Nice Angus Slogan!

[Frankie]

Sorry, hit the "submit" button too quickly. I wasn't through.

How anyone can read that spec and conclude that anything but Hereford x British cattle are acceptable for CHB is beyond me. Like I've said before, there may be a calf here and there that could be marked close enough to slip in that has some continental or brahman breeding, but not very many and it would have to be a small percentage of the calf's blood to pass the phenotypic requirements. For the genotypic cattle, you would have to lie on the affadavit and the parents' registration papers you provide at sale time, and then you will probably be caught because anything other than Hereford X British just doesn't look like what's outlined in the phenotypic specs.

Manure. That white face and white markings take generations to breed out. An animal with very little actual Hereford blood could meet these specifications. Today's Simmentals,Gelbvieh, Salers, and Limousin have moderated frame and turned black. Many of them can pass for Angus and that's a big part of the CHB inventory, black baldies. There's no more assurance in these specs that the animal is mostly Hereford or not Continental than there is in CAB that the animal is Angus.

You guys need to realize that not everyone plays fast and loose with rules like some apparently do with the CAB specs.

:lol: Right. The buyers in the feedlots and the packers suddenly get honest when they're buying for CHB! Get real.

Just because some CAB people do it doesn't mean CHB does it.

And now your feelings are hurt. :roll:

The whole program is based on Hereford beef, and no other beef has the same qualities. You put a bunch of Simmy x Black Limo cattle in there and sell the select carcasses under CHB's label and see what happens. They would be undermining their own business if they allowed other cattle in.

Who is "they?" Isn't CHB like CAB in that the Association owns not a single head of cattle? "They" are the sale barn buyers and feedlot operators and packers. They don't give a hoot whether the animal is a Hereford or not. They want something that will meet the criteria and a black baldy will do that, no matter how much Hereford blood it has running through it's veins. A Hereford crossed with Jeanne's black Simmental bull will meet the CHB VISUAL SPECS just as well as one crossed with the Angus bull EXT. I sincerely doubt that if you put a Hereford steak and a breed X steak in front of people, they'd be able to pick out which was a Hereford (Brahman excepted).

 

[Frankie]

I haven't been bashing the Angus breed, and it seems to me that since you don't like being bashed that you wouldn't bash another. With a little research, I could probably come up with a breed that is black by origin and not via Angus.

I'm not bashing Herefords. But the facts are any animal with Hereford type markings is eligible for CHB. Are you arguing with that? For some reason, Hereford people like to think their branded beef is pure Hereford, but it's not true. Look at the specs. I don't think pointing that out is bashing.

Do all the research you want. There are a few other naturally black breeds, but we all know what turned the cowherd in the US black and it's not Holstein or Black Fresien.

 

[Frankie]

I think he got you here Frankie.

Now go to your corner and you can come out and play when I say you can! :lol: :lol:

You wish.

 

[Kent]

I understand it completely. I've changed your emphasis. "Define visual indicators...." If it looks like a Hereford, it can CHB. If an animal is black and meets the other criteria, it can be CAB. Where's the difference. It's a visual inspection, based on the opinion of the packer.

And it's all the opinion of the person sorting cattle. If it LOOKS like a Hereford, it can be CHB. If it's black it can be CAB. I don't see a difference.

And if you get a cut of CHB from an animal selected by genotype, you know you're getting Hereford beef. The AngusSource tag will do the same thing. Tell me, is there a notation on the menu in the resturant that tells us if the CHB in front of you is phenotype or genotype selected? I doubt it. From what I've read most CHB, by far, is selected by genotype and that's the opinion of the guy doing the sorting.

Here are the differences. There is not a single animal or cross of breeds that LOOKS like what those CHB phenotypic specs describe except a Hereford or Hereford x British cross. Those are the only animals that will fit those visual specs. That is a fact, whether you want to admit it or not. There are many breeds besides Angus which can produce a black calf. That is also a fact, whether you want to admit it or not. In 1978 or 79, when CAB was started, maybe black could only come from Angus, but not now. That is the difference. If other breeds spent 25 years putting the dominant Hereford markings on their cattle, which they could do, and you had a dozen breeds that looked like a Hereford but only carried 1/8 or less Hereford blood, then it would be the same as CAB and black animals today.

Secondly, it is not an opinion of the sorters and their supervisors, and the graders and their supervisors, and the auditors (many people, not just one). No, it is not an opinion or opinions, it is a set of specifications which even I could follow, and I have not been trained.

The bottom line is this. The phenotypic and genotypic specs are very clear, and only Hereford and Hereford x British cattle can meet those specs because only those cattle look like that. So the question then becomes, are you saying that the CHB sorters and graders are dishonest or incompetent? They would have to be one of those two for your points to be true.

 

[Kent]

Sorry, hit the "submit" button too quickly. I wasn't through.

How anyone can read that spec and conclude that anything but Hereford x British cattle are acceptable for CHB is beyond me. Like I've said before, there may be a calf here and there that could be marked close enough to slip in that has some continental or brahman breeding, but not very many and it would have to be a small percentage of the calf's blood to pass the phenotypic requirements. For the genotypic cattle, you would have to lie on the affadavit and the parents' registration papers you provide at sale time, and then you will probably be caught because anything other than Hereford X British just doesn't look like what's outlined in the phenotypic specs.

Manure. That white face and white markings take generations to breed out. An animal with very little actual Hereford blood could meet these specifications. Today's Simmentals,Gelbvieh, Salers, and Limousin have moderated frame and turned black. Many of them can pass for Angus and that's a big part of the CHB inventory, black baldies. There's no more assurance in these specs that the animal is mostly Hereford or not Continental than there is in CAB that the animal is Angus.

You guys need to realize that not everyone plays fast and loose with rules like some apparently do with the CAB specs.

:lol: Right. The buyers in the feedlots and the packers suddenly get honest when they're buying for CHB! Get real.

Just because some CAB people do it doesn't mean CHB does it.

And now your feelings are hurt. :roll:

The whole program is based on Hereford beef, and no other beef has the same qualities. You put a bunch of Simmy x Black Limo cattle in there and sell the select carcasses under CHB's label and see what happens. They would be undermining their own business if they allowed other cattle in.

Who is "they?" Isn't CHB like CAB in that the Association owns not a single head of cattle? "They" are the sale barn buyers and feedlot operators and packers. They don't give a hoot whether the animal is a Hereford or not. They want something that will meet the criteria and a black baldy will do that, no matter how much Hereford blood it has running through it's veins. A Hereford crossed with Jeanne's black Simmental bull will meet the CHB VISUAL SPECS just as well as one crossed with the Angus bull EXT. I sincerely doubt that if you put a Hereford steak and a breed X steak in front of people, they'd be able to pick out which was a Hereford (Brahman excepted).

If, as an Angus breeder, you can't tell the difference between a black Simmental, Gelbvieh, Salers, or Limo and your own breed, then I can see how you have reached your conclusions regarding CHB. :roll: Name one cross that could meet those visual specs that is not Hereford x British. You can't do it.

CHB has its own packing plants. There are two now and two more are planned as growth dictates. The packers don't have to "get honest" when they buy for CHB because they buy only for CHB. Those specs are the plant specs, and AHA does oversee the program even though they don't own the cattle. They spun off Red Oak Hereford for that. I guess you answered my question in my other reply to you right here. You think CHB is dishonest. OK.

Feelings hurt? Not on some Internet message board by an Angus woman in Oklahoma. :lol: Nothing against message boards, Angus, women, or Oklahoma, but I'm a little thicker skinned than that. ;-)

No, Jeanne's Simmy bull, as nice as he is, would not produce a calf that looked like a Hereford x Angus cross. Nice try. Have you ever used a Hereford bull? On anything? Or did you just get straight into the Angus breed and never own anything else? :roll: Fine if you did that, but as a man who has had Herefords all his life, you're not going to be able to pull the wool over my eyes as to what Hereford crosses look like. I've seen them crossed with every exotic you can think of except Tuli and Watusi, which are also excluded in those specs, BTW. :lol:

 

[Kent]

I think he got you here Frankie.

Now go to your corner and you can come out and play when I say you can! :lol: :lol:

You wish.

Dang it, Mike, I might have had her if you hadn't a started pokin' her with that stick!

 

[C HOLLAND]

More Black Angus beef with KRYLON

 

[Frankie]

If, as an Angus breeder, you can't tell the difference between a black Simmental, Gelbvieh, Salers, or Limo and your own breed, then I can see how you have reached your conclusions regarding CHB. :roll: Name one cross that could meet those visual specs that is not Hereford x British. You can't do it.

There is a great deal of variety in the Angus breed and some of those other breeds are actually 3/4 Angus, so I could, indeed, have some problems seeing the difference. I don't have any reason to believe a sorter at a packing plant wouldn't miss some, too. I did name a cross. Tell me what difference you'd see in a calf from homo black and polled Limousin (1/2 Angus) bred to a Hereford cow. Or a 1/4 Angus Simmental bull, homo black and polled. Both these breeds have moderated frame a great deal. You say you can tell the difference, I doubt it.

CHB has its own packing plants. There are two now and two more are planned as growth dictates. The packers don't have to "get honest" when they buy for CHB because they buy only for CHB. Those specs are the plant specs, and AHA does oversee the program even though they don't own the cattle. They spun off Red Oak Hereford for that. I guess you answered my question in my other reply to you right here. You think CHB is dishonest. OK.

Only two? Are you sure? Back in 2003 there were three, Swift, National and Greater Omaha. Did they lose one of those? And none of those three were dedicated to CHB. Have they changed since then? CAB oversees their program, too. No, I don't think CHB is dishonest. The specs are out there and the packers meet them as best they can.

Feelings hurt? Not on some Internet message board by an Angus woman in Oklahoma. :lol: Nothing against message boards, Angus, women, or Oklahoma, but I'm a little thicker skinned than that. ;-)

I'm sure all the Oklahoma women raising Angus are greatful for your patience.

No, Jeanne's Simmy bull, as nice as he is, would not produce a calf that looked like a Hereford x Angus cross. Nice try.

Why not? He's moderate framed, he may throw spots, but let's assume he won't. Tell me how you will be able to pick his calf out as compared to an EXT calf. They'll both have Hereford markings, both be thick and moderate framed. No blaze faces, no spots. How will you tell the difference.

Have you ever used a Hereford bull? On anything? Or did you just get straight into the Angus breed and never own anything else? :roll:

No. We looked into Herefords when we got our first commercial heifers. They were a mix of all breeds and we wanted a purebred bull on them. Butsome of them had horns, plus the Angus gave them a uniform color, and last but not least, Angus had EPDs. So we went with Angus and I'm so glad we did.

Fine if you did that, but as a man who has had Herefords all his life, you're not going to be able to pull the wool over my eyes as to what Hereford crosses look like. I've seen them crossed with every exotic you can think of except Tuli and Watusi, which are also excluded in those specs, BTW. :lol:

Continental cattle have changed a great deal in the last 5-7 years. Even if YOU could tell the difference in a calf sired by a black Simmental as opposed to Angus, I question if the guy working at the packing plant can or cares. That doesn't make him dishonest, just doing the best he can do to make a living.

 

[Tod Dague]

There is not a single animal or cross of breeds that LOOKS like what those CHB phenotypic specs describe except a Hereford or Hereford x British cross.

I have seen simis that are marked like Herefords I would be willing to bet that there are simi crosses that would pass physical inspection.I would also bet a lot of the calves passing for CHB are not 100% British breeding.

I don't see much difference in the two programs other than markings.

 

[Brandonm2]

No, Jeanne's Simmy bull, as nice as he is, would not produce a calf that looked like a Hereford x Angus cross. Nice try. Have you ever used a Hereford bull? On anything? Or did you just get straight into the Angus breed and never own anything else? :roll: Fine if you did that, but as a man who has had Herefords all his life, you're not going to be able to pull the wool over my eyes as to what Hereford crosses look like.

I think Frankie has us on this point. If somebody used Macho on Hereford cows, I doubt seriously that I could recognize the Simmental influence. I have seen Hereford x black Simmental calves and they look just like a run of the mill black baldie too me. A grader who sees 500 baldies a day would in all likelihood declare them CHB if the other specs were met.

 

[VanC]

Or you'd think if you were eating CHB it would be Hereford, but not necessarily. The actual CHB requirements are that an animal must exhibit some or all of the traditional markings of a Hereford, not actually have Hereford blood in them. That's no different than the black requirement for CAB.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/sc ... laspec.htm

I think this thread got a little bit off track in responding to and defending this statement. Yes, the CHB specs require 100% English breeding, and, yes, it would be difficult for most to tell the difference between a Macho sired calf and an EXT sired calf. But the assertion that the CHB specs don't actually require Hereford blood is just plain wrong. Any Hereford marked calf probably has a 99% chance or more of having Hereford blood. A black hided calf might or might not have Angus blood. Didn't used to be that way, but now it's pretty much a crapshoot.

Not saying CHB is better than CAB or vice versa, but there's a big difference between the specs, in my opinion.

 

[Texan]

Back to the slogan.....

"And remember - it's not how BLACK they are, it's how GOOD they are!"

I think it's a great slogan. To me, it demonstrates a certain integrity that all breeders should have, Angus included.

In spite of the demand for black cow settlers, I don't think it's good enough for an Angus breeder to sell plain black bulls. An Angus breeder with plenty of integrity will be selling plain black steers.

 

[Kent]

:lol: You guys crack me up. I have personally owned a black Gelbvieh bull and seen the Hereford crosses. I have seen a John Howard (local Sim breeder) black Simmy bull crossed on Hereford cows. I have seen a Kip Jones (local Limo breeder) bull crossed on Hereford cows. I personally crossbreed Angus on Hereford cows and have for years. I'm talking about herds of 25 or more cows a year for all these bulls, not one Hereford cow out of a bunch of mixed up sale barn cows. The Hereford white face looks different on Angus than on Continentals. The white extends farther around the side of the face and over the jaw in most cases. The body type is also different. I can't believe people who breed Angus can't tell these differences.

I have sold calves through CHB and had the buyer question a couple of 50% Hereford / 50% Angus calves because they had less than 50% white faces. I had to show my reg. papers on the registered Hereford cows and reg. Angus bull plus my calving records matching cow and calf ear tags (which I'm sure someone will say could be forged :roll: ). The group was not all from registered stock, so I didn't sign the affadavit at first, choosing to go by the phenotype spec. The Angus bull that was the sire of those two calves (and others in the group) was a white cutter and all his calves were mottled, some with less than 30-40% white faces. We ended up segregating the calves into two groups, one genotype group and one phenotype group. The genotype group was reg. Herf cows by reg. Angus bull. The phenotype group was Herf bull on baldy cows ( herf x angus). I thought for a minute I might have to haul those two all the way back from Knoxville, TN, which is where I had to take them to be put together with others to make trailer loads. They are strict on these specs at buying time because they are strict at the packer.

Some of you may be talking about a few calves at a time slipping through. I have already said that will happen. But when you take 50 calves out of one herd, if half of them are blaze faced or show other Continental influence, they will cull the whole bunch because they know they've got Simmy or Limo in them.

Y'all get back to me when you have used a Hereford bull on your black Simmy cows and sneaked the calves through CHB. Until then, you're just stating opinions about a subject you have no experience with. You have no backup for anything you have said except "I bet it happens". I don't know why you want it to be true so badly, but apparently you do. :help:

 

[Kent]

Disregard this.

 

[dun]

I know it's easy to pick out a Hereford vs a Simmenthal sired calf so here's a quiz.

All the calves are out of straighbred Angus cows, 1 black the others red. All are AI sired by either a Simmenthal or A Polled Hereford.

dun

 

[3MR]

Am I allowed to play?? :lol:

 

[dun]

Am I allowed to play?? :lol:

Nope, you and a couple of others would probably cheat

dun

 

[3MR]

Am I allowed to play?? :lol:

Nope, you and a couple of others would probably cheat

dun

Who Me :roll: Never in a millions years ;-)

 

[El_Putzo]

Am I allowed to play?? :lol:

Nope, you and a couple of others would probably cheat

dun

Them calves look familiar?!?!? I'm guessing I can't play either?

Wouldn't make a difference anyway, I'd probably get them all mixed up anyway.

 

[3MR]

Am I allowed to play?? :lol:

Nope, you and a couple of others would probably cheat

dun

Them calves look familiar?!?!? I'm guessing I can't play either?

Wouldn't make a difference anyway, I'd probably get them all mixed up anyway.

Yeah, its just not fair. when I finally know the answer to a question on here im not allowed to answer. :lol: :lol: :lol: