New Dodge Diesel

[allenfarms]

Hey just lookin for inputs on Dodges new motor/tranny combo. This truck is supposed to be the best on the road. Bigger Diesel Engine, with other upgrades as well and the new Aison tranny. IF anybody has one yet, and your thoughts on their existing setup.

The issues with their front end were supposed to be fixed. And I have been shopping around at the three. Ford, GM, Dodge.

I have never owned a diesel, but will in 2007 just don't know what yet.

My beef with chevy and ford is their torque curves. GM Preaches HP but if those salesman know any thing about Power, they would know it's TORQUE that gets you there and HP that keeps ya there. PLease Help.

I have heard nothing but trouble from fords 6.0 overheating and turbo goin out. but according to salesman they also have a new truck coming with a dual turbo one low one high and a new engine that has recieved extensice field testing unlike their current 6.0 that recieved none.

Anyway Ya'lls inputs would be greatly appriciated!!![/b]

 

[MrBilly]

I have a 2003 dually with the High output Cummins, and the six speed manual shifter. So far not a problem with it and I love the truck. I bought Dodge because of the Cummins engine - has fewer moving parts!

Billy

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

About the only thing I'd be remotely scared of in the new Cummins is the Variable Geometry Turbocharger. These things have been around for years, and no-one's managed to perfect them yet. You walk into a Detroit shop and say VGT, every mechanic in the place will smile and big dollar signs will show in their eyes.

Other than the VGT, and some of the new emissions junk, its pretty much the same old Cummins with more cubes.

Rod

 

[Earl Thigpen]

Hey just lookin for inputs on Dodges new motor/tranny combo. This truck is supposed to be the best on the road. Bigger Diesel Engine, with other upgrades as well and the new Aison tranny. IF anybody has one yet, and your thoughts on their existing setup.

The issues with their front end were supposed to be fixed. And I have been shopping around at the three. Ford, GM, Dodge.

I have never owned a diesel, but will in 2007 just don't know what yet.

My beef with chevy and ford is their torque curves. GM Preaches HP but if those salesman know any thing about Power, they would know it's TORQUE that gets you there and HP that keeps ya there. PLease Help.

I have heard nothing but trouble from fords 6.0 overheating and turbo goin out. but according to salesman they also have a new truck coming with a dual turbo one low one high and a new engine that has recieved extensice field testing unlike their current 6.0 that recieved none.

Anyway Ya'lls inputs would be greatly appriciated!!![/b]

HP=Torque X RPM / 5252

 

[novaman]

Hey just lookin for inputs on Dodges new motor/tranny combo. This truck is supposed to be the best on the road. Bigger Diesel Engine, with other upgrades as well and the new Aison tranny. IF anybody has one yet, and your thoughts on their existing setup.

The issues with their front end were supposed to be fixed. And I have been shopping around at the three. Ford, GM, Dodge.

I have never owned a diesel, but will in 2007 just don't know what yet.

My beef with chevy and ford is their torque curves. GM Preaches HP but if those salesman know any thing about Power, they would know it's TORQUE that gets you there and HP that keeps ya there. PLease Help.

I have heard nothing but trouble from fords 6.0 overheating and turbo goin out. but according to salesman they also have a new truck coming with a dual turbo one low one high and a new engine that has recieved extensice field testing unlike their current 6.0 that recieved none.

Anyway Ya'lls inputs would be greatly appriciated!!![/b]

Don't mean to get off subject but your backwards. It takes horsepower to get up to speed and torque to hold it.

 

[allenfarms]

Torque provides acceleration. We know this from physics where Force = mass * acceleration, and Force = Torque / length. So, acceleration = Torque / (mass * length).

To put it another way, the engine's torque is transferred to the pavement as a force from the tire tread. When the car is at a rest, this force causes the car to accelerate. As the car's speed increases, its aerodynamic drag (a force) and rolling resistance (another force) must be overcome. While the force applied to the pavement is greater than the sum of these counter-acting forces, the car will accelerate.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Allenfarms nailed it. Horsepower is simply a description of how much work is being done over time, nothing more. Torque determines acceleration. More torque at lower RPM will always outwork and outaccelerate the same torque at high RPM, if measured from a dead stop, and given all other things constant (gearing, aerodynamics, etc).

Rod

 

[oscar p]

I have a 05 dodge dually 4x4 with the 600 high output cummins, No gripes here. My paw in law has the 05 dura max, he has had his back to the dealer severel times. I sure do like the new mega cabs dodge has come out with.

 

[allenfarms]

If we get a new truck we are def. leaning on Dodge. and yes the mega cab is right up my lane. What a truck.

 

[Earl Thigpen]

Folks,

The formula for CALCULATING horsepower (as in a pony brake) is torque times RPM divided by 5252. In other words, horsepower is DERIVED from torque and RPM's.

Diesels tend to have heavy reciprocating parts because of the way they support combustion. Pistons are heavy, rods are heavy, wrist pins are massive and the crankshaft is very heavy. When you get all that heavy cast iron spinning it produce copious amounts of TORQUE at a fairly low RPM which is exactly the reason you get that feeling of being able to pull a house down with your diesel truck off idle. You can do the same thing with a puller at the county fair, the only difference being RPM. The diesel PU will pull the house down at 3000 RPM but the puller can do the same thing but at 9000 RPM (and a lot more HP because of the RPM).

By the way, the electric tool manufactures have found out about the pony brake HP calculation and have started marketing their tools using it. Ever wonder why a very small drill motor or circular saw or router is rated 2 1/4 HP, 3 HP or Sears now with a vacuum cleaner at 5 HP. In physics, a horsepower is defined as 746 watts (it takes 746 watts of energy to move the mass over a given distance in a given amount of time). You can round it up to 1000 watts because of inefficiences in the windings etc. So it amazes me that I'll see an advertized 3 HP rating on a saw that only draws 15 amps @ 120v. In case you missed it that's only 1800 watts and yet physics says you need at least 2238 watts to generate 3 hp. 3000 watts is a more accurate number.

 

[nenmrancher]

Hey Allenfarms, My cousin has one of those mega cabs and really likes it for most every thing. The only gripe he has is that some gooseneck trailers dont work real well behind it. The bed is short enough that anything with anykind of enclosure on the neck wont turn as sharp. He has to be real careful about how sharp he turns.

 

[Earl Thigpen]

Folks,

The formula for CALCULATING horsepower (as in a pony brake) is torque times RPM divided by 5252. In other words, horsepower is DERIVED from torque and RPM's.

Diesels tend to have heavy reciprocating parts because of the way they support combustion. Pistons are heavy, rods are heavy, wrist pins are massive and the crankshaft is very heavy. When you get all that heavy cast iron spinning it produce copious amounts of TORQUE at a fairly low RPM which is exactly the reason you get that feeling of being able to pull a house down with your diesel truck off idle. You can do the same thing with a puller at the county fair, the only difference being RPM. The diesel PU will pull the house down at 3000 RPM but the puller can do the same thing but at 9000 RPM (and a lot more HP because of the RPM).

By the way, the electric tool manufactures have found out about the pony brake HP calculation and have started marketing their tools using it. Ever wonder why a very small drill motor or circular saw or router is rated 2 1/4 HP, 3 HP or Sears now with a vacuum cleaner at 5 HP. In physics, a horsepower is defined as 746 watts (it takes 746 watts of energy to move the mass over a given distance in a given amount of time). You can round it up to 1000 watts because of inefficiences in the windings etc. So it amazes me that I'll see an advertized 3 HP rating on a saw that only draws 15 amps @ 120v. In case you missed it that's only 1800 watts and yet physics says you need at least 2238 watts to generate 3 hp. 3000 watts is a more accurate number.

Sorry, that's Prony brake, not Pony.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

The formula for CALCULATING horsepower (as in a pony brake) is torque times RPM divided by 5252. In other words, horsepower is DERIVED from torque and RPM's.

Diesels tend to have heavy reciprocating parts because of the way they support combustion. Pistons are heavy, rods are heavy, wrist pins are massive and the crankshaft is very heavy. When you get all that heavy cast iron spinning it produce copious amounts of TORQUE at a fairly low RPM which is exactly the reason you get that feeling of being able to pull a house down with your diesel truck off idle. You can do the same thing with a puller at the county fair, the only difference being RPM. The diesel PU will pull the house down at 3000 RPM but the puller can do the same thing but at 9000 RPM (and a lot more HP because of the RPM).

While you are correct that _some_ of the torque of a diesel is simply derived from the heavier rotating mass, its a relatively small part of the equation. Most of the torque is derived from diesel having more stored energy and efficiency of combustion.

Take a look at a torque curve of an inline 6 versus a V8. The inline motor, whether it be gas or diesel, is able to generate more bottom side torque due to all the pistons generating the same straight line push on the crankshaft. V series engines are simply not able to transfer as much of the energy to the crankshaft and some gets wasted.

Bringing us back to the topic at hand, neither the D-Max nor the Powerstroke are able to generate as much bottom side torque, due to their being a V design. Take a gander at the published torque curves. The Cummins reaches torque peak at 1400 RPM while the V engines peak at around 2500 RPM (give or take a couple hundred, depending on the engine). While Chevy and Ford have been able to work around this with gearing, if you were to plant a 600 lbft Cummins into a Chevy (or Ford), replacing the 600 lbft V series engine, you _would_ have better acceleration and pull the same load faster. You will also have better lugging ability in hills, as the V series torque curve is linear, not flat. This means that as you drop RPMs, you're losing torque. You lose torque, you drop RPMs faster, and it becomes a viscous circle. The flat torque curve on the other hand will lose RPMs, but not anywhere near as quickly since when you drop RPMs, you're not losing any torque.

Rod

 

[oscar p]

Hey Allenfarms, My cousin has one of those mega cabs and really likes it for most every thing. The only gripe he has is that some gooseneck trailers dont work real well behind it. The bed is short enough that anything with anykind of enclosure on the neck wont turn as sharp. He has to be real careful about how sharp he turns.

I can see where that would be a problem. Turning in tight places took a little getting used to, when I got the 4door. The 4door is the only way to go

 

[allenfarms]

I do believe that what Rod is trying to say is "Redneck Bull**it aside, from a scientific standpoint as well as common sence says that A dodge Diesel is the most powerful truck on the market!

Also after further investigation, Record Holding Modified Truck pull Champ since 2001 is a 1200HP 5.9L cummins w/ 1800 ft/lb of torque.

Also the fastest truck in the world is a banks powered cummins.

I will definetly be buying a dodge.

 

[allenfarms]

So Oscar, 4 door quad cab? or Mega cab?

 

[EKUgrad]

I have an 05 Dodge with the older NV5600. I have not had the first mechanical problem with the truck. The sheet metal is too thin and the paint scratches if you stare at it, but not a mechanical problem at all.

I will be looking for something different this fall -- the rowing through the gears has gotten to be a bit much on my bad knee.

I would not worry too much about the VGT that the Cummins is going to use -- it will be the simplest design, and it will provide improved retarding pressure when compared to conventional aftermarket exhaust brakes according to Dodge literature.

A note on torque curves -- the Dmax has had a more beneficial torque curve than the Cummins for the past couple of years. It peaks as low as the 5.9, and has more torque rise than the 5.9. The whole I6 vs V8 configuration argument in today's ECM controlled world does not have the same merit that it had, say, 10 years or even 5 years ago.

The GM twins and Ford have a significantly new product for this fall, while Dodge has a new powertrain. Any way that you slice it, you will be getting a new model year product, with the potential for new model year problems.

Depending on your needs/uses, the best bet would be to get a LBZ Dmax with all of the incentives and less emissions crap right now. That is what many of the diesel techs and those in the know are promoting, and what Mr. Truck (mrtruck.net) predicted many months ago.

Good luck.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

A note on torque curves -- the Dmax has had a more beneficial torque curve than the Cummins for the past couple of years. It peaks as low as the 5.9, and has more torque rise than the 5.9. The whole I6 vs V8 configuration argument in today's ECM controlled world does not have the same merit that it had, say, 10 years or even 5 years ago.

Please show me a Dmax torque curve that peaks at 1400 RPM. Even show me a stock Dmax curve that has more torque at 1400 RPM than a stock Cummins at 1400 RPM. Explain how its a "more beneficial torque curve" including how torque rise is all that beneficial in todays world of 6 speed transmissions.

And the "I6 vs V8" arguement still has all the merit now that it did 10 years. An ECM controls your injection pulse width and timing, it doesn't change the physics behind why an engine configuration inherently produces more bottom side torque than a different configuration.

Rod

 

[allenfarms]

Ya really, I mean where did you get your stats. Look at the STOCK torque curves "NOT PEAKS" of Dodge, GM, and Ford.
Dodge has a consistently high curve throughout. And as far as the I6 VS V8, the ECM will only take you so far when "adding power" Every "truck shop" around here that spray bed liners chips, banks, ect. All recamend a dodge.

People can say what they want about the 6.0 ford, but the turbo was placed in a bad spot and causes overheating. And the truck to overheat or turbo go out. As for their new truck and setup, I have heard that due to emissions it may never hit the market.

GM - A dealer himself told me to stick with Dodge, the duramax for '07 will jump in price and lose power due to some change ups.

 

[EKUgrad]

OK, fellas, settle down.... nothing personal. I will find that and post it this evening when I get home from work.

First, both the current 5.9 in Dodge applications and the LBZ Duramax torque peak is found at 1600rpm, not 1400 rpm.

The 6.7 will have two different ratings in pickups depending on the tranny -- 610 @ 1400rpm with the manual and 650 @ 1500rpm with the new six speed auto.

Currently, the Dmax maintains a higher torque number at any point along the rpm curve. This may change with the introduction of the 6.7 with the auto tranny, but I don't know.

A flat torque curve is NOT ideal for a tow vehicle -- you want a torque curve that peaks early and stays high, but not level. This is where the "torque rise" calculation comes from -- and it is this number that is often touted in tractors. Reason being -- you are towing a loaded trailer and approach a hill. Load increases, rpms start to drop requiring more "oomph" from the motor -- if the torque curve is flat, it has no more "oomph" to give, requiring a down shift.

With auto trans, you will not lug along at 1500rpm with much throttle requirements -- normal operating ranges are higher than that.

I love the Cummins (which is why I am driving the Dodge), but the LBZ / Ally is the best combo right now (until all of the new ones come out, too early to tell about that).