Picking a replacement bull from your own herd.

[smartin0022]

What

What are the top goals for your herd?

I'd like to produce perfect confirmation and phenotype. I want great udders and above all else gentle creatures that don't have high heads or stand 10 acres away walking the fence always looking at ya. I sell to small farms mostly people who have under 30 head and they are alot of times older folks or newbies. I'm using AI on the cows he's just for cleanup. His daddy was a Flush bull out of resource and a Blackcap cow. He's bred real nice. Has everything I'm looking for in a young bull square. Deep enough, clean fronted, good feet, enough leg to get the job done. Most of all he doesn't swing his head or charge you!

 

[Ebenezer]

As I see it the problem with selecting a bull from within your own herd is the most one can hope for is maintaining a status quo
and forfeiting the probability of improvement. The caveat would be having a herd large enough to have a gene pool to avoid the
possibility of a recessive trait. Yes it is possible to get a very good looking bull calf from a small herd but that does not imply it
will have the ability to pass those traits to its own progeny. (MPOV)

"...maintaining a status quo
and forfeiting the probability of improvement." As if all AI bulls, many unproven or lightly proven, are really the top of the food chain? AI companies go through them like toilet paper. Likely 1 in 1000 is a real "improver" without also being a problem supplier. There is so much focus on bulls that few think really hard about the cows.

 

[simme]

"As I see it the problem with selecting a bull from within your own herd is the most one can hope for is maintaining a status quo and forfeiting the probability of improvement."

I will offer an alternate view. I think the majority of progeny will mimic the "worth" of the sire and dam average. But there are a few that under perform and a few that over perform. Selection of the over performers for use of a bull or replacement makes genetic progress in a herd. Otherwise, how do the "best of the best" herds make genetic progress? You know - the places that people "should" purchase their herd bulls from? Where do they get their bulls? I think it is selection of that small percentage that over perform - either from their herd or from another herd.

The speed at which progress can be made depends on the degree of over performance of a bull compared to the cows in your herd. Some herds can make quicker progress with a top sire - because they have farther to go. Progress in a "best of the best" herd has to come slower because they are already closer to the top.

The issue is in selection of the "over performers". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and often people get led astray by the first impression. Using over performing bulls from your herd tends to automatically select for traits that work in your environment and management. Using high performing bulls from outside of your herd may be best, but that selects for performance based on the environment and management of the herd the bull came from. I think that is an important issue. But I believe you can make progress using home grown bulls or outside purchased bulls. If you can decide what "progress" means for your needs and select on that basis.

Lots of people still buy a bull that has chased a feed wagon. Cause he looks good.

 

[smartin0022]

"As I see it the problem with selecting a bull from within your own herd is the most one can hope for is maintaining a status quo and forfeiting the probability of improvement."

I will offer an alternate view. I think the majority of progeny will mimic the "worth" of the sire and dam average. But there are a few that under perform and a few that over perform. Selection of the over performers for use of a bull or replacement makes genetic progress in a herd. Otherwise, how do the "best of the best" herds make genetic progress? You know - the places that people "should" purchase their herd bulls from? Where do they get their bulls? I think it is selection of that small percentage that over perform - either from their herd or from another herd.

The speed at which progress can be made depends on the degree of over performance of a bull compared to the cows in your herd. Some herds can make quicker progress with a top sire - because they have farther to go. Progress in a "best of the best" herd has to come slower because they are already closer to the top.

The issue is in selection of the "over performers". Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and often people get led astray by the first impression. Using over performing bulls from your herd tends to automatically select for traits that work in your environment and management. Using high performing bulls from outside of your herd may be best, but that selects for performance based on the environment and management of the herd the bull came from. I think that is an important issue. But I believe you can make progress using home grown bulls or outside purchased bulls. If you can decide what "progress" means for your needs and select on that basis.

Lots of people still buy a bull that has chased a feed wagon. Cause he looks good.

I do feed DDG but only about 4 lbs a day per head during the winter. The Bull I kept is on feed and good hay but I'm not pushing him he's only 10 months old. I like your philosophy and agree . I'm in fescue country all they get all spring summer and fall is grass and breeders choice mineral with 400,000 vitamin A. These cattle have to be able to survive on fescue here. I've seen alot of producers i know buying bulls from Indiana and other states that turn into skeletons with skin once they hit the pasture. I culled 9 cows that underperformed last year and I'm culling 3 this spring. I'm trying to find the perfect fit for my environment and for me it looks like local cattle are better adapted for my needs. I bought some 14 yearlings for $1,000 a head that out performed some yearlings I paid $1500 a head for. I try to sell $1500 yearlings that perform like the majority of the majority of those $1,000 yearlings. I'm still learning everyday, I had my own herd of 5 angus at age 12(FSA youth loan program) and continued from there. I'm now 34 and still haven't got it perfect but it's gotten alot better. Quality over quantity is my main goal at this time.

 

[Rmc]

As I see it the problem with selecting a bull from within your own herd is the most one can hope for is maintaining a status quo
and forfeiting the probability of improvement. The caveat would be having a herd large enough to have a gene pool to avoid the
possibility of a recessive trait.

many desirable traits are recessive or accumulative in nature . So making recessive traits homozygous is not necessarily a bad thing.
It is also a way to identify undesirable recessive or accumulative traits in your herd and remove them.

 

[Dave]

When ever I see comments about home raised bulls it reminds me of a college neighbor. Four of us took a weekend road trip to his parents ranch to help at a branding. That was in the spring of 1970. I remember his father bragging that they hadn't imported any cattle to their ranch since 1911. I remember as an ag student thinking that isn't a very good way to improve your cattle.

This ranch had a couple thousand mother cows and owned or controlled hundreds of thousands of acres. Maybe a million acres+. I had a farm management class with this guy. He brought in a county map that he color coded the sections. What his father owned, his uncle, their forest circus grazing permits, and BLM permits all different colors. There was more colored that blank. And this is not a small county.

What grandpa and great grandpa had built because they were very progressive and far sighted for their time stopped. My friend's dad rode the coat tails of the generations before him. Fast forward 45 years my old college neighbor passed away. When he did he was down to 400 mother cows.

 

[smartin0022]

I think hes gonna work nicely. Homegrown, taming him down for a few weeks b4 he goes to work.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

I just stumbled onto this thread(?), I liked #14 as a calf, and I still do

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Being Angus, are you going to DNA test him for genetic defects?

 

[smartin0022]

Being Angus, are you going to DNA test him for genetic defects?

Never have. How much?? What will it tell me? I'm new to this Era of registered stock with genetic testing.

 

[smartin0022]

Never have. How much?? What will it tell me? I'm new to this Era of registered stock with genetic testing.

I guess I wasn't thinking you said genetic defects DUH. I'm an idiot.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Lol. No problem. I was just thinking, using a bull from your herd, you could be doubling up recessive genes....good and bad ones.
I'm not familiar with DNA costs for that. But like for color, or polled gene, pretty inexpensive.

 

[Hpacres440p]

What to you do about breeding back to dam and her related cows-consider those calves terminal?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

No, not if they are good and no defects. If the calf turns out good - you call in line breeding. If they are bad - that's in-breeding!

 

[smartin0022]

What to you do about breeding back to dam and her related cows-consider those calves terminal?

I did use a home bull last season for cleanup as well and I put a cheerio on his mommas bull calf this year better safe than sorry. But I don't plan to keep or sell any of the calves that were cleanup calves as replacements/breeding stock they will end up in the yards. There is one super nice heifer out of the last year bull though

 

[Nesikep]

He looks good! I haven't regretted experimenting with linebreeding, not everything has been positive, I have never had a good calf from a father/daughter or a mother/son mating, but have had exceptional cows from full siblings and cousins so I'll continue on that.. I have too small a herd to be completely closed, but using one or two of my own, saving some money, and putting it toward an outcross bull that's a little more expensive has worked for me so far
I kept 3 boys intact last year, and went through phases of liking different ones over others.. Here's the 3 of them, all from the same sire (an ourcross sire) middle and left one are from a pair of full sisters, the one on the the right from about a 7/8th sister
left one packed the most weight, would probably be good to increase milk but at the cost of probably being a harder keeper, also had the most length, one on the right was deepest and thickest (used a maternal brother to him), and the one in the middle was what I think was a balance between them.

Never seen any grain, a little more feed would definitely round him out, but this is him now

Momma, she's been a really reliable cow

 

[simme]

Here are the Simmental association costs for DNA testing. There have been a couple of recent posts referring to the cost of testing. Genetic defect testing as a standalone test is $25 per defect. There are 7 defects that can be tested for in simmentals, so expensive to go that route. But the testing for all 7 defects can be done for $25 total if done as an add-on to 100k genomic testing. Genomic testing comes in two flavors - a micro low density test for $33 and a 100k high density test for $50. For $75 dollars, you can get the HD genomic dna test, parent verification (if parents have dna on file), and testing for the 7 defects. Not sure what other breeds charge. Lab is Neogen Geneseek.

 

[Katpau]

So I have some young calves right now 4 bull prospects. I know which one is my favorite for a keeper but I've had 4 people all pick a different calf for a bull prospect out of the 4 I'm choosing from. So #36 out of my #4 cow is heavy gutted calf straight and clean footed, momma is a good cow one of my top 5 cows unfortunately she has 6 udders, 2 are obsolete and probably not that big of a deal. I like him for the #3. #14 is out of #24 has the cleanest top line and best flank set of the 4 he is by far the lowest birth weight calf at 65 lbs. #37 out of #13 is my second pick he's got a lot of things I like small headed medium birthweight 81 lbs, clean feet depth but a little shy in the flank. #27 is out of 29 probably one of my best cows he has a red tinge to him but he's pretty solid just my least favorite headset. So with all that said which one do yall like. All grandsons of SAV Resource.

6 Udders!!! That would be quite a sight. I am going to guess that you are telling us she has 6 teats on her single udder. Extra teats are quite common in Angus, and I have observed them to be more often on the heavier milking cows. They are usually not a problem, although they can be if the calf focuses only on a small dry one and never sucks the good teats.

 

[smartin0022]

Most important thing about any animal on my place is docility. This one had some snort to start but like a dog it has alot to do with how they are treated and some to do with genetics.

 

[Ebenezer]

Turned out two homegrown bulls last night. Only 3 groups this year and have a proven bull I bought for #3. Really makes some good cows if you pick your bulls from good cows.