Purebred V fullblood

[Old_man_emu]

Hi guys,

This has probably been asked a million times, but can some explain the difference between purebred and fullblood?

Thanks

 

[3waycross]

Hi guys,

This has probably been asked a million times, but can some explain the difference between purebred and fullblood?

Thanks

Purebred ain't pure and Fullblood is!

 

[Old_man_emu]

Thats what I had assumed. So how do you know what's what anymore?
Are fullblood and purebred in different registers or marked accordingly?
Here we have herdbook and APR for our Angus cattle. The herdbook is closed , only the offspring of herdbook parents can be registered in the herdbook, including those registered by other countries. APR cattle can be bred from cows that are 7/8ths Angus joined to herdbook or APR bulls, or thats how I understand it.

 

[dun]

Fullblood is 100% of the breed tracing back to the original imports, pureblood is bred up from other breeds and will always be less then 100%.

 

[kjonesel]

You can find a good explanation concerning Gelbvieh at www.gelbvieh.org

 

[Old_man_emu]

Being the pot stirrer that I am, are there many fullblood herds left in the US and Canada? I'm particularly interested in Angus as that's what I currently work with and I am a bit colour bind as a result.

 

[dun]

Being the pot stirrer that I am, are there many fullblood herds left in the US and Canada? I'm particularly interested in Angus as that's what I currently work with and I am a bit colour bind as a result.

The fullblood pureblood deal only applies to the continental breeds. Hereford and black angus (at least in the US) if registered all go back to the orginal herdbook. Red Angus (in the US) have categorys for different percentages. 1A is pure Angus and red, 1B is less then pure angus but more then 87%. Black Angus can be rgistrd in the Red Angus book but they're classified as Category II, must be equal to or greater than 87% up to and including 100% Angus blood content having one or more disqualifying characteristics. In their case the disqualifying characterisitic is being black instead of red.
Some of the continental associations use different percentages for pureblood for bulls and cows.

 

[Old_man_emu]

Being the pot stirrer that I am, are there many fullblood herds left in the US and Canada? I'm particularly interested in Angus as that's what I currently work with and I am a bit colour bind as a result.

The fullblood pureblood deal only applies to the continental breeds. Hereford and black angus (at least in the US) if registered all go back to the orginal herdbook. Red Angus (in the US) have categorys for different percentages. 1A is pure Angus and red, 1B is less then pure angus but more then 87%. Black Angus can be rgistrd in the Red Angus book but they're classified as Category II, must be equal to or greater than 87% up to and including 100% Angus blood content having one or more disqualifying characteristics. In their case the disqualifying characterisitic is being black instead of red.
Some of the continental associations use different percentages for pureblood for bulls and cows.

That's interesting Dun!
A friend of mine who was previously in the angus game and has been around longer than I, swears that Angus cattle were "interfered" with for lack of a better term some years ago.He says Chinaina (please excuse my spelling) where introduced into the mix. He also often argues with another local Angus stud breeder in the area who flat out denies it.
And so there are black animals on the red register that are not fullblood you say? How would I identify these animals when looking at an AI catalogue?

 

[RD-Sam]

Being the pot stirrer that I am, are there many fullblood herds left in the US and Canada? I'm particularly interested in Angus as that's what I currently work with and I am a bit colour bind as a result.

The fullblood pureblood deal only applies to the continental breeds. Hereford and black angus (at least in the US) if registered all go back to the orginal herdbook. Red Angus (in the US) have categorys for different percentages. 1A is pure Angus and red, 1B is less then pure angus but more then 87%. Black Angus can be rgistrd in the Red Angus book but they're classified as Category II, must be equal to or greater than 87% up to and including 100% Angus blood content having one or more disqualifying characteristics. In their case the disqualifying characterisitic is being black instead of red.
Some of the continental associations use different percentages for pureblood for bulls and cows.

That's interesting Dun!
A friend of mine who was previously in the angus game and has been around longer than I, swears that Angus cattle were "interfered" with for lack of a better term some years ago.He says Chinaina (please excuse my spelling) where introduced into the mix. He also often argues with another local Angus stud breeder in the area who flat out denies it.
And so there are black animals on the red register that are not fullblood you say? How would I identify these animals when looking at an AI catalogue?

I've heard so many rumors about angus being crossed with other breeds, that I don't think there is a breed they aren't supposed to be mixed with. My guess is that most of it is just rumors and nothing more if they are registered. I would say allot of the rumors were started by jealous people that couldn't stand the thought of a breeder doing a better job than they could do themselves, and just made up lies to start trouble.

 

[dun]

And so there are black animals on the red register that are not fullblood you say? How would I identify these animals when looking at an AI catalogue?

Look up their registration numbers and the category and percentage are given. This only applies to the American Red Angus Association: http://redangus.org/

 

[UG]

I too know of some Angus faithful that will insist that every Angus animal in the Angus herdbook is pure Angus. However, I have my doubts. Though I feel that most Angus producers are honest, I also know some who are known to bend the rules to their favor, and could be persuaded by the precious dollar to do some less than honest things.

In the 60's the vast majority of Angus cattle in the US were small or relatively small framed. I find it interesting that in less than a ten years the Angus breed had significantly increased the frame size of a large percentage of the Angus cattle. Think about it. If in 1967 many Angus breeders decided that they needed to increase the frame size of their cattle and bred a high percentage of their cows to one of the larger framed Angus bulls of that day (which still wasn't all that tall) the first daughters of this breeding would be born in '68 and wouldn't have their first calf until '70, which would be the second generation of this focus toward larger cattle. Those second generation heifers wouln't have their first calves (the third generation) until '72. The point I am trying to make is that it takes a long time, due to the generation intervals of cattle, to make a significant change in phenotype. Maybe I'm just being skeptical but I have a hard time believing that the Angus breed was able to change so much in the 70's and 80's without the influence of some dairy or Continental influence.

A good illustration of the changes in physical changes in cattle over time can be found at a:
https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historica ... etype.html

To add to my skepticism, over the years I have had different commercial producers comment that they occasionally get a horned or flowered calf out of their registered Angus bulls...yes, bulls registered with the American Angus Association. I apologize if this sounds like Angus bashing, because it isn't. In my opinion, Angus probably do more things right than any other breed, however I question if every Angus breeder in North America was able to stand firm to his commitment to breed purebred Angus cattle, when it would have been soooo easy to just add a bit of Brown Swiss, Holstein, Limousin, or Chi to some cows in order to get a jump ahead of the competition in the frame race of the 70's and 80's.

 

[Old_man_emu]

A good illustration of the changes in physical changes in cattle over time can be found at a:
https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historica ... etype.html

WOW! I found that to be a real eye opener. The cattle were taken from something similar to what they are today in 1904 to lowline size or small by the 50's then through the 60's they seemed to at least double in frame size!
Thanks for the link.

 

[pk1]

I doubt there is Fullblood Angus left, maybe if you could find a pedigree that traces back to Scotland. Most Purebred cattle are around the 90%. Alot of black Simmental bulls that have come to Australia are between 75% and 85%, black limo bulls range between 86 and 90%, I have found that the purebred cattle have better calving ease and shorter gestation lengths moderate fame then there fullblood relatives, however the fullbloods have better growth more frame and in my experience can breed a more powerfull product. I usually use a fullblood over purebred to keep the calves polled, and mederate and I get a more consistent end result, I have found that if I go purebred over purebred for consecutive generations they can become moderate with no growth no power especially if I use bulls that are in the minus for birth, for 2-3 generations, end up breeding small cattle that are narrow. I am inclined to believe that it is good to cross fullblood with purebred in a seedstock situation, it adds another dimension to a pedigree and can have a hybrid vigour effect on a purebred line of cattle. :cboy:

 

[robert]

black Limo and black simmental are by definition crossbreds, the black gene did not exist in either breed until introduced through either angus or black baldies. On paper all Angus trace to their Scottish ancestors, in all probability there are some that likely do not in practice. The Wye cattle were a major source of size when the fashions changed in the late 60's, Wye cattle were never small, however by todays standards many people would call them smaller framed, Wye didn't change but the breed sure did. Many herds in the western states (montana in particular) were at the forefront of performance testing in the late 50's and early 60's, again they never did make the cattle belt buckle and served as a resource for larger genetics when the time came, as did western Canadian herds. Frame score is probably the easiest single trait to select for if you ignore every other consideration so progress can be very rapid, in either direction up or down.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I too know of some Angus faithful that will insist that every Angus animal in the Angus herdbook is pure Angus. However, I have my doubts. Though I feel that most Angus producers are honest, I also know some who are known to bend the rules to their favor, and could be persuaded by the precious dollar to do some less than honest things.

In the 60's the vast majority of Angus cattle in the US were small or relatively small framed. I find it interesting that in less than a ten years the Angus breed had significantly increased the frame size of a large percentage of the Angus cattle. Think about it. If in 1967 many Angus breeders decided that they needed to increase the frame size of their cattle and bred a high percentage of their cows to one of the larger framed Angus bulls of that day (which still wasn't all that tall) the first daughters of this breeding would be born in '68 and wouldn't have their first calf until '70, which would be the second generation of this focus toward larger cattle. Those second generation heifers wouln't have their first calves (the third generation) until '72. The point I am trying to make is that it takes a long time, due to the generation intervals of cattle, to make a significant change in phenotype. Maybe I'm just being skeptical but I have a hard time believing that the Angus breed was able to change so much in the 70's and 80's without the influence of some dairy or Continental influence.

A good illustration of the changes in physical changes in cattle over time can be found at a:
https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historica ... etype.html

To add to my skepticism, over the years I have had different commercial producers comment that they occasionally get a horned or flowered calf out of their registered Angus bulls...yes, bulls registered with the American Angus Association. I apologize if this sounds like Angus bashing, because it isn't. In my opinion, Angus probably do more things right than any other breed, however I question if every Angus breeder in North America was able to stand firm to his commitment to breed purebred Angus cattle, when it would have been soooo easy to just add a bit of Brown Swiss, Holstein, Limousin, or Chi to some cows in order to get a jump ahead of the competition in the frame race of the 70's and 80's.

Something definately happened. Does it matter? Not to me - I don't run angus. But they changed and no explanation I have in all these years fits the change I see in angus.

People say it was breeding and breeders. Thousands of other breeders out there breeding every breed you can imagine and those breeds have not seen such a radical change - least the others look the same to me as they did back in the 60's for the most part. Structure and hip height is what makes the Chi rumor seem credible. Otherwise that rumor would have died way back.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

theres been changes in other breeds simmental, charolais, limo..

 

[backhoeboogie]

theres been changes in other breeds simmental, charolais, limo..

I was not around enough sims or limos, especially back in the 60's, to note anything.

I'd argue the chars. Birthing weight changes - you're absolutely right. But they look pretty much the same to me as they always have.

 

[TexasBred]

In the 60's the vast majority of Angus cattle in the US were small or relatively small framed. I find it interesting that in less than a ten years the Angus breed had significantly increased the frame size of a large percentage of the Angus cattle.

In 1960 the average size of a professional QB was about 6'2" and 200 lbs. and linemen weighed 240-250. Now a QB is 6'6" and 250 and the linemen are 300 and up. What happened??

 

[ALACOWMAN]

In the 60's the vast majority of Angus cattle in the US were small or relatively small framed. I find it interesting that in less than a ten years the Angus breed had significantly increased the frame size of a large percentage of the Angus cattle.

In 1960 the average size of a professional QB was about 6'2" and 200 lbs. and linemen weighed 240-250. Now a QB is 6'6" and 250 and the linemen are 300 and up. What happened??

$$$$$ the driving force,, course back then you had guys named BART ,,, JOE.... now its tyrrell shaniquah coontakenta :cowboy:

 

[TexasBred]

In the 60's the vast majority of Angus cattle in the US were small or relatively small framed. I find it interesting that in less than a ten years the Angus breed had significantly increased the frame size of a large percentage of the Angus cattle.

In 1960 the average size of a professional QB was about 6'2" and 200 lbs. and linemen weighed 240-250. Now a QB is 6'6" and 250 and the linemen are 300 and up. What happened??

$$$$$ the driving force,, course back then you had guys named BART ,,, JOE.... now its tyrrell shaniquah coontakenta :cowboy:

Hybrid Vigor? :lol2: