kenny thomas
Well-known member
I had not understood it that it could not be sold by the bottle.
OTC Meds Scheduled to become Rx Only
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farmerjan
Well-known member
My vet told me that since we have a vet-client relationship he will be able to issue a bottle of something to us, and due to the distance away.... it will be perfectly legal to do so as long as he knows the operation and what we do.... it does not have to be by the dose... Can you imagine a dairy of 250-500 cows getting oxy by the dose ???? Or lute by the dose to sync 25 or 50 cows???
Contingent on your relationship with your vet. My vet is familiar with my herd/operation so probably not a problem. But for the farmer/rancher that rarely sees a vet, it could be one big suck.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
Understand that for sure. I don't anticipate any problems because I have a good vet/client relationship. But my vet that I work with is 2 hours away. She comes to the farm each spring for half a day and helps me work cattle. It satisfies her enough to be comfortable with what I describe when I might have an issue. 99% of my issues are pinkeye so up until now it's not been an issue. This winter I have had to give a few shots of Excede. We have had rain and cold since November so a few sick ones.
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
bulldog04
Well-known member
It sucks for us that work a full time job all day and get to look at your animals after vet hours. Come home to a sick animal and have to wait until the next day to treat them.
Hello Farmer Jan,
I actually DO "understand the whole principle of this." And I don't think insulting the intelligence of someone you do not know is the most neighborly thing to do, especially doing the insulting right outa the box in your very first conversation.
I posted the video because I believe this move —IF video is correct, and I believe it is to a point— this move will eventually remove ALL medicines from farm supply stores. It's not about Rx meds and it's not about the few people who have purchased medicine to medicate themselves; it's about CONTROL.
People who own animals will be forced to go to a vet every time their animal needs any medication— whether they are newbies or have experience; own a single animal or great herds; whether an animal needs something as simple as routine worming or something that actually requires veterinary expertise. Whether they have a relationship or not with a veterinarian.
Rules for prescribing/approved use will probably change too— just like it has with human doctors/meds. Label use is dictated by the government, which had been allowing doctors to prescribe as they see fit and is now restricting doctors— forcing them to treat illnesses in a govt approved one-size-fits-all way rather than doctors treating people as individuals who have an illness. The approved protocol can be contraindicative to the situation, as most people now understand.
Remember when doctors HAD to use an approved protocol for a certain disease? (Why some people began seeking out veterinary Ivermectin— which was one of the WHO's top ten most useful human medications before the plandemic.) Heard or know of anybody who died (many utterly alone) as a result of that debacle?
Many of us do.
You can bet that even the vets who have a personal relationship with a client will not jeopardize their practice to call in something if they are required by law to see the animal, if/when it comes to that. Consider having your vet see every animal you own for something as simple as routine worming. This is NOT just about people who use(d) vet meds for human needs. This is about the ever-tighter noose of control that governments are pushing. People who do not see this… well I won't muddy the water with that. Stupid is a highly subjective label, imho.
Can you buy up several years' supply of most meds? Depends on if you want to follow expiration dates. But those with the knowledge and means can prepare for the short run. If (actually when) we lose the ability to buy what we now routinely use for our own animals, there won't be a lot of lending— simply because there will be no ability to pay back in kind. Most vets are overworked as it is; adding to their workload will increase prices and decrease the finite amount of time they have to do their job. It ALL funnels down. TPTB have made no secret about wanting to destroy our food supply. It's an ongoing project and the end goal is total control. You see, I actually do understand the whole principle of this, Jan.
If you have a different opinion, no worries. We can agree to disagree, agreeably.
TexasJerseyMilker
Well-known member
Lots of people buy human medicnes on line from Mexico and India. I bought levothyroxine for instance.
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farmerjan
Well-known member
Excuse me, I did not know that the video was yours, I thought it was something you were referencing that was new on You-tube. This may have been my first conversation on your thread, but this has been discussed many times here on this forum. You may have become a member before me, but are not as active or you would be aware of all the different discussions on it by many of the members.
This whole control thing has been in place since in the 20"teens"... around 2015 or 2017 or thereabouts was when it was put into use...... the stage that was implemented in 2021 was the stage that most anyone paid any attention to.... It goes back to the original VFD that was in the late 1990's.... and the wholesale use of drugs in feed for animals... used to increase animal feed intake as some of the drugs often were.... as well as wholesale overuse of drugs to treat animals that may very well have not needed it... but if one was not looking good, then just treat the whole pen or the whole flock of chickens or whatever...
I totally agree it is control.... BUT... if it had not been abused when it first came out, there would not have been the revisions and "knuckling down" on the legitimate farmers ; those of us that work full time jobs and farm on the side, as well as the ones that are doing this full time; that are conscientiously trying to take care of the animals without overusing the drugs.
That goes along the same vein of the moms that took their kids to the dr everytime they had a cold and demanded antibiotics for their kids and now there are such resistant bugs that nothing will touch some of these illnesses. People who administered drugs to animals and did not follow through with the recommended or necessary FULL course to make sure that the "bug" was killed..... and then wound up with some bugs that managed to survive and mutate to be resistant... just like the wormers.....
I am a big supporter of the "alternative medicine" community.... and doctors having the ability to prescribe medicine "off-label".... God knows how many different treatments I tried for my knees for years to put off any type of replacements....
And yes, many on here have "spilled" ivermectin on ourselves during the last few years of the "covid BS insanity"......
The members on here that live in Canada have been dealing with this for years, as have the ones in Australia.... and they have relationships with their vets who have a working knowledge of the farmers and their farms. They do not have to have the vet out for every animal or for a routine worming even with the more restrictive laws and regulations they deal with. Vets are not stupid, and they are using common sense and judgement in treating their clients animals.
This is something that should have been addressed 20 years ago when there was talk about this.... and some of us did at the local levels.... and have continued to be active in the whole idea that this will hurt farmers in the long run....
Yes, we can address the needs for the short term... learning to do with less drugs is something that we have to get used to....
BUT..... it is still ESSENTIAL to have a vet and a good relationship with one, so that you can continue to farm in the most effective way and still stay within the laws.
I for one don't like the whole premise ID thing...and NAIS.... and fought it tooth and nail..... why should a "backyard farmer" with 50-100 purebred chickens, have to try to have each one individually ID'd.... and a broiler house only have to ID the house... how am I going to prove a fox or coon got 4 of my birds.... or face a penalty..... I am supposed to "report" everytime I take my horse off my property to someone else's place... or face being reported....to the authorities...?????
I can tell you all about bucking the system and fighting against more and more gov't control... the fact is that this is not a "new ruling"... it is part of a revised one from years ago... and it is part of the gov't trying to have their nose into a persons PRIVATE business and YES, to exert more and more control....
But it is also partly to stop the uninformed or ignorant "know it alls", who buy an animal and bring it home and decide it "needs a shot" and perpetuates the ability of these viruses and bacteria's and "bugs" to develop resistance to what we have available to fight diseases and illnesses with. And to stop those that give drugs, do not wait for the required withdrawal times, decide to sell this animal or it's milk or meat.... and then possibly create a health disaster for someone that consumes the milk or meat from a treated animal.... indiscriminant use of antibiotics has been rampant in the "pet/hobby" sector.... I have worked in it, with some of them, and seen it....
This whole control thing has been in place since in the 20"teens"... around 2015 or 2017 or thereabouts was when it was put into use...... the stage that was implemented in 2021 was the stage that most anyone paid any attention to.... It goes back to the original VFD that was in the late 1990's.... and the wholesale use of drugs in feed for animals... used to increase animal feed intake as some of the drugs often were.... as well as wholesale overuse of drugs to treat animals that may very well have not needed it... but if one was not looking good, then just treat the whole pen or the whole flock of chickens or whatever...
I totally agree it is control.... BUT... if it had not been abused when it first came out, there would not have been the revisions and "knuckling down" on the legitimate farmers ; those of us that work full time jobs and farm on the side, as well as the ones that are doing this full time; that are conscientiously trying to take care of the animals without overusing the drugs.
That goes along the same vein of the moms that took their kids to the dr everytime they had a cold and demanded antibiotics for their kids and now there are such resistant bugs that nothing will touch some of these illnesses. People who administered drugs to animals and did not follow through with the recommended or necessary FULL course to make sure that the "bug" was killed..... and then wound up with some bugs that managed to survive and mutate to be resistant... just like the wormers.....
I am a big supporter of the "alternative medicine" community.... and doctors having the ability to prescribe medicine "off-label".... God knows how many different treatments I tried for my knees for years to put off any type of replacements....
And yes, many on here have "spilled" ivermectin on ourselves during the last few years of the "covid BS insanity"......
The members on here that live in Canada have been dealing with this for years, as have the ones in Australia.... and they have relationships with their vets who have a working knowledge of the farmers and their farms. They do not have to have the vet out for every animal or for a routine worming even with the more restrictive laws and regulations they deal with. Vets are not stupid, and they are using common sense and judgement in treating their clients animals.
This is something that should have been addressed 20 years ago when there was talk about this.... and some of us did at the local levels.... and have continued to be active in the whole idea that this will hurt farmers in the long run....
Yes, we can address the needs for the short term... learning to do with less drugs is something that we have to get used to....
BUT..... it is still ESSENTIAL to have a vet and a good relationship with one, so that you can continue to farm in the most effective way and still stay within the laws.
I for one don't like the whole premise ID thing...and NAIS.... and fought it tooth and nail..... why should a "backyard farmer" with 50-100 purebred chickens, have to try to have each one individually ID'd.... and a broiler house only have to ID the house... how am I going to prove a fox or coon got 4 of my birds.... or face a penalty..... I am supposed to "report" everytime I take my horse off my property to someone else's place... or face being reported....to the authorities...?????
I can tell you all about bucking the system and fighting against more and more gov't control... the fact is that this is not a "new ruling"... it is part of a revised one from years ago... and it is part of the gov't trying to have their nose into a persons PRIVATE business and YES, to exert more and more control....
But it is also partly to stop the uninformed or ignorant "know it alls", who buy an animal and bring it home and decide it "needs a shot" and perpetuates the ability of these viruses and bacteria's and "bugs" to develop resistance to what we have available to fight diseases and illnesses with. And to stop those that give drugs, do not wait for the required withdrawal times, decide to sell this animal or it's milk or meat.... and then possibly create a health disaster for someone that consumes the milk or meat from a treated animal.... indiscriminant use of antibiotics has been rampant in the "pet/hobby" sector.... I have worked in it, with some of them, and seen it....
Silver
Well-known member
I think if the professional decision makers were honest with themselves they would recognize that microbial resistance is not generated on the ranch, be it small hobby types or larger enterprises. The percentage of cattle that are actually treated with an antibiotic is minuscule. The percentage of that minuscule number that are under dosed would be even smaller. Not even worth talking about. The problem has always been further up the chain but we get to pay the price.
TexasJerseyMilker
Well-known member
I think overseas pharmacys will be all over this.
When we first moved here the only large animal vet in the county, who only sees large animals on Thursdays, would not come out and put to sleep a horse that had fallen into a ravine and hind legs paralyzed. Why? Because we did not have a patient client relationship. My husband had to shoot him. Needless to say I am not thrilled with this vet.
This year, she would have charged almost $200 dollars to Bangs vaccinate my heifer and thats if I brought her there. If not, add a $350 farm call fee. I cancled that appointment. I have always vaccinated and wormed my own animals, thank God. Will that be the next thing that is illegal?
I don't give random ABX to animals, I'm a nurse. I have a couple of dairy cows. They might and probably will at some point in their lives get mastitis. I can send off milk samples to lab that can ID the pathogen and tell me what ABX to use. My only hope is my local elderly small animal dog vet who used to see large animals. I have relationship with him. He vaxed my dog for rabies and also told me how to save the life of a scouring calf. I hope he will script whatever the lab says for mastitis. If not, I am ordering from overseas to have ABX on hand.
I observe that both Canada and Austrailia have more Socialisic governments.
When we first moved here the only large animal vet in the county, who only sees large animals on Thursdays, would not come out and put to sleep a horse that had fallen into a ravine and hind legs paralyzed. Why? Because we did not have a patient client relationship. My husband had to shoot him. Needless to say I am not thrilled with this vet.
This year, she would have charged almost $200 dollars to Bangs vaccinate my heifer and thats if I brought her there. If not, add a $350 farm call fee. I cancled that appointment. I have always vaccinated and wormed my own animals, thank God. Will that be the next thing that is illegal?
I don't give random ABX to animals, I'm a nurse. I have a couple of dairy cows. They might and probably will at some point in their lives get mastitis. I can send off milk samples to lab that can ID the pathogen and tell me what ABX to use. My only hope is my local elderly small animal dog vet who used to see large animals. I have relationship with him. He vaxed my dog for rabies and also told me how to save the life of a scouring calf. I hope he will script whatever the lab says for mastitis. If not, I am ordering from overseas to have ABX on hand.
I observe that both Canada and Austrailia have more Socialisic governments.
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Silver
Well-known member
farmerjan
Well-known member
For anyone that is wondering what all will be further restricted, go to ...."pbs animal health".... they are an online/mailorder type company and have listed the "popular products that will require prescriptions in 2023" as a courtesy to their customers. It will help to get a better idea out to those that have not heard the actual drugs being restricted.
50/50Farms
Well-known member
This policy will kill more animals than it will save. And damn them for it. I made a thread a while back about helping a family member treat their cow, and these policies will lead to dead animals in the pastures of people like that section of my family. That particular family member has cows of a certain type for the specific reason of their own dietary health needs. They literally cannot afford the time and money to have to get a vet every time. Pardon my language but eff the people who came up with this.
I believe that was the wife that you spoke with, she said you came in one day and picked up a few things.
Big Creek
Well-known member
You are spot on 50/50
simme
Old Dumb Guy
I think I see some incorrect information in this thread. There was a statement that a person will need to see a vet in order to use a dewormer. Common cattle dewormers are not prescription drugs. They are available to purchase and use or misuse as you please. The June 2023 change does not include your dewormer. However misuse can and does lead to resistance to the dewormer and loss of effectiveness. Still, misleading to make statements or implications of needing to see a vet in order to deworm.
Having withdrawal times on drugs and random testing for residue at slaughter is an attempt to monitor and prevent traces of antibiotic in our food supply. People do not always follow the withdrawal times and the withdrawal times are based on a correct dosage of a drug. Regardless, antibiotic resistance occurs within the bacteria itself. Using a drug at a low dose or when it is not needed can help develop antibiotic resistance in a strain of bacteria that then circulates in nature. Regardless of whether the animal was slaughtered and entered the food chain. Withdrawal times alone do not stop resistance.
I don't find any FDA rule or proposed rule requiring all antibiotics to be dispensed as individual doses instead of a bottle. Pretty sure that chicken companies that still use antibiotics to treat chicken infections do not dispense individual doses to each chicken. Or feedlots treating animals in the sick pen. I suspect the discussion about individual doses as opposed to a bottle comes from private vet clinics concerned about their responsibility in regard to whether the animal owner is going to correctly use the product. A vet's livelihood depends on maintaining a license to practice. That is where that relationship comes into play. A vet that sells bottles of drugs to just anyone is taking some risk to his livelihood. A medical doctor that gets a request for a bottle of "just in case" drugs for a family member not yet sick is not likely to agree. Both the vet and medical doctor operate under similar licensing requirements. I know that there is plenty of room for debate about the issue. But consider all the facts and issues.
I can also say that sometimes vets have "special" prices and rules for high maintenance customers but will do most anything for their good relationship clients.
Some drugs are specific to species and should not be available for unlimited general use. Micotil is an effective drug, but not appropriate to treat respiratory issues in your family.
Having withdrawal times on drugs and random testing for residue at slaughter is an attempt to monitor and prevent traces of antibiotic in our food supply. People do not always follow the withdrawal times and the withdrawal times are based on a correct dosage of a drug. Regardless, antibiotic resistance occurs within the bacteria itself. Using a drug at a low dose or when it is not needed can help develop antibiotic resistance in a strain of bacteria that then circulates in nature. Regardless of whether the animal was slaughtered and entered the food chain. Withdrawal times alone do not stop resistance.
I don't find any FDA rule or proposed rule requiring all antibiotics to be dispensed as individual doses instead of a bottle. Pretty sure that chicken companies that still use antibiotics to treat chicken infections do not dispense individual doses to each chicken. Or feedlots treating animals in the sick pen. I suspect the discussion about individual doses as opposed to a bottle comes from private vet clinics concerned about their responsibility in regard to whether the animal owner is going to correctly use the product. A vet's livelihood depends on maintaining a license to practice. That is where that relationship comes into play. A vet that sells bottles of drugs to just anyone is taking some risk to his livelihood. A medical doctor that gets a request for a bottle of "just in case" drugs for a family member not yet sick is not likely to agree. Both the vet and medical doctor operate under similar licensing requirements. I know that there is plenty of room for debate about the issue. But consider all the facts and issues.
I can also say that sometimes vets have "special" prices and rules for high maintenance customers but will do most anything for their good relationship clients.
Some drugs are specific to species and should not be available for unlimited general use. Micotil is an effective drug, but not appropriate to treat respiratory issues in your family.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
you should only use Micotil on a family member you really want rid of.
Seriously if you inject it and then call the poison hotline they will send you to the ER and they will tell the ER how to make you comfortable until you die.
Seriously if you inject it and then call the poison hotline they will send you to the ER and they will tell the ER how to make you comfortable until you die.
TexasJerseyMilker
Well-known member
Is Simme refering to this? "I have always vaccinated and wormed my own animals, thank God. Will that be the next thing that is illegal? " 
Hey look, you can even get stuff to doctor your own elephant.
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simme
Old Dumb Guy
No. I was commenting on the statement in post #27: "People who own animals will be forced to go to a vet every time their animal needs any medication— whether they are newbies or have experience; own a single animal or great herds; whether an animal needs something as simple as routine worming or something that actually requires veterinary expertise. Whether they have a relationship or not with a veterinarian."Is Simme refering to this? "I have always vaccinated and wormed my own animals, thank God. Will that be the next thing that is illegal? "
That statement is just not true and is misleading.
