreated. I'm not sold on that crap 100% it seems to work sometimes.

I suppose next you claim that Detroit isn't sitting on a 100 mpg carburetor

Nope I know they have the carb it is the reverse chimichanga replexer that the carb needs to work correctly they are hiding from the American public.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I don't profess to be a hay expert, but I don't buy that Rod. Even if my belief that setting small bales on edge reduces the surface area that the rain can soak into is untrue, setting bales on edge prevents the strings from rotting. And what does an accumulator have to do with it? An accumulator dumps the bales on edge, close together, with nice little low spots between bales that ensures that the rain will soak down between the bales and get them good and wet - been there, done that. :?

I don't use sisel twine around here. I don't think anyone has around here for decades. About the only reason we ever dropped squares on their sides was for the New Holland picker. It wouldn't pick up bales laying flat.

As for not buying it, mss, how much alfalfa hay do you guys put up? If you've got some, go grab a few stems of it. You take a stem of alfalfa, stick it in a glass with the stem down. Check it in awhile and you'll find that water has wicked it way UP the stem. In a few hours, it'll be soaked completely through. Take another stem, lay it flat on a pan of water. It'll take much longer for water to soak through the stem. If you don't believe, give it a shot for yourself.

As far as the accumulator goes, I assumed you guys were talking about auto stackers. Those things that accumulated three bales in a pyramid shape and spit them out the back? To be honest, I forgot all about the style you're talking about.

Rod

 

[somn]

3 months during heavy rainfall showing only a 1/2 inch spoilage is extremely hard for me to believe. Anyone who has put up a significant amount of hay knows that is impossible.

Impossible, huh? Perhaps you're confusing sunbleaching with spoilage? Two completely different things. But don't pull the impossible line, unless you're willing to come up here and hay for a few years.

Think about it for a bit. A small square bale is about 18 inches or so thick. If you end up with 2 inches of spoilage all around the outside of a bale, you're losing 20% of so of your bale. Uh uh.

If you're getting that much spoilage, I think you'd better start PACKING your bales instead of leaving them sitting loose then, unless whatever you're baling doesn't allow for tight packing. I've been putting up hay for 30 years, the last few years custom as well as my own. I've never had to hay in the south with your different grasses, but stick to plain old alfalfa or meadow brome style grasses.

Rod

The nightly dew has nothing to do with sunbleaching. After 30 years even you should know the difference between the 2. By telling me that you have hay that has been exposed to all the elements outside under open sky for three months during heavy rainfall and yet you have less than 1/2 inch of spoilage makes me wonder how bad the hay would need to be before you thought it is spoiled. Even without seeing your hay I'm 100% certain I would never ever want to buy any of your hay. I cringe just thinking about getting a load of that hay. Only 2 real possiblities here you are not real sure what heavy rainfall is or you don't know what spoilage in hay looks like.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

The nightly dew has nothing to do with sunbleaching. After 30 years even you should know the difference between the 2. By telling me that you have hay that has been exposed to all the elements outside under open sky for three months during heavy rainfall and yet you have less than 1/2 inch of spoilage makes me wonder how bad the hay would need to be before you thought it is spoiled. Even without seeing your hay I'm 100% certain I would never ever want to buy any of your hay. I cringe just thinking about getting a load of that hay. Only 2 real possiblities here you are not real sure what heavy rainfall is or you don't know what spoilage in hay looks like.

You guys must have a heckuva dew around your area if its enough to spoil hay. Either that, or you don't/can't pack your bales tight enough. Or you don't have enough hours of sunlight to dry the shell before it spoils. Or, or, or. Like I said, I have no idea what your area is like, nor do you have any idea what mine is like.

As for quality, my first cut stuff often qualifies dairy quality, and my second cut always qualifies dairy. We have near perfect alfalfa growing conditions up here, with a large number of sunlight hours contributing to high hay quality. Much of the hay in my area ends up being trucked into the US, despite the distance to the border.

This year will likely be an exception as its been cold and extremely wet, so the alfalfa isn't coming and the grass has got way ahead of it. Its not a problem if you wouldn't want it, as I've got more customers than I have excess hay each year. ;-)

Rod

 

[msscamp]

I don't profess to be a hay expert, but I don't buy that Rod. Even if my belief that setting small bales on edge reduces the surface area that the rain can soak into is untrue, setting bales on edge prevents the strings from rotting. And what does an accumulator have to do with it? An accumulator dumps the bales on edge, close together, with nice little low spots between bales that ensures that the rain will soak down between the bales and get them good and wet - been there, done that. :?

I don't use sisel twine around here. I don't think anyone has around here for decades. About the only reason we ever dropped squares on their sides was for the New Holland picker. It wouldn't pick up bales laying flat.

As for not buying it, mss, how much alfalfa hay do you guys put up? If you've got some, go grab a few stems of it. You take a stem of alfalfa, stick it in a glass with the stem down. Check it in awhile and you'll find that water has wicked it way UP the stem. In a few hours, it'll be soaked completely through. Take another stem, lay it flat on a pan of water. It'll take much longer for water to soak through the stem. If you don't believe, give it a shot for yourself.

I will definitely do that. We put up roughly 100 acres, maybe a little more, 3-4 times a year depending on Mother Nature, and when the last and first freeze hits.

As far as the accumulator goes, I assumed you guys were talking about auto stackers. Those things that accumulated three bales in a pyramid shape and spit them out the back? To be honest, I forgot all about the style you're talking about.

Rod

Ok, that makes more sense. Not being a hay expert, I wasn't aware that there was another type of accumulator except the type that spits out 8 or 10 bales at a time - my apologies. Your post now makes a lot more sense, and I thank you for clarifying.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Besides somn, if you'll check back a few messages, I made the 1/2 inch spoilage statement about stacks in pyramids, not about individual bales laying in a field.

Heres the exact quote:

"The neighbor had some squares stacked pyramid and he showed about 1/2 inch of spoilage on the outside of the pyramid, with the insides being sweet as can be."

What I said about individual bales laying in a field is that there would be no more spoilage on those than there would be on a round bale.

Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I will definitely do that. We put up roughly 100 acres, maybe a little more, 3-4 times a year depending on Mother Nature, and when the last and first freeze hits.

I don't spose you have anyone near you with square bales do you? If you do, ask if you can steal one. Take a pitcher of water and pour it over the outside shell and watch how much runs off. Then lay it on edge and pour straight on the edge.

Rod

 

[msscamp]

I will definitely do that. We put up roughly 100 acres, maybe a little more, 3-4 times a year depending on Mother Nature, and when the last and first freeze hits.

I don't spose you have anyone near you with square bales do you? If you do, ask if you can steal one. Take a pitcher of water and pour it over the outside shell and watch how much runs off. Then lay it on edge and pour straight on the edge.

Rod

We do. All of our hay is put up in squares - small squares as well as 4X4's. There is a 4X4 sitting out by the horses pens that is uncut, as well as a small square, right now. It is always stored in a hay shed or tarped, though, so I only know what tends to happen when the tarp springs a leak. Interesting - I will do that, too. One question, though by 'straight on the edge' do you mean pour the water in the middle of the bale while it is sitting on edge? Same thing for when it's not sitting on edge? Thanks, Rod!

 

[novatech]

Bale wet hay round or square you end up with filler or compost. Round will keep better stored outside, but a tremedous amount of nutrional value will be lost.
If hay gets wet it is just another risk you take by being a farmer or rancher.

 

[novatech]

Novatech,
Re:

So why not just use a chemical treatment. It might cost a little but you gain it back it nutritional value.

Because I'm not the least bit concerned about such a small amount of lose of nutritional value in hay. I can very easily feed them more and regain that little nutrition and not have the additional expense and aggravation by using chemicals.

Re:

Science brought this to you. So you may find it a little offensive.

I don't find science and/or chemical offensive. I think they both are great. I'm all for improving no matter how it is gained.
It's just that I think we have a system that works and I see no need for chemicals at this time, but that could change.
And I certainly understand that some other people may feel the need for them and can justify the added cost and aggravation.

Science also brought us heart transplants, but I don't feel the need for one of those ether, but that too could change.

Re:

It would also settle this debate.

Now we are both on the same wave length again.
Thank you for using the word "debate" instead of "argument" because that is all I have ever been engaging in, even if it didn't seem that way to you.
SL

Sirloin;
I will give you credit for the ability in baleing hay that does not catch on fire. The fact that you have never seen it has nothing to do with weather it can happen or not. If a beginner reads some of your suggestions it may cause him to get into some serious trouble.
I will also give you credit on getting some salvage value out of baleing wet hay. But that is all it is, salvage. If you do not beleive this send it off to be tested.
Baleing hay is in no way shape or form an art. Wrong word. It is a skill that has been aquired by you over many years, nomatter what you think your ending up with. I suggest that you study up on the effects heat build up has on the value of that hay. In my bussiness I am the very best at what I do. But not a day goes by that I do not try and learn more. Some of the new tech works for me some does not, but it is there for the takeing so why not.
I still respect your opinion as you have been at this for a very long time.

 

[The Bachelor]

I've just went through all six of these pages. Heres what I've come up with from all this....

Dry is good, wet is bad.
Round is better than square for holding out water.

Am I missing something here?

 

[novatech]

I've just went through all six of these pages. Heres what I've come up with from all this....

Dry is good, wet is bad.
Round is better than square for holding out water.

Am I missing something here?

Dry hay in barn best.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

One question, though by 'straight on the edge' do you mean pour the water in the middle of the bale while it is sitting on edge? Same thing for when it's not sitting on edge? Thanks, Rod!

Pour it in the middle, or go up and down the length, doesn't really matter. It'll be especially revealing on a cereal straw bale.

Rod

 

[AngusLimoX]

I've just went through all six of these pages. Heres what I've come up with from all this....

Dry is good, wet is bad.
Round is better than square for holding out water.

Am I missing something here?

The original question - can a round baler make dry hay ahead of a square baler because it handles hay moisture better - FALSE - the reverse is true. It is only when you start adding variations and circumstances that the round baler has advantages.

I wonder how many others now have this false belief.

I find it surprising that so little regard is given to what Diamond has said ( in my opinion Rod is one of the most knowledgeable and credible posters on this board ) - those little "stacks" that he makes are called "stooks". There are 3 bale up to 10 bale versions. The stooks minimize contact with the ground, allow air movement through the bales and allow water to run off. Everyone stooked around here for years, and sheaving and stooking straw/corn has gone on for hundreds of years.

Stooks keep hay surprisingly well and many folks fed out of the stooks through the winter not bothering to bring them in to the barn, although the average length of stay in the field was 2 weeks around here.

ALX

 

[novatech]

Round will keep better stored outside, but a tremedous amount of nutrional value will be lost.

Makes no sense. "Keeps better" implies that the overall value of the bale stays pretty much intact but yet you say there is "temendous loss". Can't have it both ways.

From the research I have read, leaving bales (any shape, any size) outside, uncovered, on the ground, subject to all weather, results in rapid dry matter deterioration of the bale.

Eliminating bale-to-ground contact and covering the bales, while allowing some air circulation, will offer similar results to that of hay stored in a barn

"keeps better" only implies what you want to read into it.
Round bales will keep better and you are right they will rot.
The exteriors first a gradually work its way into the bale. It just takes a lot more time than on a square bale.
As far on storage goes I believe that my past posts on another thread would indicate that I agree with you.

 

[AngusLimoX]

I fail to see what "shooks", "stooks" "cobs" or "cocks" of hay have to do with this modern day issue at hand unless we're going Amish.



why will round bales cure in the field and square won't?

I hope you are asking a serious question here, because unless you are being argumentive the bottom line of your post answers your first question.

They will.

ALX

 

[AngusLimoX]

An excerpt from http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/bse/442-106/442-106.html that lends support to ALX's statement about larger bales drying slower than small:

"Baling at the proper moisture level is critical to making quality hay, especially for larger bales (round and square) since moisture and heat dissipate more slowly in comparison to smaller bales."

Now you are on the right track! :lol:

Now for an admission - I never considered stooking in the last few years when I was in situations where the hay was a little tougher than I would like in the barn, but it was going to get rained on, and my round baler was in for service or otherwise not available.

Also if my kicker breaks and I am alone ( as I often am ) I am just gonna stook em and not worry about it.

That is the kind of old time knowledge that can save thousands of modern dollars AB. We have Mennonites around here - talk about know how to finish cattle!

Funny how you can forget things you have known all your life. :lol:

ALX

 

[Sir Loin]

It's starting to go over my boot tops on this topic so I will be moving on.
But first I thought you might find these pics and comments interesting.
Pics were taken today.


Pic 1.
This is a pic of 2 year old hay stored in the field. The far two have been untouched.
The one in the foreground I dropped to remove the rotten part. Now the actual size is distorted due to the angle the pic was taken, so I will tell you the open bale is about half the other two.
These are the last 3 two YO hay I have and I am feeding them directly to my cows and they eat them just fine (the center half that is)

pic. 2
Close up of open bale in pic 1.

Pic 3.
Is a bale of an almost to the day 1 year old bale.
It was baled green and wet and is rotten through and through, I couldn't even pick it up. The fork just pulled right up through it.

Besides being baled green and wet, it was also stored in the field improperly.
It was put in the woods an one end was tilted up to about 6 degrees.

Catcha on the flip side people!
SL