Magpie said:
Let's be clear here. You're telling us you have a yearling (May '04-May '05) bull that weighs 717 lbs? And that you consider him a good prospect for a herd sire?
I don't understand what "threat" you're talking about?
And this is why breed associations maintain records. So a new breeder can build on other breeder's experiences and genetics to be successful.
You're the one with the black Longhorn bull that you're so proud of. My question is why would anyone use the red one, if he is actually a 700+ pound yearling.
Well, we all have our opinions. Until I'm absolutely sure that you have a 700+ yearling, I really can't comment. As for colors, you said in an earlier post that you never knew what you'd get in breeding Longhorns.
Only purebred, registered cattle have EPDs. I sincerely doubt that your bull is going to be breeding that kind of cattle, therefore he's not likely to "hurt" anyone's EPDs.
A 2000 pound mature beef bull is not an extreme.
Please provide information showing that taking bulls over 2000 poses problems for other beef breeds? The beef semen company catalogs are full of bulls with mature weights over 2000 lbs. I wouldn't step back from using a bull with that kind of mature weight. In the beef business we're selling pounds of meat, not color, not horn.
Thanks for the clarification.
You do know that just because a bull passes a test at 14 months old, that doesn't mean that at 18 months he can pass? A BSE within 30 days of a sale is a generally accepted procedure.
Which AI standards do you strive for?
He didn't follow through because he's a commercial cattleman who had the one Longhorn cow because he liked to look at her. They kept every daughter she had and even after two or three generations of using Angus bulls, they'd get a spotted calf and it would bring less money than their solid black calves. IMO, it doesn't matter why it happened; it matters that it cost him money every few years.
I'm sure the Continental breeders would disagree with your comment. Some breeds are easier pulls than others, I've been told. My limited experience with them was enough to make me buy Angus bulls. But I think today most Continental breeds have lines of "easy calving bulls". That particular cattleman was wanting to get the horns off his cattle, too, and the Angus bull did that for him.
So we should expect EPDs on Longhorns soon?
So you don't have any reliable information on whether the beef type Longhorns are easier calving than traditional Longhorns? You can use common sense, but you can't dictate what kinds of cattle the bull will be used on. All the research that I've read tells us the more a calf weighs, the more likely there will be calving difficulties. And you say you've got at least one calf that weighed more than you liked.
So what is the "main" focus of your herd? You have bought an almost solid black bull. I believe that was to go with the market trend of beef cattle. It isn't the traditional Longhorn color/marking. You keep referring to a more "beefy" type animal. That would lead most sensible people to think you're trying to breed more "beef" into your herd, not necessarily the breed.
No, in your post you said they were such good terminal cross cattle they almost disappeared. That's very different than the fact that ranchers discovered the smaller percentage of Longhorn blood a cow had, the better her calf would perform.
It's not, but it should be viewed as propaganda. Everyone should read every breed association's information with an eye for facts and references. Some breeds actually provide references for their claims.
I have never said Longhorns don't have a place in the beef business. I have stated that there are people who have developed a niche market for their cattle and are doing well. But, according to posts I've read online, that by trying to turn the Longhorn into a "beef" breed, you will damage it's reputation for easy calving.
In my opinion, based on what I've see traditional Longhorn breeders write, he's too big for the Longhorn breed. From my experience in the beef business, he's too small for serious commercial use. Therein lies the dilemma of the Longhorn breeder.
No, I mentioned that "they love the animals" because they aren't in it for the money. That doesn't reflect on you at all. Most of the cattlemen in my county probably haven't actually made money over the last 15 years, but they love the lifestyle. Hopefully, with the cattle prices today, they are actually making money. I'd guess that the majority posting on this board don't make a living from their cattle. I don't.
I'm sorry. Did I give you the impression that I cared why Longhorn colors were unpredictable? It's irrelevant to me. The bottom line is that buyers at the sale barns will discount spotted calves as Longhorns, whether they are or not.
OK
Ah, the box again. Since I like to know where I am before I change direction, I need more information. What kind of box? If it's a plain old square cardboard box, is the lid open or closed? If closed, I see four sides and a top since it's setting on the bottom. Is it a small box I can hold in my hand? Then I see four sides, a top and a bottom. Is it a huge box setting on the warehouse floor, then I only see one side...at a time. Using your imagination is a wonderful thing, but in the beef business, we're still selling the most quality meat for the most we can get for it. Imagining that your 700+ lb yearling bull (if that's a correct figure) will sire calves that will grow well enough to be profitable in the commercial cattle busines is only that: imagination.
r/w bull - platform scale weight on 5-14-05 717 lbs, hip height 50", born May 10, 2004, bw: 65 lbs, hip height 26". WDA as of that day, 1.95 according to cattlemax
Let's be clear here. You're telling us you have a yearling (May '04-May '05) bull that weighs 717 lbs? And that you consider him a good prospect for a herd sire?
the red and white bull is the current top of my own little beef program, how on earth can his type be a threat to crossbreeding?????
I don't understand what "threat" you're talking about?
yes, other people before me have much better weights, but then they have spent many many years more at this, than i.
And this is why breed associations maintain records. So a new breeder can build on other breeder's experiences and genetics to be successful.
why in on earth would i, or for that matter anyone choose the black steer type to use in any breeding program, let alone a crossbreeding one?
You're the one with the black Longhorn bull that you're so proud of. My question is why would anyone use the red one, if he is actually a 700+ pound yearling.
the red and white young bull is what is my mental picture, of what i would consider a beefy style young longhorn bull suitable for crossbreeding purposes. i am working on changing the color pattern. his pedigree is full of showstock both top and bottom.
Well, we all have our opinions. Until I'm absolutely sure that you have a 700+ yearling, I really can't comment. As for colors, you said in an earlier post that you never knew what you'd get in breeding Longhorns.
and why would you think that my red/white young bull would hurt the epd's of putting low birthweight calves on the ground for crossbreeding, because he, and my black senior herd sire, is what i am talking about when i talk about a beefy style longhorn bull for crossbreeding?
Only purebred, registered cattle have EPDs. I sincerely doubt that your bull is going to be breeding that kind of cattle, therefore he's not likely to "hurt" anyone's EPDs.
i do agree that taking extremes in anything is not good. that is why i am comfortable with my 1780 lb black bull with a hip height of 58" that you have already seen pics of.
there are more than just several of the 1 ton registered longhorn bulls in the longhorn industry. these represent the extreme of what can and could be done.
A 2000 pound mature beef bull is not an extreme.
but, taking bulls consistantly well past the one ton mark, poses problems that other beef breeds have already found. i do know just enough to avoid that problem which is why i cull my bull calves that weigh over 70 lbs. (culled one, that was 73 lbs bw out of a 1st time heifer, his pedigree was 1/2 show stock and half horn, this gave me a great body but took too much horn off.)
Please provide information showing that taking bulls over 2000 poses problems for other beef breeds? The beef semen company catalogs are full of bulls with mature weights over 2000 lbs. I wouldn't step back from using a bull with that kind of mature weight. In the beef business we're selling pounds of meat, not color, not horn.
as for the one bull that was rented out for 2 months, for one time to a known local breeder, this paid for his hay/minerals for almost 13 months according to our current monthly average (we took the monthly averages for the year of 2004) costs per 1000 animal unit of hard costs.
this same bull was taken in to our local a.i. station and semen tested at about 15 months of age, he was good enough to freeze, we did collect one jump from him, quarentined, then put with our bred females after his quarentine. by this time we had just gotten in our new solid black bull that i wanted to breed with instead)
sold him this may 1st as a breeding bull for a registered longhorn herd just getting started in arizonia after i made sure to question two local vets about the dangers of his "outside job". and made sure that i was not putting their herd at risk by selling him to them... but both vets knew the man and his herd, and knew of no problems with them that could be a safety factor.
the new people are ticked pink with him, love his puppy dog dispostion, and i have tried all that i know to do, to not put their livestock at risk with him.
this is very important to us, because we are a certified t.b. and brucellosis free herd. we simply can not afford to mess with our certification. (i did discuss at some length with the same vet that did our t.b. and brucellosis testing for us, before we ever rented the bull out.)
Thanks for the clarification.
all young bulls that are sold by us are sold with them being taken by myself personally to the a.i. station, and semen checked at approx. 14 months of age. (my senior herd sire was done shortly before he ever left his old home.)
if there is a problem, then that bull is put into a freezer, or banded. he is not sold to the customer.
i had checked one young bull, at 14 months old, before i even had a customer for him. thereby saving myself the potential embarrassment with anybody.
You do know that just because a bull passes a test at 14 months old, that doesn't mean that at 18 months he can pass? A BSE within 30 days of a sale is a generally accepted procedure.
he did not meet the a.i. requirements,, and he went directly to the freezer, and am extra carefull to watch that line, if this happens a second time to that line, that dam is gone herself, to hamburger heaven.
Which AI standards do you strive for?
as for the cow you were talking about in a previous post, about her sometimes thowing spotted calves,, that is easy.
they did not selectively save any of the solid colored heifers from her in your example. it still could take several generations to try to lock in a solid color. they simply did not follow thru into the necessary next steps as presented in your example.
He didn't follow through because he's a commercial cattleman who had the one Longhorn cow because he liked to look at her. They kept every daughter she had and even after two or three generations of using Angus bulls, they'd get a spotted calf and it would bring less money than their solid black calves. IMO, it doesn't matter why it happened; it matters that it cost him money every few years.
this statement leads me to believe, that it is an "accepted norm" to have to pull continental cattle calves. instead of working on a problem with the cattle they already had. they simply turned to a different breed that would give them relief from the "calf pulling" ...for them, a simplier solution.
I'm sure the Continental breeders would disagree with your comment. Some breeds are easier pulls than others, I've been told. My limited experience with them was enough to make me buy Angus bulls. But I think today most Continental breeds have lines of "easy calving bulls". That particular cattleman was wanting to get the horns off his cattle, too, and the Angus bull did that for him.
horn length is the one thing that is measured in this breed, the show stock people are willing to give up a little horn length in order to get the beefy show bodies that win. but, they always working on horn all the time also.
yes, itla is very much working on gathering epd's for the longhorns, but it is a slow process as the old timers don't feel the need for it.. if it ain't broke don't fix it syndrome thingie.
but the newbies to the breed are going for it. and few of these newbies are the 'big boys' with the larger herds, and larger pocketbooks.
So we should expect EPDs on Longhorns soon?
but my personal take on this would be to try to use simple common sense, as long as you do not go to extremes, and keep records of what you are doing, use culling, you can avoid this particular hazard.
So you don't have any reliable information on whether the beef type Longhorns are easier calving than traditional Longhorns? You can use common sense, but you can't dictate what kinds of cattle the bull will be used on. All the research that I've read tells us the more a calf weighs, the more likely there will be calving difficulties. And you say you've got at least one calf that weighed more than you liked.
like i keep saying... beef is not the main focus of my herd but only one of several egg baskets,
and who said i was trying to "breed more meat onto a breed),,, me, myself and i, am trying to breed one whole breed? i dont think so, grins
but i am trying 3-4 animals with the beef style. i have to be able to put something in my own freezer, and deal with extra bull calves that keep popping up. this makes excellent use of dams with fuller maternal bodies.
So what is the "main" focus of your herd? You have bought an almost solid black bull. I believe that was to go with the market trend of beef cattle. It isn't the traditional Longhorn color/marking. You keep referring to a more "beefy" type animal. That would lead most sensible people to think you're trying to breed more "beef" into your herd, not necessarily the breed.
exactly my point... you just said what i apparently didn't get across in my post.
No, in your post you said they were such good terminal cross cattle they almost disappeared. That's very different than the fact that ranchers discovered the smaller percentage of Longhorn blood a cow had, the better her calf would perform.
why is the longhorn propaganda any worse than the angus or anybody else's propaganda?
It's not, but it should be viewed as propaganda. Everyone should read every breed association's information with an eye for facts and references. Some breeds actually provide references for their claims.
ok,, first you get onto me for promoting beefier longhorns, that i am doing a diservice to the longhorn breed by doing so.
I have never said Longhorns don't have a place in the beef business. I have stated that there are people who have developed a niche market for their cattle and are doing well. But, according to posts I've read online, that by trying to turn the Longhorn into a "beef" breed, you will damage it's reputation for easy calving.
now you are saying that my bull is too little to make a difference. you can't have it both ways.
either he is or he isn't too beefy for the longhorn breed...
In my opinion, based on what I've see traditional Longhorn breeders write, he's too big for the Longhorn breed. From my experience in the beef business, he's too small for serious commercial use. Therein lies the dilemma of the Longhorn breeder.
i had mentioned that i was treating my business as a business, so you hit me with "because they love the animals.",,
now, if i had said i was a hobby breeder, then you would have hit me with the fact that i cannot be taken seriously because i'm not treating this as a business.
no matter which i said, business or hobby, you would have countered with the opposite tact. a no win situation for me either way.
No, I mentioned that "they love the animals" because they aren't in it for the money. That doesn't reflect on you at all. Most of the cattlemen in my county probably haven't actually made money over the last 15 years, but they love the lifestyle. Hopefully, with the cattle prices today, they are actually making money. I'd guess that the majority posting on this board don't make a living from their cattle. I don't.
now... do you understand why longhorn colors are so unpreditable and much more challenging than what you would be dealing with in your commercial breeds?
I'm sorry. Did I give you the impression that I cared why Longhorn colors were unpredictable? It's irrelevant to me. The bottom line is that buyers at the sale barns will discount spotted calves as Longhorns, whether they are or not.
that must mean i have only one real longhorn in my herd. seeing as how i bought a 6 month old heifer in '03 from the WR herd to use for blending.
she has just given me a solid colored dun heifer that will be perfect to breed back to my senior solid black bull. the dun heifer's dam is light red/yellow? with a little white, and lightly brindle.
.....this must mean that her heifer is only a half-real longhorn then, and the next generation down will be a quarter-real longhorn...
sorry,
in that particular paragragh you were actually being nice. so please take those two sentences above as silliness, and not in seriousness.
OK
and by talking about this in an open forum, just maybe, i can get someone else, to think out of the box......
Question: how many sides to a box do you see?
trick question you ask??
my answer: i see four sides, plus an inside, an outside, a topside, a bottomside, , my side, your side, wrong side, right side, leftside, upside down, rightside up, a kitty corner side, a catty corner side, a round 2 it side..... etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum
respectfully,
magpie
Ah, the box again. Since I like to know where I am before I change direction, I need more information. What kind of box? If it's a plain old square cardboard box, is the lid open or closed? If closed, I see four sides and a top since it's setting on the bottom. Is it a small box I can hold in my hand? Then I see four sides, a top and a bottom. Is it a huge box setting on the warehouse floor, then I only see one side...at a time. Using your imagination is a wonderful thing, but in the beef business, we're still selling the most quality meat for the most we can get for it. Imagining that your 700+ lb yearling bull (if that's a correct figure) will sire calves that will grow well enough to be profitable in the commercial cattle busines is only that: imagination.