New Longhorn calf

[preston39]

magpie,

Nice longhorn bull. How old is he? Looking at his horns and structure I would think he is younger.

 

[WORANCH]

this is a bull we are using to add beef to our longhorns, we have 8 spring calves on the ground by him and even tho they are only 42 - 55 lbs at birth, they are growing like weeds. and not only i can see, but others have commented on the fact that his calves are thicker than my other longhorn calves. he is out of a top longhorn sire for the longhorn world

and was quote: "OVERWHELMER - is sired by Cowcatcher, out of the famous Doherty 698. Some feel Overwhelmer, a many times World's Champion Sire & World's champion Get of Sire himself, is the superior sire in the history of the breed. He sires size demanded by the commercial and show industry, and he sires horn demanded by those paying the big prices. He combines both opposite segments of the industry in one bull and also consistently sires dark red and spotted animals." unquote

we have the only KNOWN solid black son of overwhelmer, we are getting solid colored babies out of solid colored mamas, and fancy colored babies out of mamas that have a lot of white, one solor color baby out of a mama that is approx. 60% white. and a brown calf with a black nose out of him and a solid black mama longhorn, this calf will turn black when she sheds out of her baby coat.

yes, even when you mate two solids together, or two fancy colors together you dont know what you get... sometimes that calf doesnt look like either parent in coloring.... that is a longhorn.

but surely... having less stress on the first time commerical mama and a live baby on the ground that you can get 300 to 400 dollars at the sale barn at weaning time must be better than.... pulling calves, losing a calf, and/or losing a mama? some monies is better than no monies??? a live mama and calf is better than a dead mama and calf??

as a registered longhorn breeder my personal goal is to give the local people around me "another option" to their calving problems. and am working having beefier longhorn bull calves that our local commercial guys can use on their 1st time mamas and not get hit quite so hard when they sell their crossbred calves at weaning time.

"with the correct longhorn bull"you can put a calf on the ground and as long as the color doesnt give you away, nobody can tell by looking at them that they are half longhorn.

we have a brangus herd nearby that bought one of our young bulls to "lean" out their stock.

we have a beefmaster herd that was so tired of pulling calves, (25+) and lost a $1500.00 1st time mama, that he bought a young bull from us. (he told me the value of his cow that he had lost, i didnt pull that figure out of thin air) and the peace of mind that he has by using a longhorn in a terminal cross is worth loosing some monies at the sale barn.

and the beefmaster's brother rented a bull of ours for his angus herd.

now, this fall, i will go back to these people and ask them how they did selling these longhorn crosses out of "our" longhorns. because i did NOT let them have bulls that were "roper" stock.

the roper style stock got banded and either put in the freezer or sold as weanlings to the sale barn. we are not in the "roper" market, and wont let a bull off of our place for commercial breeding unless he has enough beef himself to do a good job as a commercial breeder.

we have 3 mamas that give us beefy style babies, because the mamas have show stock pedigrees behind them.

it takes careful selection on my part to find these animals, i have spent many hours researching the different lines of longhorns to find what best fits my needs, then i match the mating to the animal and what i think will best work for what that animal is capable of.

this is no different than what you commercial guys do with your epd's. we just have an additional color factor to deal with besides culling for conformation, milking ablility, weaning weights, yearling weights, dispostion, etc.

the two main reasons in my research that the longhorns almost died out was:

1. for the 1800's tallow (fat) was needed for those times, --that is something that the longhorn carries around it's internal organs, not the same as the commercial beef. that is why the commerical breeds were developed, to get that "tallow" content that was needed for those times.

2. the longhorns are "highly efficient as a terminal cross", they were used so extensively back in the early days for this, that soon you had to hunt hard to even find full bloods back then.


these facts are not highly known to people that have not taken the trouble to research the longhorns history.

yes, without "careful selection" it is easy to miss the advantages that the longhorn can offer.

there are longhorn breeders scattered throughout the country that feel as we do, and will treat the longhorn as a beef animal. but the true beauty of the breed is it versatility in all the things it can do, besides just being a pasture ornament.

sorry for being long, but you can get beef with your longhorns, you just have to hunt harder to find the animal that will do it for you. but it is possible.

at least with my longhorn freezer beef i am not paying the butcher to cut off unnessary fat because it is already naturally lean with less cholesterol than chicken.

magpie



[/img]

I shouldn't respond to this ,but I think your abvertiseing your cattle so I'm going to . First I don't want 42-55 lb calves . thats to small . Second I want to get more than 300 - 400 for a calf from a heifer that I have held for 2 years , I like this 600 - 700 bucks we 're getting now .
I use Beefmaster and Angus bulls on heifers and I have not pulled a calf in several years ( for size) . I like calves to be 65-75 pounds. 900-1100 lb heifers can calve unassisted.
When a longhorn breeder dehornes his cattle then I might think he is realy trying to raise beef not horns..

whats bad is they don't even make the best roping stock anymore...

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

To "Woranch" (and others):

The Longhorn bull, "Jet Black Phantom" was 7 years old March 21, 2005.

While his calves to date for us have been small at birth, they have been gaining fast. Phantom's weight on a certified scale this spring was 1780 lbs.

No, we're not "advertising" per se by posting his picture or talking about our program. Others do this too with their cattle photos, information.

Admittedly, there are other breeds out there that produce low birthweight calves, unassisted. Longhorns do not have the exclusive claim to that trait.

We've had a 100% live, healthy, unassisted calf from all of our bulls, including 1st calf heifers. The bulls we have sold to commercial breeders have had the same success.

We select our "bottom end" yearling bull of the proper weight each year for our freezer. Get $700 to $800 worth of meat for our own needs.

Since we're not into creating roping stock, I have no accurate information on the use of Longhorns for ropers. However, I believe that the Coriente or Coriente/Longhorn cross are the primary ropers

Finally, I don't think that the post by "Magpie" was meant to imply that sale barn commercial calves only sold for $300 to 400 since we all know differently--probably an unclear comment??.

 

[WORANCH]

but surely... having less stress on the first time commerical mama and a live baby on the ground that you can get 300 to 400 dollars at the sale barn at weaning time must be better than.... pulling calves, losing a calf, and/or losing a mama? some monies is better than no monies??? a live mama and calf is better than a dead mama and calf??

Seems she was implying that Longhorn calves would bring 300-400 at weaning . Thats about right ..

We select our "bottom end" yearling bull of the proper weight each year for our freezer. Get $700 to $800 worth of meat for our own needs.

I think alot of people do this not just Longhorn breeders

 

[magpie]

you are correct, i was unclear about who i was talking about when i was mentioning the 300 - 400 sale barn calves.

i'll try to be briefer this time. grins this i why i rarely post, i get too wordy. :roll:



""get 300 to 400 dollars at the sale barn at weaning time must be better than.... pulling...""


**a good longhorn cross calf would bring more than this... i was using my own straight longhorn stock as an example because that is what i have....**

i personally took 3 of our bottom end calves; 2 steers, and a heifer, who didn't make my program for several reasons.

these at weaning age, being longhorns and too light to fit "my" needs went for the 300.00 - 400.00 range.

and if they are too light for my needs, they certainly dont fit anybody else's beef needs either : which is why they were my culls. and everybody knows that most culls are normally taken to the sale barn if they are not put into a freezer instead.

these were staight longhorns, people could see that they were not the "stocky beef type" and i got paid for my low end culls at weaning time, ($300-400) i made sure that the bulls were steered.

and somebody else got a good deal for the little heifer, she was part of my "black" program, but did not meet my minimum needs for weight gain for her age. so, hard as it was for me to let go of a 3rd generation "solid black" longhorn heifer, i had to keep to my goals and cull her. (91 cents a pound on her.)


now, we do have 2 cows that have put a 71 lb and a 73 lb straight longhorn calves on the ground, those mama's are part of my beef style program.
but most of our calves are the normal 50 lb to 60 lb range.

just for an example:

right now i have 1 bull and 1 steer that are only 2 weeks apart in ages. different bloodlines totally. (steer is already sold as a pasture ornament and pasture buddy for a dexter bull of the same age. they are due to go to the other owner's new place as soon as fencing is put into place.)

the steer is about 300 lbs lighter and 8 inches shorter than my "best beef style bull calf". that is why he is a steer. and i will use his mama to produce "pretty" babies to sell to someone who wants a pretty pasture ornament.

in fact, this mama of this steer, had a "pretty, fancy colored heifer" this time around, and that we have sold this heifer before the heifer is two months of age. this fancy heifer is bringing us $1,500.00 (deposit now, and full monies at weaning time this fall).

so this heifer helps to make up for her half brother's shortcomings, and i have income from two totally different markets: the sale barn and the registered longhorn market.

---------------


all i am trying to point out is, that you have to use the right animal for the right job. dont go to a sale barn for a cheap longhorn cull and expect him to give you a decent break on your crossbred calves. select the right animal that will fill your needs best. culls can not do that.

this is true no matter what the hide color or the breed of animal is.

i have tried very hard to take to heart what you "commercial guys already know and have proven". ... to use your knowledge and apply it to my own situation.

and i did find another breed that is worse than the longhorn for gainibility.


and just for grins, this pic is of the little heifer, half sister to last year's steer that i was talking about. the one that helps make up for her half brother's shortcomings

well, i was a little bit briefer... :roll:

magpie

 

[Ryan]

Here's a heifer, 'bout a month old.
What do you think?

 

[magpie]

nice baby, good full hip, looks like she would mature into a nice maternal type cow. grins can breed for a plain colored calf from her, or a fancy colored baby too. the best of both worlds

magpie

 

[Frankie]

this is a bull we are using to add beef to our longhorns, we have 8 spring calves on the ground by him and even tho they are only 42 - 55 lbs at birth, they are growing like weeds. and not only i can see, but others have commented on the fact that his calves are thicker than my other longhorn calves. he is out of a top longhorn sire for the longhorn world

"like weeds" doesn't tell us much. Do you take 205 day weights? How do they compare with beef breeds, as opposed to your "other longhorn calves"? How do you evaluate a "top longhorn sire for the longhorn world"? Do you use horn length, color or average daily gain, lbs of beef produced?

and was quote: "OVERWHELMER - is sired by Cowcatcher, out of the famous Doherty 698. Some feel Overwhelmer, a many times World's Champion Sire & World's champion Get of Sire himself, is the superior sire in the history of the breed. He sires size demanded by the commercial and show industry, and he sires horn demanded by those paying the big prices. He combines both opposite segments of the industry in one bull and also consistently sires dark red and spotted animals." Unquote

"Some feel…." How do others in the longhorn industry feel?

we have the only KNOWN solid black son of overwhelmer, we are getting solid colored babies out of solid colored mamas, and fancy colored babies out of mamas that have a lot of white, one solor color baby out of a mama that is approx. 60% white. and a brown calf with a black nose out of him and a solid black mama longhorn, this calf will turn black when she sheds out of her baby coat.

Wouldn't it have been easier to start with black cattle like Angus or solid colored cattle like Limousin than to try to breed the spots off longhorns? Easier and cheaper to start with beef cattle than to now try to breed more meat onto a breed that doesn't traditionally have it?

yes, even when you mate two solids together, or two fancy colors together you dont know what you get... sometimes that calf doesnt look like either parent in coloring.... that is a longhorn.

Yes, I have a friend who has been using Angus bulls on several generations of daughters of one spotted longhorn cow and he still occasionally gets spotted calves. And he sells them separate from his solid black calves because buyers will discount the entire group because of one longhorn "looking" calf.

but surely... having less stress on the first time commerical mama and a live baby on the ground that you can get 300 to 400 dollars at the sale barn at weaning time must be better than.... pulling calves, losing a calf, and/or losing a mama? some monies is better than no monies??? a live mama and calf is better than a dead mama and calf?? [/quote[

When we first got into the cattle business, there were several people using Longhorn bulls on their first calf heifers in my area. I don't know of anyone using them today. Most people I know are using low birthweight EPD Angus bulls. Most breeds today have calving ease bulls that will produce a calf worth more than $3-400 at the sale barn at weaning out of a first calf heifer..

as a registered longhorn breeder my personal goal is to give the local people around me "another option" to their calving problems. and am working having beefier longhorn bull calves that our local commercial guys can use on their 1st time mamas and not get hit quite so hard when they sell their crossbred calves at weaning time.

I'm sorry, but if your local people are selling spotted longhorn calves at weaning, they're getting hit at the sale barn because of the longhorn influence. You may be raising "beefer" type longhorns, but the buyers don't care how much more "beefy" they are. They're still longhorns. You might search for the thread on this board from the Pinzgauer breeder who was unhappy that his cattle were being docked as longhorns because of their spots.

"with the correct longhorn bull"you can put a calf on the ground and as long as the color doesnt give you away, nobody can tell by looking at them that they are half longhorn.

"if the color doesn't give you away…" But, as you say, you never know what you'll get when you breed to a longhorn.

we have a brangus herd nearby that bought one of our young bulls to "lean" out their stock.

Does "lean" mean backfat? I can't imagine they had too much marbling….

we have a beefmaster herd that was so tired of pulling calves, (25+) and lost a $1500.00 1st time mama, that he bought a young bull from us. (he told me the value of his cow that he had lost, i didnt pull that figure out of thin air) and the peace of mind that he has by using a longhorn in a terminal cross is worth loosing some monies at the sale barn.

Cows probably have more to do with calving difficulty than the bull, plus management up to calving is important. But everyone has to make their own decisions and if this guy is willing to sell his calves for less than his neighbors, that's his choice. We've sold several Angus bulls over the last few years to older ranchers who got into Continental cattle when their children started showing them. But the kids are grown and gone now and they aren't able to handle the calf pulling by themselves, so they've turned to Angus. Most of them raised Angus influenced cattle before the kids started showing anyway. With today's prices, even those people using longhorn genetics should be able to make some money on their calves. Everything is relative.

and the beefmaster's brother rented a bull of ours for his angus herd.

I've often wondered how renting out a bull worked. What will you do with that bull when you get him back?

now, this fall, i will go back to these people and ask them how they did selling these longhorn crosses out of "our" longhorns. because i did NOT let them have bulls that were "roper" stock.

By all means, post their responses here. I'd be interested to hear the details of what their calves brought as compared to traditional beef calves.

the roper style stock got banded and either put in the freezer or sold as weanlings to the sale barn. we are not in the "roper" market, and wont let a bull off of our place for commercial breeding unless he has enough beef himself to do a good job as a commercial breeder.

we have 3 mamas that give us beefy style babies, because the mamas have show stock pedigrees behind them.

Do "show stock pedigrees" include horn length? Does anyone measure weights, carcass weight, quality, yield grade?

it takes careful selection on my part to find these animals, i have spent many hours researching the different lines of longhorns to find what best fits my needs, then i match the mating to the animal and what i think will best work for what that animal is capable of.

But you are not able to carefully match the bulls to the individual cow herds of your commercial customers? There have been longhorn breeders on various discussion boards that claim the "beefier" type longhorns don't have the same calving ease as traditional longhorns. Do you have any information in that area?

this is no different than what you commercial guys do with your epd's. we just have an additional color factor to deal with besides culling for conformation, milking ablility, weaning weights, yearling weights, dispostion, etc.

Of course it's different than EPDs. EPDs are based on performance of multiple generations of cattle. That performance is reported to the breed association who compiles it and produces EPDs. Is there a particular longhorn association where you report WW, YW, etc? Apparently you just don't deal with the color factor if you don't know what color or variety of colors a breeding will give you.

the two main reasons in my research that the longhorns almost died out was:

1. for the 1800's tallow (fat) was needed for those times, --that is something that the longhorn carries around it's internal organs, not the same as the commercial beef. that is why the commerical breeds were developed, to get that "tallow" content that was needed for those times.

I'd like to see your reference for this reason. "Commercial" breeds (I assume you mean beef breeds) were imported into the US to improve the amount and quality of beef produced. There aren't many "commercial breeds" developed in the US. Herefords, Angus, Shorthorns, Limousin, Simmentals, Salers, Brahman, were all imported from other countries, not "developed." Yes, there are some breeds "developed" here, Brangus, Gerts, but I don't know of any that used Longhorns in the mix.

2. the longhorns are "highly efficient as a terminal cross", they were used so extensively back in the early days for this, that soon you had to hunt hard to even find full bloods back then.

Again, do you have a reference here? From what I've read the imported cattle produced more beef than straight Longhorns. But since there were so many Longhorns (and they were much cheaper than importing more cattle) they crossed Longhorns with the English breeds to improve beef production out of Longhorn cows.

these facts are not highly known to people that have not taken the trouble to research the longhorns history.

I'll with hold judgment here until you provide some references to your claims 1 & 2 above. But I really think you're quoting Longhorn propaganda.

yes, without "careful selection" it is easy to miss the advantages that the longhorn can offer.

I'm still not clear what advantage the longhorn can offer.

there are longhorn breeders scattered throughout the country that feel as we do, and will treat the longhorn as a beef animal. but the true beauty of the breed is it versatility in all the things it can do, besides just being a pasture ornament.

I wish you all the luck in the world.

sorry for being long, but you can get beef with your longhorns, you just have to hunt harder to find the animal that will do it for you. but it is possible.

I'm sorry, but when you post a picture of a seven year old bull that only weighs 1780 lbs, I have to question how much beef you'll get with even these "beefier" type animals. My Angus bulls weigh 12-1400 lbs as yearlings. We sold a five year old Longhorn bull that had been used as a "gomer" bull and he weighed less than 1200 lbs! Believe me, he had been eating well his entire life! The younger cattle can be finished and on someone's plate the better for producers, feeders and packers. I'd really like to see some information on 205-day and yearling weights of longhorn cattle.

at least with my longhorn freezer beef i am not paying the butcher to cut off unnessary fat because it is already naturally lean with less cholesterol than chicken.
magpie

Since "naturally lean" beef usually means no marbling, your cattle will likely grade Select at the packing facility and take a discount to Choice cattle. There are several cuts of beef that have less cholesterol than chicken, no matter what the breed. And we know one out of four Select steaks will be tough; that's not a good thing for the consumer.

 

[magpie]

hi frankie,

glad to meet you. you have a passion for your angus that truly shows thru, and i admire you for that. great passion is a driving force that can make very usefull changes to many different things.



to very badly misquote robert frost:

The road less traveled
I shall be telling this with a sigh Somewhere ages and ages hence; Two roads diverged in a wood, and I, I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference. -Robert Frost (1916)


you have taken a very well traveled road with your angus, and as a breed the angus people have it very together about how they go about collecting information and improving their breed.

this is a main concept that i am borrowing for my less traveled path that i have choosen to take with my longhorns.

longhorn people are notorious for not taking epd's, or measuring anything but the tip to tip or the total horn that they can produce out of this breed. i am trying to be an atypical longhorn breeder...

i am trying to point out, is that with proper selection in my own herd, that i can in my own small way, make a small difference for the breeders in my own local area.

i did not seek out those three particular people to come over to my place and buy my young longhorn bulls. they came to me. and i as a newcomer to my area dont know the people around here.

the beefmaster guy could have gone to his own brother and gotten a low epd angus bull. but he chose to come here and get a longhorn instead.

both the beefmaster and the angus guy here, are commerical cattlemen and have decent sized herds for this area.. the bragus guy could have gone to a different breed also. but chose not to.

i.e. if i wasn't sitting here with my useless longhorn cattle, they wouldn't have had the additional option of a longhorn bull for crossbreeding purposes to start with..

---------------

my small herd is a "seed stock" herd. i am not in the market to sell beef animals, i am in the market to raise "quality registered texas longhorns" and as such it is my aim to raise as many heifers as i can, to sell to other longhorn breeders for their herds.

as a natural process of having calves i will always have bull calves to deal with. i could take the easy road, band 100% of my males, and take them to the sale barn at weaning time, and not bother fooling with the darn things.

but instead, i recognize a need for a beefy style longhorn bull, alibet that that need is very, very small. i also recognize that i would like to put a longhorn in the freezer without having to grow that longhorn for 2 years to do it. thus i am filling both a need for myself and for others too.

i am not in the market to out do the commercial breeders, or to even try to compete against them,, because it would take more than my lifetime to do this. and there are already people in the longhorn business that have devoted their life to that.

i recognize that the longhorn is a breed that has come a long way since 1930, and still has a long way to go to improve. as a breed there were nothing left but a small pitiful base to build on.

angus people did not start with basically leftovers to build their breed up. they have been in business as a beef breed for a very long time and excel at this. as do several other beef breeds.

but i see that it is possible to change and to improve on my longhorns as little or as much as i want to. mankind tinkering with mother nature syndrome..

i do weigh my calves at birth, weaning, and one year weights. as a small producer i have the luxury of matching my matings for my cattle. without those measurements how would i know where i need to improve?

i am not trying to produce cookie cutter calves, for that i would need a different breed. i take what i do have and figure out the best way to utilize that animal.

why longhorns? why not ? i ask.....

ok, ok, i got into longhorns purely by accident,, see, my future husband had gotten these two preggie mama cows with 2 calves. he did this barely 3 or 4 months before i started dating him. and since then, i married him and basically took over his longhorns... lol cause he didnt know much about what he was doing at the time.

you get your fur up about longhorns....

i get my fur up about people that say... longhorns are totally useless to the beef market....


i fully agree that we disagree



i will get you some links to some web sites that i know of, that have the type of info that you are looking for. just not in this post. because this one is already long.



what i am trying to do is to get some information out there:

is that all longhorns are not all bad and can be usefull for many different reasons.

again, i admire your passion for your angus breed, you have worked hard to get where you are today and to gain the knowledge that you have.

and i presume, you are a commerical cattle person, you have already forgotten more about cattle than i will ever know. ( i am just now into my 4th year of raising cattle.) there is much that i can learn from you, all i have to do is to apply some of that knowlege to what i am doing..

because i turn 50 in two days, and have only just now gotten into cattle this last four years, i will never have the knowledge that you have accumulated in your years of hard work,,

to me.... i will never catch up with you or any other longtime breeders, i will not live long enough to do that.

my herd will not grow beyond having about 15 calves a year. but i can do the best that i can with what i have... because this is my path that i have chosen.

this is my challenge for me, and longhorns meet the challenge very well for me. as i can have various styles of longhorns in my herd and have fun with it, and still benefit myself and others while i am doing it..

by having different styles of longhorns in my herd, i have more than one egg basket to sell from... i can not be all things to all people, and neither can my herd.

yes, we do have a "business plan" set up, hubby keeps detailed records on expenses right down to the amount we are spending per 1000 lb animal unit. as our bookkeeping has to satisfy the irs as a business. we treat and run this as a business not a hobby.

(but i really enjoy the hell out of what i am doing! lol )

and by talking about this in an open forum, just maybe, i can get someone else to think out of the box......

Question: how many sides to a box do you see?

trick question you ask??
:shock:





my answer: i see four sides, plus an inside, an outside, a topside, a bottomside, , my side, your side, wrong side, right side, leftside, upside down, rightside up, a kitty corner side, a catty corner side, a round 2 it side..... etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum



respectfully,

magpie

 

[Frankie]

Everyone to his own opinion, but IMO, you're not doing the Longhorn breed any favors by promoting a "beefy" type. As I said, I've seen Longhorn breeders online complaining that type of Longhorns was hurting the calving ease reputation of Longhorns in general.

We get over to the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge Longhorn Sale every few years to see real Longhorns. You do know that they have possibly the purest Longhorn herd in the US? Some years we've seen a skull sell for more than a cow-calf pair! No one gets in the pens with these animals; they're likely to hurt you. Most years the crowd is as interesting as the cattle, some very "unusual" people there.

My reasons in responding to your post were (1) to question your claims about why other breeds were "developed" and why purebred Longhorns almost disappeared. You haven't provided any references for those claims, so I guess you don't have any? IMO, they almost disappeared because cattlemen found out half blood daughters of Longhorn cows produced more beef, more efficiently than their mothers, and the quarter blood daughters of those cows were even better, and so on until the breed was in danger of disappearing.
And (2) it ruffles my feathers to see someone proudly claiming their cattle have less cholesterol than cattle in general. In most instances it means the cattle don't marble and since the USDA grading standards are built on intramuscular fat (IMF), leaner beef is usually discounted to Choice beef. Many people don't understand that and I like to bring it to their attention.

I am especially sorry you didn't answer the question about what you will do with the bull that you're leasing to someone else when he comes home. I've never really understood how someone can make money leasing out their bulls. Since you have a business plan, surely you have that worked out? Did you guarantee the bulls you sold as breeders, provide a BSE to the buyer?

As I said, I wish you the best with your program. There are Longhorn breeders that have recognized their cattle's unique niche in the industry and are doing well by filling that niche. There are several Longhorn breeders in my area. They don't do it for the money, they do it because they love the animals.

But I don't think there's much you can learn from me. You already seem to know everything you think you need to know. Good luck…

 

[magpie]

http://itla.com/ScientificStudy.htm



ITLA Texas Longhorn Scientific Studies




The Texas Longhorn's lack of fat, once a cause of near-extinction, is now recognized as one of the breed's strong qualities. Health conscious modern nutritionists consistently condemn the heavy fat content of some beef and whole-heartedly support the use of less fat, lower cholesterol meats like the Texas Longhorn.

Research at Oregon State University found that Texas Longhorns were highly immune to the deadly tansy ragwort plant which plagues the northwestern cattle industry. Iowa State University found Texas Longhorns to be highly resistant to virtual immunity to pinkeye, another expensive malady, is also well documented.

In a test of 11 breeds conducted by the U.S. Meat Animal Research Center, Texas Longhorn-sired calves graded USDA Choice 62%, a ratio of 104.2% compared to the all-breed test average. Longhorn-sired steers in this test had a 61.7% dressing percentage with an 81.8% ratio in fat thickness comparison. The Texas Longhorn-sired steers had an average fat thickness of 0.36" as compared with an average of 0.44" for the other 10 breed groups.

In scientific carcass evaluations, which will determine the future direction of the red meat industry, the Texas Longhorn's competitive strength over all other breeds is unique, due to their nature-produced anatomy and physiology. The National Western Stock show, in Denver, established the first and largest carcass evaluation in the world. A pen of five ¾-blood Texas Longhorn steers won Reserve Champion against all breeds with backfat ranging from 0.15" to 0.30". Yield grade ranged from 1.75 to 2.42 with rib-eye measurements over 13 sq. in.

In 1987, a Texas Longhorn-cross six-steer entry placed 2nd in the heavyweight steer division. These steers averaged 0.41" back fat, after 105 days on feed. The steers weighed in at 1,197 lbs. and had an average of 14 sq. inches of rib-eye, a cutability of 51.4% and Yield Grade 2. A prime grade steer from this group was the highest indexing prime grade animal for two years in a row. The following year Texas Longhorn crosses placed one 1st, two 2nd's, and a 3rd against world class competition.

On the West Coast, 1st place in the Group Carcass category of the 3rd Annual California Street Futurity, California Polytechnic Institute, was won by Texas Longhorn crosses. Of a total of 240 steers, entered by 23 ranches, the Longhorn cross's 108.8 index was the best recorded. The winning steers started on feed at an average weight of 678 lbs. and after 110 days they finished at 1,052 lbs. with a 3.40 lb. average daily gain. The average carcass weighed 639.6 lbs. with a 62% dress on a quality grade average of Choice-minus, Yield Grade 2. The back fat averaged 0.33" and the rib-eye area average was 11.50 sq. inches. The Texas Longhorn group also led the conversion rate with less feed required per pound of gain.

-------------------------------------

frankie--- the bold face portions are what i did, those were not bold faced on the original site.

------------

what i am saying is that longhorns and longhorn crosses are not completely useless to the beef world, they do have a contribution to make.



magpie

 

[magpie]

http://itla.com/SyntheticBreeds.htm


Texas Longhorn Synthetic Breeds



Modern high tech cattle production methods may have deviated too much from the proven economic traits of the Texas Longhorn. Some animal scientists and cattlemen feel that most "modern cattle" are too big, too fat, and shaped wrong for easy birthing and lack disease resistance and longevity. To correct these trends, several exciting new synthetic breeds using Texas Longhorn blood have been developed. The "El Monterey," "Salorn" and "Geltex" are established, and others are in various stages of development.

These synthetic breeds are testing, scientifically, various breeding percentages of Texas Longhorn blood to develop an optimum range animal to meet the changing demands of today's consumer. These new Texas Longhorn synthetic breeds are excelling in producing Choice carcasses with a very high percentage of Yield Grades 1 and 2

--------------------


frankie: these three synthetic breeds all use "some longhorns" for their blend.

so you see, there really are "breeds" out there that have a use for longhorns, because you have to start somewhere in that pedigree with a "longhorn".

also, the bold face is my imput, not on the original site, i wanted to be sure those breed names were not missed.

magpie

 

[magpie]

http://www.luckysnlranch.com/articles/26.html

Reference Library


Who says Texas Longhorn cattle won't feed out?
Just ask Dick Robbins, Anchor D Ranch, Belvidere, KS.

For the past five years, Robbins has participated in the Pratt Area Extension Futurity at Pratt Feeders, Inc., Pratt. KS. According to Paul Hartman, County Extension Agent, the purpose of the futurity is to provide area cattle producers with data concerning live animal performance and carcass traits of steers produced from their herds. It helps the producer evaluate the kind of cattle he wants to fit into his livestock program and provides another marketing alternative by retaining ownership of steers. The unique thing about the futurity is that carcass traits are compiled and evaluated on each individual animal so that producers bring steers by different breeds, sires, and dams, and will let him genetically evaluate the best producing animal within his herd.

This year Robbins placed three groups of Texas Longhorn cross steers on test. The first group (Simmental bulls on Texas Longhorn cross cows) had an average daily gain (ADO) of 3.39 with a hot carcass weight of 740 lbs., dressing Out at 64.13%. All quality graded choice or select. Most of the steers yield graded 1 or 2. Cost/cwt gain was $45.71.

The other two groups were fullblood Texas Longhorn X fullblood Simmental. Together they had a final ADG of 2.72, dressing at 62.49. All 23 quality graded choice or select, again with yield grades of 1 or 2.

It was also noted that the Texas Longhorn cross steers had the lowest hospital bill of any animals entered.

Robbins uses the data collected from the futurity as a marketing tool. "More folks should take advantage of tests like this," says Robbins. It gives you an idea how your breeding program is doing and gives other folks concrete evidence of what Texas Longhorns can do in their herd."

Texas Longhorn Trails February 1992
--------------

now frankie.... you will kindly notice that the word select is applied to a beef carcass that has longhorn in it.

-------

it must also be duly noted that i have cut and pasted this without the web site's owner's knowledge or permission. so don't blame him because i drug his good name out into a very public eye.

--------
http://www.luckysnlranch.com/longhorn3.html

the above is a link to 40 different articles, dealing with longhorn and longhorn crosses, i dare not cut and paste more without permission.


this web site is full of very valuable information that is backed up with years of hard work and scientific studies.. i have the most utmost respect for this person and their operation.. no harm is meant to him. i just needed his valuable info for my own purposes.

this web site does have a disclaimer about the articles on it. so be sure to read it also.

----------------

again, frankie,, all bold text is my doing, for emphasis only.


magpie

 

[magpie]

this is two different styles of longhorn youngstock. the black one is a steer, the red and white is still a bull that i would consider to be able to put "better" crossbred calves on the ground than the black steer had he been left a bull.

----------------

these are the two animals that i was speaking about in a earlier post in this thread. the ones that i said were 300 pounds and 8 inches in hip height difference. black steer born 30 days after the r/w bull.

black steer - platform scale weight on 5-20-05 395 lbs, hip height 43", born June 10, 2004, bw: 55 lbs, 29" hip height. WDA as of that day being 1.15 according to cattlemax

r/w bull - platform scale weight on 5-14-05 717 lbs, hip height 50", born May 10, 2004, bw: 65 lbs, hip height 26". WDA as of that day, 1.95 according to cattlemax

the red and white bull is the current top of my own little beef program, how on earth can his type be a threat to crossbreeding?????

the two particular animals represent the two extremes of my '04 bull calf crop.

yes, other people before me have much better weights, but then they have spent many many years more at this, than i.

the black steer i got when i purchased his then, preggie dam. and the red/white young bull is my own mating.

-----------------
why in on earth would i, or for that matter anyone choose the black steer type to use in any breeding program, let alone a crossbreeding one?

-----------------

the red and white young bull is what is my mental picture, of what i would consider a beefy style young longhorn bull suitable for crossbreeding purposes. i am working on changing the color pattern. his pedigree is full of showstock both top and bottom.

and why would you think that my red/white young bull would hurt the epd's of putting low birthweight calves on the ground for crossbreeding, because he, and my black senior herd sire, is what i am talking about when i talk about a beefy style longhorn bull for crossbreeding?

-------------

i do agree that taking extremes in anything is not good. that is why i am comfortable with my 1780 lb black bull with a hip height of 58" that you have already seen pics of.

there are more than just several of the 1 ton registered longhorn bulls in the longhorn industry. these represent the extreme of what can and could be done.

but, taking bulls consistantly well past the one ton mark, poses problems that other beef breeds have already found. i do know just enough to avoid that problem which is why i cull my bull calves that weigh over 70 lbs. (culled one, that was 73 lbs bw out of a 1st time heifer, his pedigree was 1/2 show stock and half horn, this gave me a great body but took too much horn off.)

our own herd is a mix of different body, color, and horn styles. all being registered texas longhorns. my different egg baskets so to speak.

----------------------------

as for the one bull that was rented out for 2 months, for one time to a known local breeder, this paid for his hay/minerals for almost 13 months according to our current monthly average (we took the monthly averages for the year of 2004) costs per 1000 animal unit of hard costs.

this same bull was taken in to our local a.i. station and semen tested at about 15 months of age, he was good enough to freeze, we did collect one jump from him, quarentined, then put with our bred females after his quarentine. by this time we had just gotten in our new solid black bull that i wanted to breed with instead)

sold him this may 1st as a breeding bull for a registered longhorn herd just getting started in arizonia after i made sure to question two local vets about the dangers of his "outside job". and made sure that i was not putting their herd at risk by selling him to them... but both vets knew the man and his herd, and knew of no problems with them that could be a safety factor.

the new people are ticked pink with him, love his puppy dog dispostion, and i have tried all that i know to do, to not put their livestock at risk with him.

this is very important to us, because we are a certified t.b. and brucellosis free herd. we simply can not afford to mess with our certification. (i did discuss at some length with the same vet that did our t.b. and brucellosis testing for us, before we ever rented the bull out.)

Did you guarantee the bulls you sold as breeders,

all young bulls that are sold by us are sold with them being taken by myself personally to the a.i. station, and semen checked at approx. 14 months of age. (my senior herd sire was done shortly before he ever left his old home.)

if there is a problem, then that bull is put into a freezer, or banded. he is not sold to the customer.

i had checked one young bull, at 14 months old, before i even had a customer for him. thereby saving myself the potential embarrassment with anybody.

he did not meet the a.i. requirements,, and he went directly to the freezer, and am extra carefull to watch that line, if this happens a second time to that line, that dam is gone herself, to hamburger heaven.
----------------

as for the cow you were talking about in a previous post, about her sometimes thowing spotted calves,, that is easy.

they did not selectively save any of the solid colored heifers from her in your example. it still could take several generations to try to lock in a solid color. they simply did not follow thru into the necessary next steps as presented in your example.

-------

as for your example of continental cattle,

"they aren't able to handle the calf pulling by themselves, so they have turned to angus."

this statement leads me to believe, that it is an "accepted norm" to have to pull continental cattle calves. instead of working on a problem with the cattle they already had. they simply turned to a different breed that would give them relief from the "calf pulling" ...for them, a simplier solution.

---------------

Do "show stock pedigrees" include horn length? Does anyone measure weights, carcass weight, quality, yield grade?

horn length is the one thing that is measured in this breed, the show stock people are willing to give up a little horn length in order to get the beefy show bodies that win. but, they always working on horn all the time also.

yes, itla is very much working on gathering epd's for the longhorns, but it is a slow process as the old timers don't feel the need for it.. if it ain't broke don't fix it syndrome thingie.

but the newbies to the breed are going for it. and few of these newbies are the 'big boys' with the larger herds, and larger pocketbooks.

----------------

But you are not able to carefully match the bulls to the individual cow herds of your commercial customers? There have been longhorn breeders on various discussion boards that claim the "beefier" type longhorns don't have the same calving ease as traditional longhorns. Do you have any information in that area?

i don't have available information from someone else for that, no.

but my personal take on this would be to try to use simple common sense, as long as you do not go to extremes, and keep records of what you are doing, use culling, you can avoid this particular hazard.

----------------

Wouldn't it have been easier to start with black cattle like Angus or solid colored cattle like Limousin than to try to breed the spots off longhorns? Easier and cheaper to start with beef cattle than to now try to breed more meat onto a breed that doesn't traditionally have it?

like i keep saying... beef is not the main focus of my herd but only one of several egg baskets,

and who said i was trying to "breed more meat onto a breed),,, me, myself and i, am trying to breed one whole breed? i dont think so, grins

but i am trying 3-4 animals with the beef style. i have to be able to put something in my own freezer, and deal with extra bull calves that keep popping up. this makes excellent use of dams with fuller maternal bodies.

-------------

But since there were so many Longhorns (and they were much cheaper than importing more cattle) they crossed Longhorns with the English breeds to improve beef production out of Longhorn cows.

exactly my point... you just said what i apparently didn't get across in my post.

-- ----

But I really think you're quoting Longhorn propaganda.

why is the longhorn propaganda any worse than the angus or anybody else's propaganda?

--------------------

I'm sorry, but when you post a picture of a seven year old bull that only weighs 1780 lbs, I have to question how much beef you'll get with even these "beefier" type animals.

ok,, first you get onto me for promoting beefier longhorns, that i am doing a diservice to the longhorn breed by doing so.

now you are saying that my bull is too little to make a difference. you can't have it both ways.

either he is or he isn't too beefy for the longhorn breed...

...and by being too beefy, will ultimately ruin the crossbreeding program and reputation.

-----------

several Longhorn breeders in my area. They don't do it for the money, they do it because they love the animals.

i had mentioned that i was treating my business as a business, so you hit me with "because they love the animals.",,

now, if i had said i was a hobby breeder, then you would have hit me with the fact that i cannot be taken seriously because i'm not treating this as a business.

no matter which i said, business or hobby, you would have countered with the opposite tact. a no win situation for me either way.

----------

Apparently you just don't deal with the color factor if you don't know what color or variety of colors a breeding will give you.

http://www.redandwhitecattle.com/geninh.html

these are the colors that you deal with in the link above.

---------------

http://home.austin.rr.com/doublehelix/color.html

this link above, is for the colors of the longhorns........


Considering all eight genetic loci (the ones discussed in this article) that are known to affect color and pattern in Texas Longhorns (Extension, Brindle, Dilution, Dun, Spotting, Color-sided, Roan, and Brockling), there are 26,244 different possible genotypic combinations of known alleles that can appear in an individual bull or cow. In addition, there are almost certainly many additional genes that affect color and pattern that have yet to be described, so the number of possible genotypic combinations for color and pattern is almost certainly many times larger. If we assume just two additional genes, each with three different possible alleles, then the number of possible genotypic combinations increases to 944,784! Since this latter number exceeds the number of registered Texas Longhorns, then there are almostly certainly possible genotypic combinations of color/pattern alleles that have not yet been observed in modern Texas Longhorn herds. Of course, all of these genotypic combinations do not produce distinctly different phenotypes, but this helps to explain why Texas Longhorns are "more varied than the colors of the rainbow," as J. Frank Dobie wrote in The Longhorns.


(again, the bold is my doing and not in the article.)

this particular paragraph is located towards the bottom of that page's link.

now... do you understand why longhorn colors are so unpreditable and much more challenging than what you would be dealing with in your commercial breeds?

--------------

We get over to the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge Longhorn Sale every few years to see real Longhorns.

that must mean i have only one real longhorn in my herd. seeing as how i bought a 6 month old heifer in '03 from the WR herd to use for blending.

she has just given me a solid colored dun heifer that will be perfect to breed back to my senior solid black bull. the dun heifer's dam is light red/yellow? with a little white, and lightly brindle.

.....this must mean that her heifer is only a half-real longhorn then, and the next generation down will be a quarter-real longhorn...


sorry,

in that particular paragragh you were actually being nice. so please take those two sentences above as silliness, and not in seriousness.

------------




and by talking about this in an open forum, just maybe, i can get someone else, to think out of the box......

Question: how many sides to a box do you see?

trick question you ask??






my answer: i see four sides, plus an inside, an outside, a topside, a bottomside, , my side, your side, wrong side, right side, leftside, upside down, rightside up, a kitty corner side, a catty corner side, a round 2 it side..... etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum



respectfully,

magpie

 

[Frankie]

The Texas Longhorn's lack of fat, once a cause of near-extinction, is now recognized as one of the breed's strong qualities. Health conscious modern nutritionists consistently condemn the heavy fat content of some beef and whole-heartedly support the use of less fat, lower cholesterol meats like the Texas Longhorn.

But consumers over and over express their preference for marbled beef by paying more for it. When Continental cattle became so popular, the USDA lowered the grading standards to get more beef labeled "Choice." And beef consumption dropped. For the last several years or so, beef consumption has been on the rise. I like to think that's partly because consumers have discovered that all beef is not the same. CAB led the way with a branded beef program. There are all kinds of branded beef programs today, many of them guarantee a satisfactory eating experience and beef consumption improving. Don't confuse backfat with marbling. The packers trim all beef and they discount cattle with too much backfat. But backfat can be managed to a certain extent in the feedlot. Marbling, on the other hand, is genetic and starts almost from birth. The last time I looked, Select beef was discounted about $15/cwt to Choice. Extend that $15/cwt premium over all animals you'll sell next year and you can see why producers are trying to produce Choice or better beef.

Research at Oregon State University found that Texas Longhorns were highly immune to the deadly tansy ragwort plant which plagues the northwestern cattle industry. Iowa State University found Texas Longhorns to be highly resistant to virtual immunity to pinkeye, another expensive malady, is also well documented.

Now I didn't know this. How many Longhorn cattle are there in the state of Oregon, I wonder? Just how "resistant" is "highly" resistant? And where's the documentation?

In a test of 11 breeds conducted by the U.S. Meat Animal Research Center, Texas Longhorn-sired calves graded USDA Choice 62%, a ratio of 104.2% compared to the all-breed test average. Longhorn-sired steers in this test had a 61.7% dressing percentage with an 81.8% ratio in fat thickness comparison. The Texas Longhorn-sired steers had an average fat thickness of 0.36" as compared with an average of 0.44" for the other 10 breed groups.

But the new MARC round of genetic evaluations doesn't even include Longhorns? So how long will the Longhorn people keep riding this old data. And this doesn't address the "beefy" type Longhorns that you're raising.

In scientific carcass evaluations, which will determine the future direction of the red meat industry, the Texas Longhorn's competitive strength over all other breeds is unique, due to their nature-produced anatomy and physiology. The National Western Stock show, in Denver, established the first and largest carcass evaluation in the world. A pen of five ¾-blood Texas Longhorn steers won Reserve Champion against all breeds with backfat ranging from 0.15" to 0.30". Yield grade ranged from 1.75 to 2.42 with rib-eye measurements over 13 sq. in.

No, scientific carcass evaluations will not determine the direction of the red meat industry. Consumer acceptance will have a big hand in that direction. And over and over, with their checkbooks, they tell us they prefer beef with marbling.

In 1987, a Texas Longhorn-cross six-steer entry placed 2nd in the heavyweight steer division. These steers averaged 0.41" back fat, after 105 days on feed. The steers weighed in at 1,197 lbs. and had an average of 14 sq. inches of rib-eye, a cutability of 51.4% and Yield Grade 2. A prime grade steer from this group was the highest indexing prime grade animal for two years in a row. The following year Texas Longhorn crosses placed one 1st, two 2nd's, and a 3rd against world class competition.

On the West Coast, 1st place in the Group Carcass category of the 3rd Annual California Street Futurity, California Polytechnic Institute, was won by Texas Longhorn crosses. Of a total of 240 steers, entered by 23 ranches, the Longhorn cross's 108.8 index was the best recorded. The winning steers started on feed at an average weight of 678 lbs. and after 110 days they finished at 1,052 lbs. with a 3.40 lb. average daily gain. The average carcass weighed 639.6 lbs. with a 62% dress on a quality grade average of Choice-minus, Yield Grade 2. The back fat averaged 0.33" and the rib-eye area average was 11.50 sq. inches. The Texas Longhorn group also led the conversion rate with less feed required per pound of gain.

This is hype with absolutely nothing to back it up. And we're talking about Longhorn crosses. Not Longhorns. Without know what they were crossed with, this information means nothing. If they were crossed with Simmental, the ASA could say, "see what Simmental can do! They can even make a Longhorn grade."

 

[Frankie]

Texas Longhorn Synthetic Breeds

Modern high tech cattle production methods may have deviated too much from the proven economic traits of the Texas Longhorn. Some animal scientists and cattlemen feel that most "modern cattle" are too big, too fat, and shaped wrong for easy birthing and lack disease resistance and longevity. To correct these trends, several exciting new synthetic breeds using Texas Longhorn blood have been developed. The "El Monterey," "Salorn" and "Geltex" are established, and others are in various stages of development.

These synthetic breeds are testing, scientifically, various breeding percentages of Texas Longhorn blood to develop an optimum range animal to meet the changing demands of today's consumer. These new Texas Longhorn synthetic breeds are excelling in producing Choice carcasses with a very high percentage of Yield Grades 1 and 2

"Some animal scientists and cattlemen…." I contend that most animal scientists and cattlemen feel that you should run cattle that work in your environment and produce the most and best beef possible. I checked the OK State Breeds site and only the Salorn "breed" shows up there. You can call anything a "breed." Years ago a young doctor moved to town here. He bought a lot of land, built a big house for his family and a nice house for a ranch manager and got into the Longhorn business. There were continually articles in the newspaper about how much he paid for this bull and that bull and shows that his cattle had won. Then that died out until he got involved in a breed called the Texon, Longhorns crossed with South Devons (I think; maybe just Devon?) Anyway, for several years at all the fairs and pasture tours, you saw Texons being promoted. Then that died out. When the doctor retired, sold out and moved, there wasn't a big dispersal Longhorn sale. From what I understood he was running commercial cattle on his ranch for the last years. Just because someone has crossed the Longhorn with another breed and gives it a name doesn't mean it will have any influence on the cattle industry.

 

[Frankie]

Who says Texas Longhorn cattle won't feed out?
Just ask Dick Robbins, Anchor D Ranch, Belvidere, KS.

For the past five years, Robbins has participated in the Pratt Area Extension Futurity at Pratt Feeders, Inc., Pratt. KS. According to Paul Hartman, County Extension Agent, the purpose of the futurity is to provide area cattle producers with data concerning live animal performance and carcass traits of steers produced from their herds. It helps the producer evaluate the kind of cattle he wants to fit into his livestock program and provides another marketing alternative by retaining ownership of steers. The unique thing about the futurity is that carcass traits are compiled and evaluated on each individual animal so that producers bring steers by different breeds, sires, and dams, and will let him genetically evaluate the best producing animal within his herd.

This year Robbins placed three groups of Texas Longhorn cross steers on test. The first group (Simmental bulls on Texas Longhorn cross cows) had an average daily gain (ADO) of 3.39 with a hot carcass weight of 740 lbs., dressing Out at 64.13%. All quality graded choice or select. Most of the steers yield graded 1 or 2. Cost/cwt gain was $45.71.

This one cracks me up. You see that in this paragraph above he gives the ADG and cost of gain on the steers by Simmental/Longhorn cross cows? (We don't know what % Longhorn these animals were) Then below….

The other two groups were fullblood Texas Longhorn X fullblood Simmental. Together they had a final ADG of 2.72, dressing at 62.49. All 23 quality graded choice or select, again with yield grades of 1 or 2.

Then we come to the fullblood Longhorn/Simmental cross cattle and he lumps their performance together. Why? Because they didn't do very well. We don't know when this happened, but today an ADG of 2.72 is not "a good thing." I think the ADG in commercial feedlots is over 3 lbs! Heck, the last Angus test at my bull station had five bulls gaining over 6 lbs per day! I think this shows that my claim that Longhorns didn't almost die out because they were such good "terminal" crosses as you claimed. They almost died out because the less Longhorn blood an animal had the better performance you got.

It was also noted that the Texas Longhorn cross steers had the lowest hospital bill of any animals entered.

Robbins uses the data collected from the futurity as a marketing tool. "More folks should take advantage of tests like this," says Robbins. It gives you an idea how your breeding program is doing and gives other folks concrete evidence of what Texas Longhorns can do in their herd."

If you're sending cattle to the feedlot, you'd better have a good herd health program. I'm a great believer in feeding some of your own cattle. Why don't you consider sending some of your steers through the Ranch to Rail program? Believe me, it's a learning experience.

Oops, almost forgot the Disclaimer. Every should read the Disclaimer:

Neither Lucky S & L Ranch, Business & Employee Development, nor the owners thereof accept any liability for the use, relevance or accuracy of the information provided. In addition, errors may have occurred in formatting this material for this web site, and readers are cautioned to verify all information through other sources.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

This obviously controversial post is being deleted by me. No point in perpetuating this type of dialog. I probably should have never posted it in the first place.

Bill.

 

[dun]

I'm still wondering shy anyone would be excited about an animal grading select. Other then old culls, anything should be able to grade select. Choice is a whole different matter.

dun

 

[magpie]

you are correct dun, thank you.



i had had bold faced the wrong word. i had meant the word choice... duh me

sighs,, shuffles over to the corner, bangs head...

lightly, .....i'm not into pain




ok,, all ready now, for my next blunder of the day, week, or hour... grins



hey dun,, that is a cool avitar you have there.



magpie