Picking a replacement bull from your own herd.

[Ebenezer]

GAR Precision 1680/curly calf syndrome

GAR Precision 1680

Information on GAR Precision 1680

www.cattle.com

These bulls, your example and mine, are examples of "done correctly" being done very badly. As I said... most people don't have the tools necessary to do proper line breeding. Their motivations are many, and the results are not good. But there are people that either get lucky or really know enough to do it properly.

The deal on 1680 and 9J9 brings up a point that was swept under the rug. These were breed leaders who owned and promoted these bulls. Some would call them skilled breeders and the most experienced of cattlemen. Why did the problem ONLY occur at first in herds where the genetics were used from purchased cattle or semen? My guess is that a lot of cover up was done prior, during and after to protect certain individuals. You can inbreed or outcross and if crooks or shady folks are in any part of it there is not going to be a clear answer. It took a bit of pressure to get AAA to act on the new defects. One of the old chat sites seemed to push the issues to make it happen. Same thing for atypical blood types. That is now a thing of the past and one less way to allow the association to be forced to either blatantly ignore or deal with the same character flaws in humans.

 

[Rmc]

A couple of points
if you are line breeding and only occasionally bring in òutside genetics only occasionally then it reduces your risk of introducing outside defects.
If you test any sire you bring into your herd by line breeding him then you can bring any outside defects to the forefront and eliminate them.

You don't have to totally eliminate a line just because it has a genetic defect when a dna test for the defect is available . A non carrier is fine to use.
This would be another reason to push registries to mandate dna match of parents prior to registrations.
It makes it very difficult to Tracy a genetic defect if the registrations aren't 100 percent accurate.

 

[Travlr]

So the easiest way to tell if a animal has a genetic defect so it can be eliminated from the gene pool should only be left to those who are good at it. Everyone else should just continue to outcross and continue to spread possible defects in the gene pool until such defects reach up to 20% of the population. Or until the defects reach a large enough numbers to get the attention of those who are good at tracking such defects . By this point continual outcrossing will make tracking the original source difficult ro trace . It sounds like sound scientific breeding principles to me . Or something of a joke to suggest such is based in scientific sound breeding principles.
Sounds to me like someone is promoting poor breeding practices that are much more likely to cause harm to the entire breed in question overall by making genetic defects much harder to trace and affect a much larger percentage of the population.
Attacking me personally won't change the science behind line breeding and the risks of outcrossing.

Okay troll... whatever you say.

 

[Travlr]

The deal on 1680 and 9J9 brings up a point that was swept under the rug. These were breed leaders who owned and promoted these bulls. Some would call them skilled breeders and the most experienced of cattlemen. Why did the problem ONLY occur at first in herds where the genetics were used from purchased cattle or semen? My guess is that a lot of cover up was done prior, during and after to protect certain individuals. You can inbreed or outcross and if crooks or shady folks are in any part of it there is not going to be a clear answer. It took a bit of pressure to get AAA to act on the new defects. One of the old chat sites seemed to push the issues to make it happen. Same thing for atypical blood types. That is now a thing of the past and one less way to allow the association to be forced to either blatantly ignore or deal with the same character flaws in humans.

You make a good point that when discovered the problem was already widespread. I attribute that to the bull's popularity and to AI in general.

 

[smartin0022]

We have personally linebreed coonhounds and bulldogs regularly and sometimes the stars align. If it doesnt work out you have to be able to cull hard at least with dogs. Getting to tight creates problems from my experience. This bull was from a purchased bull his mother and half sister is as close as he will get to anything I got everything else will be at least 3 removed or more on dams sire. So it should only have 2 chances to be to close ans the odds go down from there as I'm AI'ing all of them this is just a cleanup bull. Last year cleanup bull covered 40%. Few opens. All these calves out of this bull that are within 3 generations will be outcrossed of sold to feedlots depending. I have unfortunately spent $3500 on bulls just to send all the calves to the yards. So far his sire is improving my herd so I'll double down on him and it should really line up phenotype but could get ugly if it does I'll let you all know. Honestly! My neighbor been running Rankin bulls for over 40 years on commercials all his calves are out of Rankin blood and he breeds his heifers back to Rankin bulls again been doing it for 40+ years he has some really exceptional cattle. Only time he went out was with a heifer bull I purchased and sold him after I was done he used him 3 years and went straight back into the Rankin bulls. This bull is pre sold to another different neighbor with 45 head who wanted him without him being for sale. When I got one that good in my own pasture I don't see the need to go buy one for $3500-5000 when I can use this one instead of throwing darts I know what his sire and dam were and couldn't fault either one much if at all.

 

[Nick Wagner]

Fellow who worked for the Hereford Association, LP McCann, was tasked with eliminating the dwarf gene from the breed and wrote a book about it. Battle of Bull Runts. How a bull born in 1899 became very popular and had offspring sold across the country. It took nearly forty years before calves with him on both sides of the pedigree were born, and the dwarf gene was exposed. The problem wasn't recognized as a genetic flaw at first as there were only a few scattered reports, so the gene continued to spread for another decade before being finally being recognized for what it was. A lot of similarities to the 1680 bull.

The American Angus Association today will declare a bull recessive trait free after breeding 33 daughters back to him and all resulting calves are clean. That's a pretty large effort.

I've been using my own bulls for over a dozen years now, no curly calves, no developmental duplication, did have a red one a few years ago. Also had a monster calf once, 140 pounds and dead by the time we got him out. I believe the cow got bred by her son, both went to town.

Bred three select cows AI two years ago, had one resulting calf and was disappointed with him last fall. He went to the feedlot.

I'm not large enough to continue line breeding indefinitely, but the calves look like peas in a pod and grow like weeds so far.

There are risks. We started much as smartin describes, using a nice bull calf on a limited basis at first. His were the best doing calves the next year, a real eye opening experience for me.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The American Simmental Assn requires all calves born crossed with an Angus, Chi, Shorthorn, and several other breeds to be DNA tested for defects before registering them.

 

[Travlr]

The American Simmental Assn requires all calves born crossed with an Angus, Chi, Shorthorn, and several other breeds to be DNA tested for defects before registering them.

Gotta admit... I have no clue how or why registering a crossbred calf would be something to do.

 

[simme]

Gotta admit... I have no clue how or why registering a crossbred calf would be something to do.

Any breed that came into existence here through a breedup program (simmental and some other continental breeds) started out as 50% crossbreds. Then 75%. Then 87.5%. Easier to import semen (for breedup) than purebred females. Those crossbreds have to be registered to document the pedigree and percentages. American developed breeds started out as crossbreds. That's the why.

 

[Travlr]

Any breed that came into existence here through a breedup program (simmental and some other continental breeds) started out as 50% crossbreds. Then 75%. Then 87.5%. Easier to import semen (for breedup) than purebred females. Those crossbreds have to be registered to document the pedigree and percentages. American developed breeds started out as crossbreds. That's the why.

I guess I just like Simmental the way they are.

I get the attraction in crossbreeding... but if I want a registered animal I'll buy something 100%. There are enough breeds that I can choose what I want already.

To be honest. I'm not much for designer dogs either. Some of the best dogs I've had were mutts, but if someone wanted money for them claiming they were registered I'd laugh. It would be like buying a truck with a good reputation and somebody putting another manufacturers drivetrain in it.

I've built custom cars, but I don't give a warranty on them when I sell them... and registration is a warranty.

 

[Rmc]

Gotta admit... I have no clue how or why registering a crossbred calf would be something to do.

Some breed associations admit that they use other breeds in their registry . Most do not admit it they would rather hide it

 

[Nesikep]

I guess I just like Simmental the way they are.

I liked them the way they WERE

It would be like buying a truck with a good reputation and somebody putting another manufacturers drivetrain in it.

Lots of "Fummins" trucks out there!

 

[Lee VanRoss]

I liked them the way they WERE

View attachment 16429



Lots of "Fummins" trucks

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Some breed associations admit that they use other breeds in their registry . Most do not admit it they would rather hide it

Are you implying some breeds might not be a pure as the driven snow, and could be hiding ancestors that could effect the performance of a breed, or add desired attributes while concealing the addition of the outside genetic pool? Thats just not possible!

 

[kentuckyguy]

I am starting to pretty much AI my complete herd and use yearlings to clean up the few cows I don't stick.

Just had a heifer born from a SimAngus bull this week. The bull was out of probably our best cow.

Made me wonder why I even AI'd. By far the stoutest calf I've had born this spring.
The calf

The bull at 9 months old on grass no grain

The bulls 13 year old dam

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Kentuckyguy, when you have a great COW, you can breed her to a billie-goat and she will give you a great calf most years.
Travlr...are you talking about how they were in Europe? How long have you been dealing with them here in US? We have Purebred and Full-blooded. Full-blooded are the only ones here 100% Simmental.
Most of mine are close, after breeding for 50+ years, but never considered 100%.

 

[smartin0022]

Held up well tested 86% and 35 cm at 15 months. Everything checked out bred and on to a new home with a nice payday and $ saved on a cleanup bull price can't wait to see his offspring.

 

[smartin0022]

Cleanup