Probios

[jaydill]

Got a very growthy (height-wise) simbrah calf that just doesn't enough. I've got him on B12 and although it helped for a while, it doesn't seem to be helping now. I was wondering if anyone here has every used probios? The girl in the pen beside me uses it on her heifer and it seems to work real well...but then again the calf has angus in it so she's got the genes to be real wide. Just looking for some results of people who've used it on their cattle? (Show cattle, specifically)

 

[msscamp]

Got a very growthy (height-wise) simbrah calf that just doesn't enough. I've got him on B12 and although it helped for a while, it doesn't seem to be helping now. I was wondering if anyone here has every used probios? The girl in the pen beside me uses it on her heifer and it seems to work real well...but then again the calf has angus in it so she's got the genes to be real wide. Just looking for some results of people who've used it on their cattle? (Show cattle, specifically)

While we don't do show cattle, we have used Probios with good results (and we don't raise Angus). Probios is a means of replacing the good bacteria in an animals stomach that has been destroyed by antibiotics or illness.

 

[Scotty]

Elaberate on your question. Yes I use it on cattle that are new to my place. On cattle that are under stress or having a ration change. Even though I try not to change them so drastically it would matter. It is used for cattle that have an upset rumen. Meaning the bacteria that help digest feed stuffs are not the ones that are, or ones created by the animal to digest feed intaken. It helps create new ones. Its not an appetite stimulator, more like a digestive aid for new feed stuff.


Scotty

 

[jaydill]

Okay...I'm wanting to know if it will help him eat more. I'm not quite so sure that it's used only as a digestive aid because my teacher told me to use it to help get him eating. His rumen's working well...I mean, he's eating his hay. But he's 1055 pounds and only eating about seven scoops of feed (the standard scoop you can buy at feed stores) a day. Thanks msscamp...Scotty, got anymore information? I'm hopin for a lot of feedback.

 

[milkmaid]

Okay...I'm wanting to know if it will help him eat more. I'm not quite so sure that it's used only as a digestive aid because my teacher told me to use it to help get him eating. His rumen's working well...I mean, he's eating his hay. But he's 1055 pounds and only eating about seven scoops of feed (the standard scoop you can buy at feed stores) a day.

I'm not sure WHY it would make them eat more...I must be missing something here. Did your teacher tell you what the logic is behind this?

Exercise can help their appetite...cool weather...

What type of feed is he on and what's his daily ration in pounds - not scoops?

 

[jaydill]

I'm not sure WHY it would make them eat more...I must be missing something here. Did your teacher tell you what the logic is behind this?

Exercise can help their appetite...cool weather...

What type of feed is he on and what's his daily ration in pounds - not scoops?

Turn him out about every or every other night and walk every day. Can't cool the weather down.. live in Texas. I know it's not the feed because for a while I had him on B12 everyday and he was eatin like I dunno what. Then I ran out and it went back down, but now that I've started back up, my teacher told me not to give it everyday...so he's not eating as well. Pound wise it would probably be about seven pounds a day.

 

[harry]

Need to know feed intake in pounds not scoops,also what type of feed?

 

[jaydill]

And the feed is called HiPro.

 

[milkmaid]

Seven pounds per day isn't much. Most folks figure a 7 to 1 gain ratio - seven pounds of feed per one pound of gain, so you're only getting a 1lb/day gain off his current grain ration.

Are you feeding him free-choice grain and that's all he cleans up, or are you or limiting it? Is he penned by himself or with others?

I'm not familiar with that type of grain - what's in it? and protein/fat content?

Next obvious question would be what type of hay is he on and what type of minerals/salt block(s)?

 

[jaydill]

Seven pounds per day isn't much. Most folks figure a 7 to 1 gain ratio - seven pounds of feed per one pound of gain, so you're only getting a 1lb/day gain off his current grain ration.

Are you feeding him free-choice grain and that's all he cleans up, or are you or limiting it? Is he penned by himself or with others?

I'm not familiar with that type of grain - what's in it? and protein/fat content?

Next obvious question would be what type of hay is he on and what type of minerals/salt block(s)?

Yeah, seven's definitely not enough...which is why I'm trying to find a way to increase his intake. He doesn't get free-choice grain.. he gets 30 minutes twice a day to clean it up (although i'll stay longer if it looks like he'll eat more...only problem is he rarely even goes the whole 30 minutes) he's penned up by himself during the day and at night they're turned out for exercise. HiPro is a local thing...a Texas thing I'm thinking. He's on the finisher ration with 12% protein and 5% fat (that's crude). It's got corn, molasses(to keep the dust down and add a bit of flavor), cornseed.. grain, etc in it. It's really a great feed...all the others in our barn are on it and doing well on it. When he eats more, he does better on it.
He's on sudan hay...and I haven't got a block yet. Will a salt block help his appetite? He is a show calf, by the way.. to be taken to both the Fort Worth and Houston livestock shows.

 

[msscamp]

He needs to have access to salt and mineral both! I personally would forgo the salt block and mix the loose salt with the mineral at a rate of 1 part salt to 2 parts mineral.

 

[jaydill]

Most people in the barn aren't doing that which is why I haven't tapped that resource yet...because their calves are doing just fine. I'll try to stop by Wellsbrothers and pick up a couple blocks asap. Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Scotty]

He needs to have access to salt and mineral both!

Could not agree more. In this case as a show calve I would force feed him the salt and minerals by diguising them in the feed. This is how I feed my bulls. Just throw what the amount they need in the feed.


Scotty

 

[milkmaid]

Well...here's what I was told by a fellow in charge of a feedlot type operation when I was dealing with my show steer this past summer.

He said that I should be gradually increasing my steer's grain until it took him from one feeding to the next to clean it up. He used two terms - "wet bunk" and "dry bunk". If you fed in the morning, arrived back in the afternoon and the feeder/trough/bucket was dry and there was no sign of grain remaining, you upped the feed by a pound. Eventually (keeping in mind that you don't up the grain by more than a pound or two per week to allow the rumen time to adjust) he should be taking long enough to clean up the grain that there's still traces of grain and/or nose and tongue marks in the bucket. Hence the term "wet bunk". That's when you were feeding the right amount.

Now...I've had my calves and show steer up to grain at 2-2.5% of their body weight per day and still not had a "wet bunk". My show steer cleaned up everything within the hour or less - really liked his grain. So perhaps that won't apply to all calves, or maybe mine just needed to be grained at a higher percentage of body weight.

The point is that...you should let him have access to the grain all day. Not taking the feed away if he doesn't finish it in the allotted time frame. You're not trying to teach him to gorge himself to eat all the grain as quick as possible. I get the impression he's penned by himself, so there's no reason he can't spend all day working on the grain. He might be filling up on the hay and then he's not interested in the grain - or just plain doesn't care for grain. Some calves are like that. Try decreasing the amount of hay while increasing the amount of grain - slowly.

Make sense?

 

[jaydill]

Well...here's what I was told by a fellow in charge of a feedlot type operation when I was dealing with my show steer this past summer.

He said that I should be gradually increasing my steer's grain until it took him from one feeding to the next to clean it up. He used two terms - "wet bunk" and "dry bunk". If you fed in the morning, arrived back in the afternoon and the feeder/trough/bucket was dry and there was no sign of grain remaining, you upped the feed by a pound. Eventually (keeping in mind that you don't up the grain by more than a pound or two per week to allow the rumen time to adjust) he should be taking long enough to clean up the grain that there's still traces of grain and/or nose and tongue marks in the bucket. Hence the term "wet bunk". That's when you were feeding the right amount.

Now...I've had my calves and show steer up to grain at 2-2.5% of their body weight per day and still not had a "wet bunk". My show steer cleaned up everything within the hour or less - really liked his grain. So perhaps that won't apply to all calves, or maybe mine just needed to be grained at a higher percentage of body weight.

The point is that...you should let him have access to the grain all day. Not taking the feed away if he doesn't finish it in the allotted time frame. You're not trying to teach him to gorge himself to eat all the grain as quick as possible. I get the impression he's penned by himself, so there's no reason he can't spend all day working on the grain. He might be filling up on the hay and then he's not interested in the grain - or just plain doesn't care for grain. Some calves are like that. Try decreasing the amount of hay while increasing the amount of grain - slowly.

Make sense?

The reason our ag teachers don't allow us to just leave them free-choice to the feed is that then we can't monitor how much feed they are actually consuming. At this point, he isn't even making it to a "wet-bunck" with the four or so pounds I'm feeding him each feeding. He'll leave about a half about a half a scoop's worth of feed in the feeder and either lay down or walk to the back gate to be let out. I tried not letting him out when he did that, so he'd realize that when he ate all his feed he got let out, but if he didn't eat all his feed, he had to stay in...but no cigar. I tried adding a little sugar water to make the food more tasty but that also has not worked. It sounds kind of like the calves you've had have had healthy appetites...and in this case, I've got a calf that doesn't.

 

[ffamom]

One of our simbrah heifers is a picky eater. When she decides to watch her figure, we give her probias everyother day. She loves the taste so we have no problem giving it to her. When, she sees the caulking gun, she walks right up to be dosed. We buy probias from valley vet supply because it is a lot cheaper. Which number of hi pro are you using? Some already have probias in it. Our simbrahs do not like the 290 because of the higher corn content. We have much better weight gain when we supplement with barley. A Texas A & M vet recommend the barley in brahman based cattle. He claims they have a better conversion rate.

 

[milkmaid]

The reason our ag teachers don't allow us to just leave them free-choice to the feed is that then we can't monitor how much feed they are actually consuming. At this point, he isn't even making it to a "wet-bunck" with the four or so pounds I'm feeding him each feeding. He'll leave about a half about a half a scoop's worth of feed in the feeder and either lay down or walk to the back gate to be let out.

he's penned up by himself during the day and at night they're turned out for exercise.

OK, now if he's penned during the day and let out at night...surely you can leave feed during the day? To be honest, your ag teachers need to put their thinking caps on. First, each student should know what his/her steer is eating in pounds per day, not scoops. If you're dealing with pounds of grain then you know percentage of body weight...etc. Second, if you know what he gets in pounds per day, you weigh the feed before you put it in his bucket, weigh what's left at the next feeding, same for the next time - and you know exactly how much feed in pounds your steer is eating per 24 hour period. Simple math.

Free-choice doesn't mean you have to leave a 50lb bag poured in the feeder. Measure out your 4 pounds for the morning feeding, put it in his bucket, come back at the evening feeding and weigh what's left. Technically he should be eating at least 2% of his body weight in something. Grain and/or hay. So if he's not eating his grain you need to find out what and where he's getting the rest of his feed. How much hay are you feeding and are you giving him as much as he wants/will eat?

Not trying to put you down or anything like that. Just that your ag teachers' logic doesn't make sense to me right now and I'm trying to figure it out. ;-) So far I'm not overly impressed with them.

The next question - how closely do you have to adhere to the rules and/or advice set by the ag teachers? (That was worded wrong, LOL!) If it were me...and the steer was obviously healthy and/or you had him checked out OK, I'd go ahead and do whatever I had to do to get him eating - within the rules. If that means a vitamin B12 complex twice a day, fine. If it means changing the feed, fine. If that means I leave feed out all the time and keep him penned 24/7 except for walks, fine.

You may have to experiment a little to find out what it's going to take to get him eating again.

Or...just thought of this; sometimes they DO eat better with a companion. It's competition. I almost always keep a minimum of 2 'bovines' per pen except for special instances. Might experiment that way too. Even a small calf just to keep him company.

Oh, and the obvious - feeders, buckets, feed all clean?

 

[msscamp]

He's on sudan hay...and I haven't got a block yet.

It has been mentioned on these boards that sudan hay can have prussic acid and nitrates in it. If the hay your feeding has not been tested and contains these things, could that be a contributing factor to the calf not eating better than he is?

 

[Larry Sansom]

Cattle are "herd animals" - try putting is a "buddy" - the competition for feed will increase feed intake. A calf in a stall by himself is bored and will not eat as well as with several head. Also limit the hay intake - just this side of acidosis is area for maximum gain.

Probiotics - by what ever brand - are just to keep the "good bugs" of the rumen working - as opposed to antibiotics- which kill "bugs".

 

[Scotty]

If you are feeding a complete feed I would limit the feed also. Remember cattle are natural grazers and will prefer hay over grain. They will eat both when both are provided. What I am saying is too much hay will limit the grain intake. My opinion. My bulls I am growing to be breeders are given hay all the time. Grain in the AM and PM. About 12 lbs per. This is my little experement. I don't want them fat and to melt for my customers. You sound like you need your to grow a little faster. My remebrance of feeding show steers was to feed grain in the AM and PM. Watch to make sure they clean up all. What thye don't mix with some fresh if it is still good. I would prbly throw it out. Then give less to the amount you threw out. Next hay in the middle of the day if possible. This may be hard if you are at school or work. If you have time feed the grain and the hay after. The only thing about this is first in, first out.


Scotty