Over Conditioned

[Bright Raven]

Could be their excessive condition that makes the appear like chubby midgets.

You been around Angus too long. Simmentals have depth.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Could be their excessive condition that makes the appear like chubby midgets.

You been around Angus too long. Simmentals have depth.

Are they all vertically challenged?

 

[Bright Raven]

Could be their excessive condition that makes the appear like chubby midgets.

You been around Angus too long. Simmentals have depth.

Are they all vertically challenged?

They are not framey that is for sure. Pretty normal for 8 month old heifers.

 

[TexasBred]

That one you're so crazy about looks a little short or are you much taller than I remember?

It is a distorted picture. Maybe not distorted but as the gentleman was taking the picture she was in the background. I am reaching my hand out but she is farther back. I was going to get a picture of her for Jeanne. That calf is bigger.

She's a dwarf.

Thanks TT. I was still trying to figure out how to tell him without totally destroying him. :hide:

 

[Bright Raven]

It is a distorted picture. Maybe not distorted but as the gentleman was taking the picture she was in the background. I am reaching my hand out but she is farther back. I was going to get a picture of her for Jeanne. That calf is bigger.

She's a dwarf.

Thanks TT. I was still trying to figure out how to tell him without totally destroying him. :hide:

Do you remember Gimli? He looked like a dwarf.


I think I will add some frame. This bull would do it:

 

[Davemk]

What are the most significant health and welfare drawbacks to over conditioned cows? Excluding economic.

I run a herd of approximately 20 momma cows and am 100 % AI. Despite the comments that over conditioning adversely affects fertility, I have not experienced that. In fact, on the contrary, fertility in my herd is outstanding. For four consecutive years, every cow has bred back in the 60 days postpartum breeding period. AI conception on first service is 80 %.

Regarding calving issues, I have not lost a single calf during partum in the last four years. On average, I assist a couple cows every year during the calving season - all my calves are born September/October. The assist is not needed only makes me feel better. I bring them into the birthing pasture away from black Vultures and where I can assist. In addition, my calves are far from dinks! This year, my average birth weight was 88 pounds. My running average is 86. The largest calf this past fall was 125. Another was 112 pounds. The 125 pound calf needed some low level assistance by using only chains - no jacking. The cow that had the 112 pounder delivered in about 10 minutes. No assist and she was one of the most over conditioned cows in the herd.

What I worry about most is the stress that over conditioning places on their body. I think and I haven't experienced it yet, is that over conditioning will adversely affect longevity.

There is a difference between over conditioned with grain and fat on grass. One is good and the other is really bad for reproduction. Your cattle are not over conditioned.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Don't want them to be over conditioned as well as too skinny. Never had trouble with cows calving, which were on the fatter side, but had some not nice experience with fatter heifers calving. One time it was with fairly big angusx heifer calving with ~110lbs angus calf. Was a very hard pull, calf hasn't survived 12hours and heifer recovered in a good week. Typically, I'd have expected her to calve that calf unassisted or with slight assistance, but not how it was this time. The heifer was in a very good condition. Had another heifer, which was on the fatter side, calving this spring and she was slightly harder calved than her herd mates. Mom told me that years ago they've bought a herefordxdairy heifer and kept her on a diet for abit to loose some condition before the breeding, as she was very fat.
Usually don't have any over conditioned cows. Those which loose their calves will put some more weight on, but never becomes very fat. Here's an example:

She had her first calf in November,17 and due to prolonged calving lost it. She's never seen any grain since we put her with the bull, only grass or hay. She is due with her second calf in August this year. She has grown alot and she's abit too "soft" for my liking now... But she doesn't have much of fat showing off.
Have noticed, at least in our herd and our conditions, those cows, which doesn't produce much of milk, always keep their condition better. If a first calver wouldn't change her shape after calving, I'd be very concerned that she has no milk.
I like cows to be more or less fit all the time. Lets say slightly better condition before calving, then slimming down abit, but not too much, and then regaining better condition after weaning. Over conditioned cows doesn't look nice and healthy too me.

 

[Ebenezer]

Good articlehttps://www.progressivecattle.com/topics/feed-nutrition/nutrition-during-gestation-in-spring

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"I guess you didn't catch it when I said "bull bred", not AI. AI has a higher conception rate at any time, or condition."
Simm - I don't understand this statement at all. AI conception is NOT as high as natural cover. Never has been, probably never will be - if you are using a BSE tested bull.
Ron - overly fat virgin heifers would be the only detriment I can think of (for lifetime milking). "Most" of yours aren't obese, just overly fat.
Other than really obese cattle, "generally" fat cows will have less calving difficulties than thin cows.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Read my original post. June-Aug breeding season AI conception rates are higher. Even a bull that has a high sperm count with lose viability when his testicles reach 95 degrees.
Ask Ron about his conception rates, he does 100% AI.

 

[CattleMan1920]

"I guess you didn't catch it when I said "bull bred", not AI. AI has a higher conception rate at any time, or condition."
Simm - I don't understand this statement at all. AI conception is NOT as high as natural cover. Never has been, probably never will be - if you are using a BSE tested bull.
Ron - overly fat virgin heifers would be the only detriment I can think of (for lifetime milking). "Most" of yours aren't obese, just overly fat.
Other than really obese cattle, "generally" fat cows will have less calving difficulties than thin cows.

Here is the kind of calf, my "morbidly obese", "over conditioned" heifers raise, any questions? LOL!

[image]312[/image]

This SAV Raindance calf is 124 days old in the photo and video.

Video of her:

http://bit.ly/2woTo4T

Her Momma, pictured below, was around 1500 pounds when this Raindance heifer was born (her baby is 2 days old in this photo). The heifer is out of our biggest cow, 2200 pounds (do you all need proof?) Fed her grain and haylage right up till she calved. Her condition was perfect. She settled to SAV Raindance with sexed semen, first try. ZERO, fertility issues whatsoever.

[image]311[/image]

For the sleuths on here, that was a "big ole fat" Colonel daughter that photobombed the calf above. 247 days old. Momma weighs 1875, open.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Read my original post. June-Aug breeding season AI conception rates are higher. Even a bull that has a high sperm count with lose viability when his testicles reach 95 degrees.
Ask Ron about his conception rates, he does 100% AI.

I have a SAV President son right now that is 8 months old, he got out on Saturday, because I forgot to close an electric fence gate, my fault, he managed to get over to a pasture which has some of my older cows, that were open, and being held open for AI, he apparently found himself a gal that was in the first hours of the heat and did the deed.

It was pushing high 80's most of the week here.

I contacted Ron and said, "do you think?" he said "absolutely"

I'm going to semen check the bull next week (I usually wait until 12 months) and preg check the cow in 28 days. If this 8-month-old bull manages to settle an old cow in high 80's low 90's temps, I think that speaks a lot more for the pedigree and condition than solely a broad statement that bulls cannot settle cows in high temps. Just my opinion, not saying you are wrong or right, but some bulls are far more virile than others no matter what the temps.

It's been my experience that certain bulls, not breed specific, will chill out in the shade while others will take up the challenge even if it's 100 outside, and go like a maniac until his tongue is hanging out. I've seen a son of EXAR Denver 2002B go till he was weezing and foaming at the mouth, in the middle of summer, and come the next spring, he made it happen. He was on 50+ open cows as a two-year-old. He was not my bull, the neighbor owned him. He was unstoppable!

 

[Bright Raven]

Read my original post. June-Aug breeding season AI conception rates are higher. Even a bull that has a high sperm count with lose viability when his testicles reach 95 degrees.
Ask Ron about his conception rates, he does 100% AI.

Yes. That is the reason I went to all September/October calving. So I was breeding in December and January.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Does anyone get the idea that Hook is like the slow kid in high school that no one will look at or talk to? "It's ok, Hook, you can come over and join the discussion, you don't have to hide under the stairwell and feel sorry for yourself."

Try bringing something meaningful to the Cattle Today table, it's far less work than trolling, and more rewarding. Who knows you might even say something profound! Even a blind chicken finds a kernel of corn every once in a while, right?

 

[CattleMan1920]

Read my original post. June-Aug breeding season AI conception rates are higher. Even a bull that has a high sperm count with lose viability when his testicles reach 95 degrees.
Ask Ron about his conception rates, he does 100% AI.

Yes. That is the reason I went to all September/October calving. So I was breeding in December and January.

I have more than enough AAA records to show that if you give the animals proper shade and water, that breeding during the summer is no big deal. I understand, that if like many cattle I see around here, they are piled 60 deep under one tree and drinking out of a pond with algae foaming over the top like a freshly prepared cappuccino, then that's another ballgame completely.

It's absolutely true that a bull can roast his nuggets and his ability to perform can be reduced, but again, it's more about management style than the animal and the temps.

 

[Bright Raven]

Read my original post. June-Aug breeding season AI conception rates are higher. Even a bull that has a high sperm count with lose viability when his testicles reach 95 degrees.
Ask Ron about his conception rates, he does 100% AI.

Yes. That is the reason I went to all September/October calving. So I was breeding in December and January.

I have more than enough AAA records to show that if you give the animals proper shade and water, that breeding during the summer is no big deal. I understand, that if like many cattle I see around here, they are piled 60 deep under one tree and drinking out of a pond with algae foaming over the top like a freshly prepared cappuccino, then that's another ballgame completely.

It's absolutely true that a bull can roast his nuggets and his ability to perform can be reduced, but again, it's more about management style than the animal and the temps.

You are missing the point. Heat detection becomes almost worthless on my farm during hot weather. I breed on natural heats. In May/June, cows and heifers spend the heat of the day in shade. The heat suppresses the display of estrus behavior. The other cows say to heck with this, I ain't going out in this heat and ride the one in heat. It was so difficult here that I was breeding on nothing but a hint and a little mucus on the vulva. Dun and I discussed this in a couple of threads when he was still here.

Now, if you synchronize them, it would not be as difficult. But even when I use TAI I like to see some good estrus behavior.

 

[Ebenezer]

Read my original post. June-Aug breeding season AI conception rates are higher. Even a bull that has a high sperm count with lose viability when his testicles reach 95 degrees.
Ask Ron about his conception rates, he does 100% AI.

Yes. That is the reason I went to all September/October calving. So I was breeding in December and January.

I have more than enough AAA records to show that if you give the animals proper shade and water, that breeding during the summer is no big deal. I understand, that if like many cattle I see around here, they are piled 60 deep under one tree and drinking out of a pond with algae foaming over the top like a freshly prepared cappuccino, then that's another ballgame completely.

It's absolutely true that a bull can roast his nuggets and his ability to perform can be reduced, but again, it's more about management style than the animal and the temps.

You are also diluting the fescue with supplementation. And you probably have diluting forages in the pasture as well. I never really worried about a bull not breeding if he cleared his BSE.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Yes. That is the reason I went to all September/October calving. So I was breeding in December and January.

I have more than enough AAA records to show that if you give the animals proper shade and water, that breeding during the summer is no big deal. I understand, that if like many cattle I see around here, they are piled 60 deep under one tree and drinking out of a pond with algae foaming over the top like a freshly prepared cappuccino, then that's another ballgame completely.

It's absolutely true that a bull can roast his nuggets and his ability to perform can be reduced, but again, it's more about management style than the animal and the temps.

You are missing the point. Heat detection becomes almost worthless on my farm during hot weather. I breed on natural heats. In May/June, cows and heifers spend the heat of the day in shade. The heat suppresses the display of estrus behavior. The other cows say to heck with this, I ain't going out in this heat and ride the one in heat. It was so difficult here that I was breeding on nothing but a hint and a little mucus on the vulva. Dun and I discussed this in a couple of threads when he was still here.

Now, if you synchronize them, it would not be as difficult. But even when I use TAI I like to see some good estrus behavior.

That's why I got the Dairymaster Moo Monitor.

 

[Bright Raven]

I have more than enough AAA records to show that if you give the animals proper shade and water, that breeding during the summer is no big deal. I understand, that if like many cattle I see around here, they are piled 60 deep under one tree and drinking out of a pond with algae foaming over the top like a freshly prepared cappuccino, then that's another ballgame completely.

It's absolutely true that a bull can roast his nuggets and his ability to perform can be reduced, but again, it's more about management style than the animal and the temps.

You are missing the point. Heat detection becomes almost worthless on my farm during hot weather. I breed on natural heats. In May/June, cows and heifers spend the heat of the day in shade. The heat suppresses the display of estrus behavior. The other cows say to heck with this, I ain't going out in this heat and ride the one in heat. It was so difficult here that I was breeding on nothing but a hint and a little mucus on the vulva. Dun and I discussed this in a couple of threads when he was still here.

Now, if you synchronize them, it would not be as difficult. But even when I use TAI I like to see some good estrus behavior.

That's why I got the Dairymaster Moo Monitor.

Good point!

 

[TexasBred]

"I guess you didn't catch it when I said "bull bred", not AI. AI has a higher conception rate at any time, or condition."
Simm - I don't understand this statement at all. AI conception is NOT as high as natural cover. Never has been, probably never will be - if you are using a BSE tested bull.
Ron - overly fat virgin heifers would be the only detriment I can think of (for lifetime milking). "Most" of yours aren't obese, just overly fat.
Other than really obese cattle, "generally" fat cows will have less calving difficulties than thin cows.

Ron's cattle would probably be referred to as "pleasingly plump". :hide: