Pasture rotation is working

[agmantoo]

Just out of curiosity. Agmantoo, how long is your winter? Or when do your neighbors start and stop feeding hay

High Cotton, that is an interesting question. Actually it is two questions. My neighbors will start feeding hay anywhere from late Oct to early Dec. and they will feed hay through most of Mar. and into April. Their Winter is 5 months plus long in most years. They will also feed hay some years in July and August.

In my case, Dec. remains much of a growing month for me and I am not on stockpiled forage until 15 Dec at the earliest and often later. Then, my coming out of Winter on a good year is around 1 Mar. at the earliest and around 15 Mar. at the latest. If needed I can go back to where the cattle grazed in late Fall/early Winter and get a little grazing. My Winter is 90 days long in most years. Before I went to year round grazing using stockpiled fescue and sowed marshall rye grass I amassed enough hay to last the 90 days so I know that I am accurate on that number. Not having to feed hay reduced the making of ~ 300 round bales. Back then, I also marketed calves on the light side to reduce the hay requirement. Now I market calves early only if I foresee an upcoming shortage in stockpiled grass. With the prices where they are currently I have been carrying the calves to higher weights because I have the feed. I only make a little money by going to the higher weights however.

 

[agmantoo]

JHH

With a 7 day rotation the reemergence of the grazed grass has started and the foot traffic from the cattle destroys what could be a lot of new growth and at the same time increases soil compaction. Given a chance cattle will back graze and eat some of the new growth also. The combination robs you of a lot of potential forage. Until you try shortening the grazing period you will not readily realize by how much.

 

[agmantoo]

shaz
What growing zone are you in?
I am in zone 7.

 

[plumber_greg]

I wanted to clarify on my not fertilizing. I was talking about nitrogen. For some time I didn't worry about the P and K, and my legumes started suffering. Rotational grazing really helps legumes out, but they still need their nutrients. I GPS soil sampled my pastures 3 or 4 years ago, and the potassium called for 190 lbs. an acre! No potash. Couldn't afford that much, but have been trying to slowly build it up. Lime also of course is important, but with the legumes and cow manure in a grazing system you can realize some real savings in fert.
Agman is right JHH, I like to rotate about every four days, I don't have the time for daily rotation. The cows still will tell you it's time to move. I like to leave mine in one more day when they start bawling wanting to move. Usually that means that they have eaten the dessert part of their paddock, and don't want to start eating the veggies.
Agman, why do you have weed problems in your pastures, I've known you to mention them before? Maybe my shorter growing season keeps them in check, but I would have to hunt to find a weed in my pastures. gs

 

[plumber_greg]

I mean phrospus, but I couldn't spell it. gs

 

[agmantoo]

plumber_greg

What weed problem I have resulted after the major drought we experienced in 2007 & 2008. Much of my forage died and I still had the herd to feed so I have let plants grow that should have been clipped. My thinking was that a weed was only a weed if the cattle did not eat it. The legumes had reseeded themselves many times over and when rain did come the clovers sprouted with a vengence to the point they smothered sprouting grasses. Years following the drought period have not had an abundance of rain. I have new grass now that is suffering or dying due to lack of moisture but I am slowly recovering and do have adequate forage stockpiled for the usually hot and dry July/August period here. I will again need rain come September to accumulate forage for Winter.

 

[plumber_greg]

I understand. 'Nother thing I wondered, enphodyte , can't spell that either, fescue. All my fescue is infected, but is the infection worse or better in other growing zones? Would my cattle have problems goin' to South Mo. or NC? Or would they already be acclimated to the fescue. There would be other enviromental changes for them, but do you think the fescue would be one of them? I know I bought some heifers one time from So Iowa, some had a few problems, some didn't. The ones that did may have been on some pretty good brome pastures, I don't really know. gs

 

[agmantoo]

plumber_greg

From what I have read endophyte levels do vary some from location to location. I know that I have some cows that are better adapted to tolerating the endophyte than others. Only the endophyte infected fescue survives year after year around here. Clipping seed heads and having legumes and other grasses interseeded with the fescue is the best way I have found to offset the endophyte issues. Some folks would label the issues as problems but since fescue is , for me, the most dependable source and least expensive to maintain of my forages I have learned to "live with it". No other forage can provide for my herd the amount of feed with equal nutrient levels over as many months of the year. It also stockpiles better than other grasses. I do have a few cattle that are not as slick hided as I would like but that is part of the trade off. Some of most productive cows have been kept way past normal culling cycles and I have one cow that will probably be permitted to die here. She is not less than 18 years old, lived without grain on mainly endophyte infected fescue, and has a new calf now. Bulls that I bring in do not fare as well on my forages. The bulls seldom remain here more than a 2 to 3 years.

 

[shaz]

shaz
What growing zone are you in?
I am in zone 7.

Agmantoo,
I'm in zone 7 as well. I run 50 pairs on 5 paddocks based around permanent fences and ponds. The breakdown from front to back acreage wise is-
Paddock1 40 acres (my drylot and working pens are in this pasture)
Paddock2 20 acres
Paddock3 17 acres
Paddock4 40 acres
Paddock5 115 more less.

The last three paddocks were a 173acre farm I bought in 06 that was overstocked and continuosly grazed but I've since built fences.

 

[plumber_greg]

Shaz, may be my wrong interteptation of terms. Do you mean you run the pairs on paddoks ranging is sizes of 115 to 17 acres? Or do you put temporary cross fences in to make them smaller? If you don't, what's your thinking on pastures that big for 50 cows on a rotational system? If you use cross fences, why temporary ones? Wouldn't it be a better use of time to have permanaet electric fences, with the paddocks sized to use the grass efficently, and the cows moved every few days?
Lots of questions, I know, and not critizing anything you do, just pickin' your brain. gs

 

[shaz]

Shaz, may be my wrong interteptation of terms. Do you mean you run the pairs on paddoks ranging is sizes of 115 to 17 acres? Or do you put temporary cross fences in to make them smaller? If you don't, what's your thinking on pastures that big for 50 cows on a rotational system? If you use cross fences, why temporary ones? Wouldn't it be a better use of time to have permanaet electric fences, with the paddocks sized to use the grass efficently, and the cows moved every few days?
Lots of questions, I know, and not critizing anything you do, just pickin' your brain. gs

That's just my current status. Got a LONG way to go. I'm only using permanent fences and ponds at the moment. I'm going to have some major problems with further subdividing. The biggest issue is time.
I can get down to a 4 day rotation but not every day rotation. I'll be in Mexico all this week for instance and looks like I'll have to go to Japan.

The farm needs to be able to function without me for at least a week.\

 

[plumber_greg]

Now I got what the deal is. I agree, it hard to do it every day. I always thought if everyday was a requirement, I'd just buy holsteins and milk em'. With an everyday rotation, I think you gotta' do like agman and have a temporary wire up everyday. I don't have time for that, if it comes to my business or cows the cows would lose almost everytime. Start small and do a little every year. Good luck. gs

 

[novatech]

The time cattle are left on each paddock is based on visual observation. Cattle are left on until the forage is grazed to the desired height. This height may vary according to the variety of grass in the paddock. The time will also vary with the climate changes from month to month, fertilizer application or anything else that affects growth. The paddock size may be determined by the amount of time one has to manage and of course the number of cattle. Experience with your particular pasture is the only way to know. It is not a one size fits all stuation.

 

[dun]

The time cattle are left on each paddock is based on visual observation. Cattle are left on until the forage is grazed to the desired height. This height may vary according to the variety of grass in the paddock. The time will also vary with the climate changes from month to month, fertilizer application or anything else that affects growth. The paddock size may be determined by the amount of time one has to manage and of course the number of cattle. Experience with your particular pasture is the only way to know.It is not a one size fits all stuation.

I just felt this needed a bit more emphasis
I also varies sometimes significatnly within a short period of time, just have to also make sure that they're not grazing the new growth while they're in a specific paddock

 

[Lucky_P]

After 5 or 6 years of continually moving temporary polywire fences to rotate cows through our three main pastures - 45, 25, and 15 acres, we finally felt comfortable enough with our system to put up permanent 2-wire electrified HT divider fences, cutting the whole place up into 5 acre paddocks. Depending upon time of year and how fast the grass is growing, cows(40 pair + a dozen or so yearling heifers) rotate through at a pace of anywhere from 1 to 3 days per paddock. With those 16 and the two 10-acre 'sacrifice' paddocks at the house, they never come back to a previously-grazed paddock in less than 20 days, sometimes it's closer to 50 days between passes.
It takes virtually NO time to move them - they know, and WANT to go to the next paddock. Once they see you walking or driving out to move them, they're there waiting at the gate before you can get there.
What, you don't have 5-10 minutes a day for 'em? (or every 2 or 3 days?)

One of the biggest mistakes I ever made was chasing those NRCS EQUIP dollars - and killing off a good stand of high-endophyte KY-31 fescue. After the OG/timothy/RC mix they required to replace it turned toes-up at the first hint of drought, I've had to go back and re-renovate, 'on my own dime'. Have used Max-Q fescue, Persist OG, and Kopu II white clover - too pricey to recommend intentionally killing out 'dirty' fescue to do this, but since I had to put something back in, I bit the bullet and went with the Max-Q. Looking good so far, but my oldest field of Max-Q is only about 5 years out right now.
But, in the long run, I suspect I'd have been way ahead just keeping a good stand of clover and lespedeza going in my good ol' dirty KY-31.