Polled Hereford Cattle Plan III – Expansion Phase

[I luv herfrds]

HS sometimes too much genetics in an animal is not a good thing. I saw a first year heifer that the breeder was worried about because she was as big as a 4 yo proven cow.
If they grow too quickly you can run into problems with the frame structure.
This heifer could throw such a big calf that it could ruin her.

We are happy at the weaning weight that we are at now. The next step in our plan is to add more muscle on the frame. Our cows are thin looking when you look at them head on, but look great from the side. Now we are going to introduce, slowly, wider bulls. We are watching the shoulder width to help prevent the calf from getting stuck. I hate pulling calves.
I will look at the EPD's but I also take them with a grain of salt.
I like seeing the actual weights. Then I can make a desicion on that bull.

OK I'm going to ask.
Is raising cattle something you always wanted to do or is this just a hobby? No offense intended. Just curious.

 

[Brandonm2]

I am not convinced that we WANT 825 pound A V E R A G E weaning weights.

An 825 pound 205 day old calf is too heavy to stocker, he probably is going to be docked (when finally finished) as a heavy, and his mama probably weighs in at 1650....on the low end. I am as impressed as the next guy when a calf weans at 850 and it speaks well for HIM as a growthy sire prospect; but I am not sure that a typical cow calf operation has the grass to wean that on a regular basis or if that theoretical cow herd would really be profitable out here in the real world.

Of course you are correct. I want 1000 pound weaning weights. Several of Remitall's blistering weights are in the 900s. :cboy: I don't see what I couldn't set 1000 as a goal, say in 20 years.

Set whatever goal you want to set. This business has room for a lot of genetic diversity; but I doubt than any of your 1000 pound calves would ever work for me if I planned on keeping heifers out of him.

 

[HerefordSire]

HS sometimes too much genetics in an animal is not a good thing.

I am not sure what you are referring to here.

I saw a first year heifer that the breeder was worried about because she was as big as a 4 yo proven cow.
If they grow too quickly you can run into problems with the frame structure.
This heifer could throw such a big calf that it could ruin her.

Did you write frame? Should I increase frame size to support 1000 pound weaning weights?

We are happy at the weaning weight that we are at now. The next step in our plan is to add more muscle on the frame.

Sounds very interesting. So tell me how you plan to do that? Maybe provide a real live example? Add muscle and keep the same weight? Maybe reduce fat? If you add muscle, what would you be reducing to keep the same weaning weight?

Our cows are thin looking when you look at them head on, but look great from the side. Now we are going to introduce, slowly, wider bulls. We are watching the shoulder width to help prevent the calf from getting stuck. I hate pulling calves.
I will look at the EPD's but I also take them with a grain of salt.
I like seeing the actual weights. Then I can make a desicion on that bull.

Why do you look at EPD numbers?

OK I'm going to ask.

Please fire away.

Is raising cattle something you always wanted to do or is this just a hobby? No offense intended. Just curious.

Neither. I purchased the land for an investment. Finally it dawned on me I should probably make a higher return on all the grass growing instead of just selling the grass like I originally did. I am turning the grass into beef now. The cattle was a no-brainer. The purebred idea took alot of guts. The ET took even more guts and the line breeding idea took even more guts. Thanks for asking

 

[HerefordSire]

Set whatever goal you want to set. This business has room for a lot of genetic diversity; but I doubt than any of your 1000 pound calves would ever work for me if I planned on keeping heifers out of him.



Please provide the type of animal you would buy from me if you were in the market.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Most of those really high weaning weight calves are going to come at the expense of frame size, BW, and most likely profitability over the long run. You are going to have to put a lot of input into your cattle, which I am sure you planned on. The only problem is that you won't have the following that Remitall has to recoup those high costs. I like the line breeding, however you are most likely inbreeding. You can get some good animals that way, but most likely half will need to be culled up front and then another half later. Remitall has spent years line breeding Keynote lines, now they are trying to bring in tenderness bulls like ranger. You are really going to make sure that your cows have really high IMF's and produce really high IMF's in order for your plan to work. Your current donors ratio's don't show that happening. However the EPD's show them better then most. It's possibly a good plan, could take a lot of work, but it sounds like you are prepared for that.

 

[I luv herfrds]

The concern is prolapsing, broken pelvis or torn inside and bleeding to death. Then the cow is no good to you except for slaughter. Never keep a prolapser they pass it along.

What is the time frame planned for those 1000# weaning weights? Example date of birth to weaning date. Ours March 1st to October 1st this year. Alot of guys calve in January and wean in November. We hate digging calves out of snow banks so we don't do it. Slid down a hill with a load of heifers, so they go to auction quickly to avoid the snow storms.
We like getting the calf off at a reasonable time frame so the cow does not go down hill while trying to raise one and grow the other.
Do you plan on creep feeding? Hormone implants? How will yours be classified? Ours are Natural, no hormones, no creep feed and just the first booster of shots. They are started on hay about a month before weaning. Less bawling.

We are bringing in different genetics from different breeders. We look at their herds and how they look and grow.
When we look at what we had and what we have now we are very happy. Will bringing in some better bulls increase the weaning weight? Most definately. We also look at the pasture and the possiblity of another drought. So weaning weights will vary from year to year. We never expect the same weight each year.

I look at EPD's to give me an idea of how that bull MIGHT preform. I never get a bull that has a Milk less then a 20 and I have a few more things I nitpick at on the EPD.

 

[HerefordSire]

Most of those really high weaning weight calves are going to come at the expense of frame size, BW, and most likely profitability over the long run.

I tend to agree with you as you are experienced and I am not, as you well know. What do you think should be the best target weaning weight for a registered Polled Hereford to be for an outcross and an incross while staying within the breed?

You are going to have to put a lot of input into your cattle, which I am sure you planned on.

Gee....I already am inputting alot. :cboy:

The only problem is that you won't have the following that Remitall has to recoup those high costs.

Please don't take this the wrong way...I may have more of a following. Don't underestimate me.

I like the line breeding, however you are most likely inbreeding.

...And you are also. I am focusing on more of inbreeding depression, inbreeding depression, inbreeding explosion.

You can get some good animals that way, but most likely half will need to be culled up front and then another half later.

In this thread I have projected a first generation 40% failure rate. Should I increase the rate to 50%? The bulls get culled and the females become recipients. I believe this should be a satifactory initial percentage to reach my unpublished underlying goals.

Remitall has spent years line breeding Keynote lines, now they are trying to bring in tenderness bulls like ranger.

Yeah, I noticed that. They are also flirting with Feltons 517 but you failed to mention 517. May I ask you why you failed to mention Remitall using 517 all of the sudden?

You are really going to make sure that your cows have really high IMF's and produce really high IMF's in order for your plan to work.

In the spirit of learning, I am curious why you made that comment. I indend to address the IMF quotient. Do you think I am not based upon the information I have provided?

Your current donors ratio's don't show that happening.

Are you basing the IMF projections of what I have published thus far based upon the donor marbeling ratios, or could there be futher insight on your part?

However the EPD's show them better then most. It's possibly a good plan, could take a lot of work, but it sounds like you are prepared for that.

Thank you OakCreekFarms for your help. What are the strengths of the plan? I intend to modify the plan ASAP very much and I need your help, if you don't mind.

 

[HerefordSire]

The concern is prolapsing, broken pelvis or torn inside and bleeding to death. Then the cow is no good to you except for slaughter. Never keep a prolapser they pass it along.

So are you implying you place a weaning weight cap to prevent the items you listed above?

What is the time frame planned for those 1000# weaning weights? Example date of birth to weaning date.

I have not decided yet as it is really not on my priority list. For now, I cannot even see it.

Ours March 1st to October 1st this year. Alot of guys calve in January and wean in November. We hate digging calves out of snow banks so we don't do it. Slid down a hill with a load of heifers, so they go to auction quickly to avoid the snow storms.
We like getting the calf off at a reasonable time frame so the cow does not go down hill while trying to raise one and grow the other.

Very interesting. Thank-you for sharing that with me.

Do you plan on creep feeding?

Strategic creep feeding, yes. General creep feeding, no

Hormone implants?

Negative as I am keeping all females for reproductive purposes either naturally or as a recipient.

How will yours be classified?

Whatever it takes for them to reproduce fastest with primary focus on medical health. If I can discern value during my plan progress, the creep program commences.

Ours are Natural, no hormones, no creep feed and just the first booster of shots. They are started on hay about a month before weaning. Less bawling.

There is a lot to be said for being a low cost producer. There are many more options one can pursue with lower overhead.

We are bringing in different genetics from different breeders.

What kind of breeders, for example?

We look at their herds and how they look and grow.

You are a touchy, feely, etc., breeder eh? Feel like sharing a few pointers? :cboy:

When we look at what we had and what we have now we are very happy. Will bringing in some better bulls increase the weaning weight? Most definately. We also look at the pasture and the possiblity of another drought. So weaning weights will vary from year to year. We never expect the same weight each year.

Interesting. We went through a drought for the last two years and now we are finally getting rain. It sure is hard getting the cows through the winter (with absolutely no experience) after a drought and not having to sell ANY!

I look at EPD's to give me an idea of how that bull MIGHT preform. I never get a bull that has a Milk less then a 20 and I have a few more things I nitpick at on the EPD.

Please expand your thinking on the bull MM being over 20. What are the few other things, for example?

 

[I luv herfrds]

We ran into a gene that caused all of the heifers of that blood line to prolapse.
We like a nice low weight calf for our heifers, if we can find it about 80# or less and hopfully not over 85#. We had a 110# bull calf born one year and it caused the cow to prolapse, never got him to market lighting hit him one night.
We try to keep the main herd birth weights under 95#, but you can not always avoid it. In the last couple of years we have had about 4 calves weight in about 100# or more.

Right now we have a list of good breeders we are planning on going to to get bulls. Probably over the next several years.
Our goal is to get our cattle to look as good as one herd we saw, Largants and Sons outside of Kaycee Wyoming.
http://www.largantsandsons.com
Marvin Feddes, Mark Cooper, Jack Holden, and others we are planning on buying from, there are so many with really good bulls that it is hard to choose.

In our drought of '01 alot of guys around us had to ship half to their whole herd due to lack of grass. We run only 70 head and only had to ship 7 cows. We do not stock our place to the max, that is one of the reasons we did not lose the whole herd that year. We ran straw thru the grinder with what bit of grain we had and they ate it.

I look at the yearling projections on the EPD and compare them to the other bulls we are looking at at the time.
I'm not a math genius so it is hard for me to explain what I see when I look at the EPD numbers. Alot of guys understand every little point, but for some reason I look at them and see them differently. My husband trusts that weird reading I get and we go with it. It's not broke so we don't fix it.
The reason I really look at the milk anymore is we had a heifer that grew great, looked like a great mother, nice bag, red color, and empty bag. She never brought back a live calf in the fall the 2 years we had her. Mother was a great milker.

 

[CPL]

HS- I like your plan, I really do. I think using 3008 and Online could give you excellent genetics. However, as you know, you'll probably have alot of misfits. #1 thing in line breeding is to cull hard. What traits are you wanting to get from 3008 and Online? Find those and then all that don't fit cull.

The one thing I'm concerned about with the plan is that it doesn't look like it's one to last for a while. Sure a couple generations, but after 5-10 everything in your herd will be so closely related. I like the crosses of 3008 genetics to Online, but what will be done with those calves? Right now I don't see how it will continue on.

Good Luck, looks like it could work if you keep your mind to it (which I think you will).

 

[handydandy]

The purebred idea took alot of guts. The ET took even more guts and the line breeding idea took even more guts. Thanks for asking[/i]

Wow You have lots of guts!!!!!!!!!!1 :roll:

 

[MY]

The one thing I'm concerned about with the plan is that it doesn't look like it's one to last for a while. Sure a couple generations, but after 5-10 everything in your herd will be so closely related.

The Lents' Anxiety 4th herd has been closed for 126 years. It surely can be done!

 

[HerefordSire]

I noticed a couple of improvements and errors I made. Please inspect these and let me know some suggestions to improve what I have. I didn't want to edit the original document so everyone interested could see the changes.



CURVE BENDER breeding plans during five year female retention, so let us get technical and here is the idea. I encourage all interested to make suggestions:

(1) Line A -- inbreeding depression -- line breed for YW and REA via Remitall progeny
(2) Line B -- inbreeding depression -- line breed for BW, YW, and IMF via 3008 progeny
(3) Line C -- inbreeding outcross explosion -- Cross the two lines A and B above for explosive EPDs
(4) During each of the three phases listed above, incorporate a breeding system as defined below (another breeder here with an excellent reputation has provided valuable direction. I will mention his/her name is he/she provides permission).

BREEDING SYSTEM:

Year 1, or first generation (inbreeding depression):
Break all the projected calves into ten groups. For simplicity and as an example, let us say 100 calves were produced after year one so we divide each group of future progeny into ten regardless of sex.

1 -- the highest actual yearling weights (YW-1)
2 -- the next highest actual yearling weights (YW-2)
3 -- the lowest actual birth weights (BW-1)
4 -- the next lowest actual birth weights (BW-2)

5 and 6 are a little different as they are from different lines.

LINE A:
5 -- the highest actual rib-eye area (REA-1)
6 -- the next highest actual rib-eye area (REA-2)

LINE B:
5 -- the highest actual marbling (IMF-1)
6 -- the next highest actual marbling (IMF-2)

7 -- CULL males, females become recipients
8 -- CULL males, females become recipients
9 -- CULL males, females become recipients
10 -- CULL males, females become recipients

Year 3, or second generation (inbreeding depression):

1 -- Cross YW-1 with BW-1
2 -- Cross YW-2 with BW-2
3 -- Cross REA-1 with IMF-1
4 -- Cross REA-2 with IMF-2

Year 5, or third generation (inbreeding outcross explosion) (cross multiply the third generation):

1 – Cross half of Year 3 first group with half of Year 3 third group
2 – Cross half of Year 3 second group with half of Year 3 fourth group
3 – Cross half of Year 3 first group with half of Year 3 fourth group
4 – Cross half of Year 3 second group with half of Year 3 third group

LINE A defined:
Flush four registered Polled Hereford RRH Mr. Felt 3008 daughters this coming winter (one is deceased due to a freak accident but was included last flushing round which generated 127 embryos). Each 3008 daughter ALSO traces to Feltons 517 on the dam's side at least once and a couple trace twice for a total of two or three times. Due to space available I choose not to attempt to illustrate this lineage but please keep it in mind as it is very important (Prospector 7558).

Purchase flushing semen from the following nine Polled Hereford bulls which are also sons of RRH Mr. Felt 3008:

By the way, this is a link to 3008:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 5A26242526

Here are 3008 sons that I expect to purchase semen. The amount per straw is listed in the first column. I will need at least four straws per flush for a total of 12 flushes:

$30 -- KCF BENNETT 3008 M326
$15 -- CMF RF GENETIC PHASE
$20 -- ARF NED-LEG-3008-ET
$25 -- SCHU-LAR 5N OF 9L 3008
$35 -- HUTH 17Y PROSPECTOR J013
$20 -- HUTH PROSPECTOR K085
$20 -- HUTH PS PROSPECTOR M015
$20 -- DAN 3008 DANIEL 2E 3N
$25 -- TRM HV 334 HIGH ENERGY 3228

This is an example of EPD numbers for HUTH PROSPECTOR K085 and SCHU-LAR 5N OF 9L 3008 listed above and immediately below are a couple of my 3008 daughter donors:

CE…BW…WW…YW…MM…MG…CEM…SC…FAT…REA…IMF…BMI…CEZ…BII…CHB
2.6...1.8…56…100…21…49…..1.5…1.3….008….03…..19…..22…..17….19..…29
3.9….1.2…54….93…14…41..…6.2…1.8….013….22..…39..…34..…22….30..…33
5.8...0.8…49….85…16…40…..6.1…1.9…-.012….12…..18…..33…..24….30..…28
4.2….2.3…53….86…21…47..…2.5…1.7….000…-02..…18..…28..…20….25..…27

Flush my four 3008 daughters three times this coming winter for a total of twelve flushes. Last time they were flushed recently they produced 127 embryos for an average of 8.5 embryos per flush for fifteen flushes. Therefore, the projected total embryo count this go around is 8.5 * 12 = 102. Total embryo inventory count is projected to be 102 + 87 = 189.

Each conception in year one, or the first generation, will trace to 3008 two times and will look like the following:

…………………………………………………………….FELTONS 517
……………………………………………..RRH MR FELT 3008
…………………………………………………………….RRH MS VICT 6191
………………….One bull above-----------------
……………………………………………………………. See grand sire above through registry
……………………………………………..See dam above through registry
……………………………………………………………. See grand dam above through registry
…2X - MY NEW CALF -------
…………………………………………………………….FELTONS 517
……………………………………………..RRH MR FELT 3008
…………………………………………………………….RRH MS VICT 6191
………………….One of my donors-------------
……………………………………………………………. One of my donor's grand sire (traces to 517)
……………………………………………..One of my donor's dam
……………………………………………………………. One of my donor's grand dam (traces to 517)


Each conception in year three, or the second generation, will trace to 3008 four times and will look like the following:

……………………………………………………………. RRH MR FELT 3008
……………………………………………..One bull above
……………………………………………………………. See dam above through registry
………………….SEE 2X BULL CALF ABOVE-----------------
……………………………………………………………. RRH MR FELT 3008
…………………………………………….. One of my donors
……………………………………………………………. One of my donor's dam (traces to 517)
…4X - MY NEW CALF -------
……………………………………………………………. RRH MR FELT 3008
…………………………………………….. One bull above
……………………………………………………………. See dam above through registry
…………………. SEE 2X HEIFER CALF ABOVE -------------
……………………………………………………………. RRH MR FELT 3008
…………………………………………….. One of my donors
……………………………………………………………. One of my donor's dam (traces to 517)

LINE B defined:

Of the 127 embryos already generated 40 were implanted in recipients. The break down of transplants is as follows:

16 -- Remitall Online 122L
08 -- Remitall LAGRD Pounder ET 204P
04 -- Remitall Highway 157H
08 -- Remitall Foundation 46F
04 -- RU Duster 60D

The following are projection EPD numbers of Remitall Online 122L followed by Remitall Highway and a couple of my 3008 donors

..CE…BW…WW…YW…MM…MG…CEM…SC…FAT…REA…IMF…BMI…CEZ…BII…CHB
.0.0...3.9…63…108…22…53…..5.8…1.5….-006….39…..07…..24…..17….20..…31
-1.6….5.1…66…115…26…59..…0.0…1.2…-.009….29..…06..…17..…10….14..…31

The same exact line breeding system will occur as above with the existing transplants except the bulls listed above will be used and the target trace count will be a little different as I don't own Remitall (Catalina 24H) donors (YET). However, the 3008 trace count will increase as the bulls listed above will be combined with the 3008 daughters. For example, Online son and an Online daughter, or a Pounder son and a Pounder daughter, or an Online son and a Pounder daughter, or a Pounder son and an Online daugher, could be mated together during year three. One of the objectives here will be to fine tune the YW and REA. The difference here from LINE A above will be to cultivate a high REA while increasing the trace counts to Catalina 24H which is Online's and Pounder's dam. The ultimate goal will be to trace to Catalina at least four times and 3008 six times in one animal (see the very bottom pedigree).

The Remitall LAGRD Pounder ET 204P and Remitall Online 122L listed below in the pedigree projection have the same dam Remitall Catalina 24H.

………………………………………………………Remitall LAGRD Pounder ET 204P
…………………………………………….. 1X BULL CALF
………………………………………………………One of my donors
………………….2X BULL CALF --------------------
………………………………………………………Remitall LAGRD Pounder ET 204P
…………………………………………….. 1X HEIFER CALF
………………………………………………………One of my donors
…4X - MY NEW CALF -------
………………………………………………………Remitall Online 122
…………………………………………….. 1X BULL CALF
………………………………………………………One of my donors
………………….2X HEIFER CALF -----------------
………………………………………………………Remitall Online 122
…………………………………………….. 1X HEIFER CALF
………………………………………………………One of my donors

Each conception in year five, or the third generation, will trace to 3008 six times and Catalina four times and will look like the following:

……………………………………..……SEE 1X BULL CALF ABOVE
……………………………….. 2X BULL CALF
………………………………………SEE 1X HEIFER CALF ABOVE
………....4X 3008 BULL CALF --------------
………………………………………..… SEE 1X BULL CALF ABOVE
………………………………….2X HEIFER CALF
…………………………………………… SEE 1X HEIFER CALF ABOVE
…4X-6X - MY NEW CALF -------
…………………………………………… SEE 1X BULL CALF ABOVE
………………………………….2X BULL CALF
…………………………………………… SEE 1X HEIFER CALF ABOVE
….......2X 3008 - 4X CATALINA 24H HEIFER CALF ----
……………………………………..…… SEE 1X BULL CALF ABOVE
……………………………….. 2X HEIFER CALF
…………………………………………… SEE 1X HEIFER CALF ABOVE

 

[HerefordSire]

We ran into a gene that caused all of the heifers of that blood line to prolapse.

Which animal was the original culprit?

We like a nice low weight calf for our heifers, if we can find it about 80# or less and hopfully not over 85#. We had a 110# bull calf born one year and it caused the cow to prolapse, never got him to market lighting hit him one night.
We try to keep the main herd birth weights under 95#, but you can not always avoid it. In the last couple of years we have had about 4 calves weight in about 100# or more.

Did you make more money on the four hundred pound calves than the others not counting deaths?

Right now we have a list of good breeders we are planning on going to to get bulls. Probably over the next several years.
Our goal is to get our cattle to look as good as one herd we saw, Largants and Sons outside of Kaycee Wyoming.
http://www.largantsandsons.com
Marvin Feddes, Mark Cooper, Jack Holden, and others we are planning on buying from, there are so many with really good bulls that it is hard to choose.

How far are they away from you? How many miles radius do you shop for bulls? Are you close to Canada?

In our drought of '01 alot of guys around us had to ship half to their whole herd due to lack of grass. We run only 70 head and only had to ship 7 cows. We do not stock our place to the max, that is one of the reasons we did not lose the whole herd that year. We ran straw thru the grinder with what bit of grain we had and they ate it.

I know how you must have felt. It is a bad feeling when I get off work and it is dark and 100 animals start bellowing for feed …and supplies are running low…and the nerves start jumping, etc. You know the sound.

I look at the yearling projections on the EPD and compare them to the other bulls we are looking at at the time.

Why do you compare yearling weight EPD numbers?

I'm not a math genius so it is hard for me to explain what I see when I look at the EPD numbers.

It sounds like you sense value, relatively speaking. Is this correct?

Alot of guys understand every little point, but for some reason I look at them and see them differently. My husband trusts that weird reading I get and we go with it. It's not broke so we don't fix it.

What do you think of these two bulls and one cow?

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 3&9=5B5F52

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 6&9=5B5F50

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 6&9=5B5F5A

The reason I really look at the milk anymore is we had a heifer that grew great, looked like a great mother, nice bag, red color, and empty bag. She never brought back a live calf in the fall the 2 years we had her. Mother was a great milker.

Why the 20? Her mother had under a 20 MM EPD?

 

[HerefordSire]

HS- I like your plan, I really do.

Thank-you very much!

I think using 3008 and Online could give you excellent genetics. However, as you know, you'll probably have alot of misfits. #1 thing in line breeding is to cull hard. What traits are you wanting to get from 3008 and Online? Find those and then all that don't fit cull.

I think I need some pointers on culling in more ways than one. For example, say I am after high REA and one animal with high REA has 50% pigment and the one with low REA has 100% pigment. Which one would you cull?

3008: BW, YW, IMF
Online: YW, REA

The one thing I'm concerned about with the plan is that it doesn't look like it's one to last for a while. Sure a couple generations, but after 5-10 everything in your herd will be so closely related. I like the crosses of 3008 genetics to Online, but what will be done with those calves? Right now I don't see how it will continue on.

The idea is to create unique and relatively hard acquire gene combinations and follow up with inbreeding depression for several generations after the initial crosses. In other words, I plan on weakening the numbers in exchange for consistency. However, the weakened numbers should be much higher than average in the breed. In later crosses of principal lines, after I have bred in consistent progeny, I hope to cross the principal lines for the purpose of the increasing the probability that the resulting progeny outperform their ancestors. In this inbred hetero mating, I hope to shatter AHA records and then begin to market inner bull semen, not outer bull semen. I have yet to describe the plan after five years, and if you study the plan very closely, you may begin to wonder about competition.

Good Luck, looks like it could work if you keep your mind to it (which I think you will).

I appreciate your thought sharing.

 

[MY]

I think I need some pointers on culling in more ways than one. For example, say I am after high REA and one animal with high REA has 50% pigment and the one with low REA has 100% pigment. Which one would you cull?

FWIW......Animals at either the highest or lowest end of a bloodline rarely produce equals of themselves consistently. Rather, they tend to produce the average of their line due to a phenomenon known as filial degeneration.

The high REA animal will probably not produce outstanding rib eye with great regularity, and neither will the low pigment bull produce poor pigment if the average of your breeding program is solid. Focusing on the elite animals within a herd should over a period of time increase the overall standards of a breeding program, but in my experience doing a lot of inbreeding in other disciplines, it just doesn't work out that way. Sometimes the most prepotent producers are rather poor specimen themselves, yet their superior offspring are still blessed with the same ability to produce consistently towards the higher end of the line. This is the beauty of an inbred program, the fact that you can pretty much use any individual and get a good result once the genetics are somewhat stabalized. In my estimation, even the culls from such a program have more genetic value than the elite animals from some scatterbred herd. Therefore, I don't believe either of your examples above should be culled until they prove that they cannot produce high end offspring. The brood pen is really the test of an inbred bloodline every bit as much as indivdual perfomance or conformation. Clearly there are some major faults that cannot be tolerated. In the first 3 or 4 generations the obvious severe faults that manifest themselves must be culled out. Then, without introduction of new genetics you will not see those problems again as they have been aboslutely eliminated from your line through proper selection. Going forward you should see minor faults, but unless you inbreed directly on the animal with said faults, you will not see those become the norm. In a program using hetrosis with every mating, neither major nor minor faults are eliminated, but just swept under the rug so to speak.

I know many here will disagree, but few to none of those who are disagreeable have ever spent decades doing any inbreeding. I think you are on the right track and you have a very well thought out plan. If I ever went purebred, my approach would differ from yours in that I would seek out the cleanest genetics possible on the front end. By clean I mean those that are already tightly bred, as you will be decades ahead. The great breeder Dr. Leon F. Whitney stated that a man's lifetime is really too short to make a significant impact in any breeding program. Starting with a bloodline that is already carrying a high coeffcient of inbreeding would be where I would start as it would save a lot of time and allow me to make that much more of a contribution with the time I had to be involved.

 

[HerefordSire]

FWIW......Animals at either the highest or lowest end of a bloodline rarely produce equals of themselves consistently. Rather, they tend to produce the average of their line due to a phenomenon known as filial degeneration.

The high REA animal will probably not produce outstanding rib eye with great regularity, and neither will the low pigment bull produce poor pigment if the average of your breeding program is solid. Focusing on the elite animals within a herd should over a period of time increase the overall standards of a breeding program, but in my experience doing a lot of inbreeding in other disciplines, it just doesn't work out that way. Sometimes the most prepotent producers are rather poor specimen themselves, yet their superior offspring are still blessed with the same ability to produce consistently towards the higher end of the line. This is the beauty of an inbred program, the fact that you can pretty much use any individual and get a good result once the genetics are somewhat stabalized. In my estimation, even the culls from such a program have more genetic value than the elite animals from some scatterbred herd. Therefore, I don't believe either of your examples above should be culled until they prove that they cannot produce high end offspring. The brood pen is really the test of an inbred bloodline every bit as much as indivdual perfomance or conformation. Clearly there are some major faults that cannot be tolerated. In the first 3 or 4 generations the obvious severe faults that manifest themselves must be culled out. Then, without introduction of new genetics you will not see those problems again as they have been aboslutely eliminated from your line through proper selection. Going forward you should see minor faults, but unless you inbreed directly on the animal with said faults, you will not see those become the norm. In a program using hetrosis with every mating, neither major nor minor faults are eliminated, but just swept under the rug so to speak.

I know many here will disagree, but few to none of those who are disagreeable have ever spent decades doing any inbreeding. I think you are on the right track and you have a very well thought out plan. If I ever went purebred, my approach would differ from yours in that I would seek out the cleanest genetics possible on the front end. By clean I mean those that are already tightly bred, as you will be decades ahead. The great breeder Dr. Leon F. Whitney stated that a man's lifetime is really too short to make a significant impact in any breeding program. Starting with a bloodline that is already carrying a high coeffcient of inbreeding would be where I would start as it would save a lot of time and allow me to make that much more of a contribution with the time I had to be involved.

That is some good juice for my palate. :cboy:

While I am preparing a well thought out reply, please consider the following about a core of my projected breeding program:

http://www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNHWEB11.HTM

 

[HerefordSire]

FWIW......Animals at either the highest or lowest end of a bloodline rarely produce equals of themselves consistently. Rather, they tend to produce the average of their line due to a phenomenon known as filial degeneration.

Maybe we can retire by buying culls of excellent bloodlines. I researched filial degeneration a tad, I what I have realized in thinking about this concept in the context of line breeding, ….. is if I use inexpensive initial seed stock, their progeny should revert to the mean and the odds of me breeding a standout are very low but the cull factor should also be low. On the other hand, if I use expensive initial seed stock, their progeny should also revert to the mean and the odds of me breeding a standout are higher as long as the majority of lower performing animals are culled.

The high REA animal will probably not produce outstanding rib eye with great regularity, and neither will the low pigment bull produce poor pigment if the average of your breeding program is solid. Focusing on the elite animals within a herd should over a period of time increase the overall standards of a breeding program, but in my experience doing a lot of inbreeding in other disciplines, it just doesn't work out that way. Sometimes the most prepotent producers are rather poor specimen themselves, yet their superior offspring are still blessed with the same ability to produce consistently towards the higher end of the line. This is the beauty of an inbred program, the fact that you can pretty much use any individual and get a good result once the genetics are somewhat stabalized. In my estimation, even the culls from such a program have more genetic value than the elite animals from some scatterbred herd. Therefore, I don't believe either of your examples above should be culled until they prove that they cannot produce high end offspring.

Very interesting indeed. I will plan to defer culling procedures toward later years in the hopes that a line bred marginal animal can still produce a star though its progeny (of course depending on your reply and further research into the matter). The real question may be …can the marginal animal produce pre-potent progeny greater than the prior most superior anima in the entire herd (the best performing animal so far)? I would think it is possible, but the odds would be drastically reduced relative to focusing on the higher level animals.

The brood pen is really the test of an inbred bloodline every bit as much as indivdual perfomance or conformation. Clearly there are some major faults that cannot be tolerated. In the first 3 or 4 generations the obvious severe faults that manifest themselves must be culled out. Then, without introduction of new genetics you will not see those problems again as they have been aboslutely eliminated from your line through proper selection. Going forward you should see minor faults, but unless you inbreed directly on the animal with said faults, you will not see those become the norm. In a program using hetrosis with every mating, neither major nor minor faults are eliminated, but just swept under the rug so to speak.

I understand this perfectly which may mean that the others bullets you write about….I need to perform more research…..

I know many here will disagree, but few to none of those who are disagreeable have ever spent decades doing any inbreeding. I think you are on the right track and you have a very well thought out plan. If I ever went purebred, my approach would differ from yours in that I would seek out the cleanest genetics possible on the front end. By clean I mean those that are already tightly bred, as you will be decades ahead. The great breeder Dr. Leon F. Whitney stated that a man's lifetime is really too short to make a significant impact in any breeding program. Starting with a bloodline that is already carrying a high coeffcient of inbreeding would be where I would start as it would save a lot of time and allow me to make that much more of a contribution with the time I had to be involved.

I was under the impression I was already using a tightly inbred lines…but after considering your wording closely, I want to get tighter than my original thinking. If I focus on Felton's 517 or maybe MSU Prospector 508 instead of 3008, I could reduce the variability somewhat in which you refer in exchange for the competition being fiercer. I will also focus on finding a higher inbreeding coefficient as I do want to my an ground shaking impact.

I hope you stick around awhile and continue to contribute as I value your experience very much.

 

[I luv herfrds]

The prolapse came out on the dams side but just last year we had a couple prolapse and we traced it back to the sire.

No we did not make money on the 400# calves. We were getting $.60 a lb for them. Last year we got $1.24 a lb for our steers.

Largants are about 500-700 miles away.
Cooper is about 250 miles, same with Feddes. Holden is about 80-100 miles away.
We are probably about 175 miles from Canada.

I really like Remital. I liked his color, length, thickness and his EPD's. The second bull was just a little too compacted, other then that he was a really good looking bull. Reading the cows EPD's gave me a picture of a nice cow that could raise a very gooid size calf. I liked all three. What can I say.

The 20 is just a rule of thumb anymore. When you are breeding a bull to a cow and that cow raises a so-so calf you want to improve the milk and growth. We have had some cows raise theses so-so calves and by looking for that number 20 I know we are going to increase the milk ratio in our replacement heifers.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

The bad with a inbred program is that one bad breeding choice will leave you bankrupt in about 3 years.