OTC Meds Scheduled to become Rx Only

[wbvs58]

Is Simme refering to this? "I have always vaccinated and wormed my own animals, thank God. Will that be the next thing that is illegal? "

Hey look, you can even get stuff to doctor your own elephant.

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I think I see some incorrect information in this thread. There was a statement that a person will need to see a vet in order to use a dewormer. Common cattle dewormers are not prescription drugs. They are available to purchase and use or misuse as you please. The June 2023 change does not include your dewormer. However misuse can and does lead to resistance to the dewormer and loss of effectiveness. Still, misleading to make statements or implications of needing to see a vet in order to deworm.

Having withdrawal times on drugs and random testing for residue at slaughter is an attempt to monitor and prevent traces of antibiotic in our food supply. People do not always follow the withdrawal times and the withdrawal times are based on a correct dosage of a drug. Regardless, antibiotic resistance occurs within the bacteria itself. Using a drug at a low dose or when it is not needed can help develop antibiotic resistance in a strain of bacteria that then circulates in nature. Regardless of whether the animal was slaughtered and entered the food chain. Withdrawal times alone do not stop resistance.

I don't find any FDA rule or proposed rule requiring all antibiotics to be dispensed as individual doses instead of a bottle. Pretty sure that chicken companies that still use antibiotics to treat chicken infections do not dispense individual doses to each chicken. Or feedlots treating animals in the sick pen. I suspect the discussion about individual doses as opposed to a bottle comes from private vet clinics concerned about their responsibility in regard to whether the animal owner is going to correctly use the product. A vet's livelihood depends on maintaining a license to practice. That is where that relationship comes into play. A vet that sells bottles of drugs to just anyone is taking some risk to his livelihood. A medical doctor that gets a request for a bottle of "just in case" drugs for a family member not yet sick is not likely to agree. Both the vet and medical doctor operate under similar licensing requirements. I know that there is plenty of room for debate about the issue. But consider all the facts and issues., There is a lot of information

I can also say that sometimes vets have "special" prices and rules for high maintenance customers but will do most anything for their good relationship clients.

Some drugs are specific to species and should not be available for unlimited general use. Micotil is an effective drug, but not appropriate to treat respiratory issues in your family.

Well put Simme. I have tried to keep out of this conversation as it is very much related to the US. The only comment I will make is that dispensing individual doses of a drug may not be totally legal either. There is a lot of information on the label of bottles that is supposed to go with that single dose dispensed, things like batch number, expiry date, withdrawal time to slaughter, who it is dispensed to and for what animal. The Vet is required to record much of this in their records. An unlabelled syringe taken home on the dash of a car for a dose for an animal could lead to problems for the Vet if it was misused.
Don't expect all this dispensing to come free of charge, it is not just a case of drawing something out of a bottle.

Ken

 

[TCRanch]

Thanks for your input, @simme and @wbvs58. It was my vet that said they're encouraged to dispense by the dose. But she didn't specify if it was the owner of the clinic or whether that's what they understood as the terms of the new regulation. Which would make more money? By the dose or bottle?

 

[farmerjan]

By the dose because if nothing else there is a cost for the syringe and needle.... sounds to me like the owner of the clinic is looking to make more money on the farmers/animal owners.

I agree with what @wbvs58 said about techinically they are supposed to supply the dose. lot # etc of the bottle. They have to keep record in the office for any "controlled drug".... I do not see where it must be dispensed by dose... the way I read it but that's not saying that is perfect either...

 

[simme]

Depends on how they are priced, but I suspect that by the bottle would make more money for a clinic. Preparing a bottle for a customer is fairly quick. Vet completes the drug label in the practice software, prints the label and attaches to the bottle or box. Counting pills or filling syringes takes time. Time is money. Vet clinic employees are more expensive now than 3 years ago and harder to find.

My daughter tells me that the way to maximize profit in a vet clinic is through high volume of fairly simple procedures. I think people would assume that complicated surgeries or expensive procedures maximize profit. But those require a lot of time and multiple assistants. Volume and speed makes the money. May be why your GP medical doctor working for the giant hospital system is in a hurry.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

The problem with making more drugs prescription is that the vets no longer have to compete with other distribution channels over price.
We have a dog that has a chronic ear infection that got so bad that we took him to the small animal vet, he charged us eight times the valley vet price for the dog's antibiotic. Much of what small animal vets do is charge city people a large chunk of money for stuff we do on the farm routinely.

 

[simme]

The problem with making more drugs prescription is that the vets no longer have to compete with other distribution channels over price.

People will still be able to purchase prescription drugs through distributors - vet supply houses, mail order retail such as valley vet, direct from some manufacturers, your local drug store, etc. Just need a script from a vet. Vets don't and won't have a monopoly on prescription medicine supply. Many meds already require a prescription. Look at the valley vet catalog. They sell many prescription drugs already. And list the several ways that scripts can be sent to them. It is not correct to say that vets will not have to compete with others over price.

 

[farmerjan]

Except that the local vet will often not want to write the prescription if he can make a few dollars... have seen that happen for other "script drugs" already.....

 

[wbvs58]

Just looking at this from another direction. How do you people keep drug residues out of the meat that is consumed domestically and in your export markets? When you take a cow to the salebarn do you have to sign a declaration that they are not inside any drug withholding interval for domestic or export slaughter or declare any treatments that would have them within these periods? Or do you rely on testing at slaughter to identify any residues in carcases. What are the consequences if you send a cull cow to market and she tests +ve for drug residues, do they come chasing after you? I know export markets take a pretty dim view if things show up in meat you are selling them.
I think your new reg's are more about trying to educate and minimise the risk for the above reasons. Withholding periods should be pointed out by the person dispensing the drugs each time and it included on the dispensing label. I am sure this won't happen unless a few of the people dispensing the drugs are prosecuted. I should imagine that there will be a bit of tightening up by the authorities on the Vets and Vet suppliers as well.
Remember not every producer supplying markets is professional and up to date and keep good records. A lot will be "she'll be right mate" type of people. Maybe there needs to be some type of accreditation to have access to some drugs similar to farm chemical purchase and use.

Ken

 

[simme]

Except that the local vet will often not want to write the prescription if he can make a few dollars... have seen that happen for other "script drugs" already.....

Be aware that most states require a veterinarian to provide a prescription instead of supplying the drugs if the client requests one.

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[wbvs58]

Be aware that most states require a veterinarian to provide a prescription instead of supplying the drugs if the client requests one.

AVMA advocacy

The AVMA represents the interests of veterinarians through strategically targeted advocacy in Congress, with regulatory agencies, and before the courts.

www.avma.org

Yes but it is reasonable to pay for that service. You don't go to the doctors for a prescription without running your card through their machine.

Ken

 

[kenny thomas]

Be aware that most states require a veterinarian to provide a prescription instead of supplying the drugs if the client requests one.

AVMA advocacy

The AVMA represents the interests of veterinarians through strategically targeted advocacy in Congress, with regulatory agencies, and before the courts.

www.avma.org

Pretty sure most vets will have something to say if someone walked in and told them they weren't going to pay the extra $5 or even $20 for the meds and then were told that they were required to write a prescription instead. Pretty sure they would just say no.

 

[Buck Randall]

Pretty sure most vets will have something to say if someone walked in and told them they weren't going to pay the extra $5 or even $20 for the meds and then were told that they were required to write a prescription instead. Pretty sure they would just say no.

I never say no, I just tell them they need to pay for my time to write the prescription. My time is worth more than whatever they might save by shopping elsewhere.

 

[TCRanch]

I'll buy magnets, ear tags, syringes/needles, etc. online or at one of the Co-Op's (shop local!) but I get all my vaccines and RX meds from the vet. Yes, it costs more, but I don't want to insult them by asking for a RX because they really don't make a huge margin in the first place on large animals. Plus, I use an autogenous pinkeye vaccine that my vet has made specifically for our area. And I've had after hours (even middle of the night) emergencies. Valley Vet doesn't make farm calls.

 

[simme]

Pretty sure most vets will have something to say if someone walked in and told them they weren't going to pay the extra $5 or even $20 for the meds and then were told that they were required to write a prescription instead. Pretty sure they would just say no.

That is the rule in the 40 states listed. Vets and other licensed people (surveyors, lawyers, barbers, etc) operate under the rules of the board they are licensed under. Whether the rules make sense or not. The vets already know the rules that affect their license. And it might not be correct to assume that the price at the vet is higher than the price someplace else. As Buck said, the vets charge for their services and the board doesn't set their prices for services. Vets agreed to follow the rules when they applied for a license. Here vets provide a script if requested.

 

[kenny thomas]

That is the rule in the 40 states listed. Vets and other licensed people (surveyors, lawyers, barbers, etc) operate under the rules of the board they are licensed under. Whether the rules make sense or not. The vets already know the rules that affect their license. And it might not be correct to assume that the price at the vet is higher than the price someplace else. As Buck said, the vets charge for their services and the board doesn't set their prices for services. Vets agreed to follow the rules when they applied for a license. Here vets provide a script if requested.

I don't think I ever heard of a vet here giving a script. But I never asked for one. But for now I don't have any problem getting what I need and don't expect that to change.

 

[simme]

Yes but it is reasonable to pay for that service. You don't go to the doctors for a prescription without running your card through their machine.

Ken

Agree that the customer needs to pay for the services received. Up to the provider to decide what the price is.

Like most old people, I take some daily drugs long term. I go yearly for a checkup and get my 90 day script with 3 refills. Sometimes, it may be 13 or 14 months before my "yearly" checkup. So I run out of pills before I get my new script. I just call and leave a message for the nurse requesting a new script be sent to my mail order pharmacy. They don't charge me for that. I know there is time involved in the communication with me, internal communication between nurse and doctor and doctor time to send the script. I am surprised they don't charge, but sure they make it up somewhere.

 

[kenny thomas]

Agree that the customer needs to pay for the services received. Up to the provider to decide what the price is.

Like most old people, I take some daily drugs long term. I go yearly for a checkup and get my 90 day script with 3 refills. Sometimes, it may be 13 or 14 months before my "yearly" checkup. So I run out of pills before I get my new script. I just call and leave a message for the nurse requesting a new script be sent to my mail order pharmacy. They don't charge me for that. I know there is time involved in the communication with me, internal communication between nurse and doctor and doctor time to send the script. I am surprised they don't charge, but sure they make it up somewhere.

I'm betting they charge your insurance. I have to go every 3 months and I feel the insurance is the reason

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

Say I have a milk cow with mastitis. I air ship milk samples and get the pathogen species emailed back to me within a day. Not only that, the vets tell what the bacteria or bacterias are sensitive to. The drug is in one of the intrat mammary infusions I could buy at the feed store and get it started.

With this, now I would have to go to the only large livestock vet in the county, who only sees large animals on Thursdays because of the lucritive child substitute small animal pet trade. Who charges $180 to bangs vaccinate my calf if I hauled her there, or plus the $350 farm call fee if she comes out, (From 10 or 12 miles away) plus a $60 an hour fee for the vet tech to hold the halter rope. Not only that, when we moved here this was the vet who let my horse die in a ditch because we didn't have a client patient relatiuonship. Mexican and Indian overseas pharmacies are looking better and better.

It might be that our elderly small animal vet who vaccinated Inga for Rabies, who no longer sees large animals because he is old, would write scripts for my dairy cows. He did hobble out to the parking lot, looked at my dehydrated scouring heifer calf and told me how to save her life by tubing her Re-Sorb from the feed store, no charge for advice. I would have gladly paid him.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

I use a vet 2 hrs away because the practice 1 hour away treats you like you know less than zero and you must be a criminal to want a bottle of anything.
As I type this my wife is in this awful clinic begging for a bottle of oxytocin!!! I told her to tell them to stick their bottle where the sun don't shine but she wants to see it through. This crap can really put me in a foul mood.

Begging. That's the right word for it. Neighbours run 300 head cow/calf. Vet was out at the farm a couple weeks ago, neighbours wife went to the Vet clinic 2 weeks later to get some meds........... had to answer a hundred questions before she could get the stuff. Frustrating.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

The problem has always been further up the chain but we get to pay the price.

It's always us at the end of the chain who pay the price. And get the blame, always.