old angus semen is not worth more

[TEXANGRANCH]

It really puzzles me why these silly breeds like char, beefmaster, etc. have bulls that after they die their semen skyrockets on value??? Angus always seem to be worth less in that case unless the bull was very good, and very young at death. I dont know why breeders of these breeds would pay all this extra money to go backwards in progress.

 

[BA]

New doesn't mean progress. Are you trying to say that all bulls now are better than the old stand by's? I don't think so! EXT, E161, Future Direction, 23-4, many bulls are worth more now than when they were alive.

 

[TEXANGRANCH]

I didnt say all bulls, I said typically. I understand that there are bulls that cannot be improved, QAS 23-4 is one of them. I also underdstand that new doesnt mean better. But progress must follow the industry, and the industry is always changing. If a bull was great and the best in 1952 should we breed to him if we had straws available? No, his gentics arent what the industry is looking for today. All that I am saying is typically the angus ai breeder moves on to younger bulls that have a huge potential once a popular sire has died and the industry has moved past that bull instead of playing the whos got the most money game. Pine drive big sky was great, but tell me that you would breed to him today with all the other choices out there.

 

[houstoncutter]

A bulls numbers can be cooked, and most savy commercial breeders know it... The older bulls have a lot more data, and many more registrations in many different types of herds. Angus, Limi, or who knows what breeds epds very greatly with those young bulls until they are proven. I personally know a Angus breeder and a Limousin breeder, who have large herds that cook the BW epds. All you have to do is cut back on a cows diet in the last trimester, result smaller calf. Then you pour the feed to her after birth, result high WW and YW epd. SHAZAM.......you got a curve bender animal....NOT

 

[dun]

A bulls numbers can be cooked, and most savy commercial breeders know it... The older bulls have a lot more data, and many more registrations in many different types of herds. Angus, Limi, or who knows what breeds epds very greatly with those young bulls until they are proven. I personally know a Angus breeder and a Limousin breeder, who have large herds that cook the BW epds. All you have to do is cut back on a cows diet in the last trimester, result smaller calf. Then you pour the feed to her after birth, result high WW and YW epd. SHAZAM.......you got a curve bender animal....NOT

It's even easier then that. Report 10 lbs less BW and 20 lbs more WW

dun

 

[SEC]

I think the switch to bulls people are chasing today are similar to the 1950s. Why else would these moderate, grass fed programs be getting extra interest with the genetics they are using.

Pine Drive wasn't great in most cases so hopefullly we don't use him anymore.

How you feed or report weights doesn't affect the EPD's as much as one thinks.

Ratios, ratios, ratios

In the words Doc whose posts I love to read.....

Don't get me started!

 

[Aero]

after they die their semen skyrockets on value???

one simple reason might be because there isnt going to be anymore semen like that produced ever again.

just because you think those bulls arent very good, doesnt mean other people think the same. if prices stay high, that is because someone is paying it. if they go up and then back down, there might be a different story.

 

[TEXANGRANCH]

there are breeders out there who lie, I think they are setting their breed back by misleading other breeders to use his bulls. Isnt the purpose of breeding purebreds to #1 make money, and #2 improve the breed? I know that numbers can be cooked, however ai bulls data comes from many hundreds of cattlemen who dont hold a share of that bull. They have little to gain or lose by cooking the numbers. One bull that was cooked was GTMAX. Remember him? His daughters were like a -1000 in milk epd, I found that out the year after I took a herd of his daughters to calve. I am still angry about that, he was supposed to be a +23 milk epd his 1st year with ABS.

 

[Aero]

A bulls numbers can be cooked, and most savy commercial breeders know it... The older bulls have a lot more data, and many more registrations in many different types of herds. Angus, Limi, or who knows what breeds epds very greatly with those young bulls until they are proven. I personally know a Angus breeder and a Limousin breeder, who have large herds that cook the BW epds. All you have to do is cut back on a cows diet in the last trimester, result smaller calf. Then you pour the feed to her after birth, result high WW and YW epd. SHAZAM.......you got a curve bender animal....NOT

where did this come from? did the paranoia have to escape some time and this thread was the place? i think the thread was about the price of semen when bulls die.


yes... we all know it happens; accept it and use highly proven bulls if you want to avoid it.

 

[Brandonm2]

Part of it COULD be that there are just so many more Angus out there. A popular Angus bowl can achieve high accuracy FASTER than can a similarly accepted Hereford or CHar so the people who won't use a bull until there is 90% accuracy for weaning wt. are looking at a much younger Angus bull than with other breeds. A really popular bull like a Pine Drive Big Sky or a Lovana or a Scothcap or EXT or New Design 878 puts a lot of progeny out there fairly quickly. Everybody who was paying attention has already used or at least seen those bull's progeny. People either got on board the train and have that bull in the pedigree of a bunch of their cows or elected NOT to. A Hereford is typically DEAD before he has a thousand daughters in the computer. An ANgus on the other hand, if he is promoted hard by ABS or Select Sires, can have a 1000 daughters in 3 or 4 years.

 

[MikeC]

It really puzzles me why these silly breeds like char, beefmaster, etc. have bulls that after they die their semen skyrockets on value??? Angus always seem to be worth less in that case unless the bull was very good, and very young at death. I dont know why breeders of these breeds would pay all this extra money to go backwards in progress.

You've answered your own question there Bubba.

"Angus always seem to be worth less in that case unless the bull was very good,"

I'll refrain from chastising your idiotic statement that "these "SILLY" breeds like char, beefmaster, etc." are the only ones whose semen price may climb after death.

Have you ever thought that by the time a bull is thoroughly proven he might be getting up in age?

 

[Frankie]

It really puzzles me why these silly breeds like char, beefmaster, etc. have bulls that after they die their semen skyrockets on value??? Angus always seem to be worth less in that case unless the bull was very good, and very young at death. I dont know why breeders of these breeds would pay all this extra money to go backwards in progress.

Maybe the bulls of other breeds are very good. If it's ok for Angus people to pay more for the semen of very old, good, bulls, why isn't it ok to pay more for other breeds old bulls. "Good" is in the opinion of the buyer.

 

[SCRUBS620]

It really puzzles me why these silly breeds like char, beefmaster, etc. have bulls that after they die their semen skyrockets on value??? Angus always seem to be worth less in that case unless the bull was very good, and very young at death. I dont know why breeders of these breeds would pay all this extra money to go backwards in progress.

I agree with most of what I have read on here. One thing I would like to suggest is that there are probably alot more angus bulls being produced now versus other breeds and it has probably been this way for a while. The angus market gets saturated even for the good bulls whereas the other breeds have a more limited selection. What you refer to as "Silly Breeds" are probably even more limited. Basic law of supply and demand IMO.

 

[Nebraska Sandhills]

Any good bull should produce a son better than himself.

 

[MikeC]

Any good bull should produce a son better than himself.

If you can find a cow better than his mama.

 

[houstoncutter]

A bulls numbers can be cooked, and most savy commercial breeders know it... The older bulls have a lot more data, and many more registrations in many different types of herds. Angus, Limi, or who knows what breeds epds very greatly with those young bulls until they are proven. I personally know a Angus breeder and a Limousin breeder, who have large herds that cook the BW epds. All you have to do is cut back on a cows diet in the last trimester, result smaller calf. Then you pour the feed to her after birth, result high WW and YW epd. SHAZAM.......you got a curve bender animal....NOT

where did this come from? did the paranoia have to escape some time and this thread was the place? i think the thread was about the price of semen when bulls die.


yes... we all know it happens; accept it and use highly proven bulls if you want to avoid it.

Paranoia, no. Just an honest assesment.... Older bulls have much better proven record. I believe that is what the thread is referring to, why the cost skyrockets. Many breeds do not sell their bulls like Angus breeders do. They sell the bull outright to the individual or group of investors and due not retain any semen rights.... Many of the Angus bulls are sold with a retention of a certain percentage of semen rights. Many times the bulls of other breeds will have had only limited collection...So the price will skyrocket..Angus breeders have their warts, but they do an excellant job of policing their epds.... Know I guess if you think the black helicopters are after me, so be it

 

[Brandonm2]

Any good bull should produce a son better than himself.

If you can find a cow better than his mama.

Well said! Great cows are probably just as common as are great bulls; but you have to dig through a lot more "common" or even "flawed" cows to find them and IF her owner realizes what he has.......the cost of obtaining those genetics may not be nearly as affordable.

 

[MikeC]

Any good bull should produce a son better than himself.

If you can find a cow better than his mama.

Well said! Great cows are probably just as common as are great bulls; but you have to dig through a lot more "common" or even "flawed" cows to find them and IF her owner realizes what he has.......the cost of obtaining those genetics may not be nearly as affordable.

Yep. All most of us here talk about are bulls.

Good cows are the key to raising good bulls.