Diesel gelling

[SBMF 2015]

Here #1 is Kerosene. There is a winter blend of #2 but we still treat it when it gets cold.
Seems like I have seen a 50/50 blend somewhere in the Dakotas or Montana.

I run 50/50 treated in the winter. Get along really well 95% of the time, but Friday morning in was -40 wind chill and my 5425 JD said um, nope. It never died, but it went from 1500 rpms to 1000 and smoked. Made it back to the shed, new fuel filter and good as new.

 

[Silver]

Here #1 is Kerosene. There is a winter blend of #2 but we still treat it when it gets cold.
Seems like I have seen a 50/50 blend somewhere in the Dakotas or Montana.

I think it's more involved than that. Additives, cetane, paraffin and such come into play. We may need @Caustic Burno to chime in.

 

[kenny thomas]

We don't have 50/50 here. And Kerosene is over $6 a gallon I guess is the reason

 

[Rmc]

I think it's more involved than that. Additives, cetane, paraffin and such come into play. We may need @Caustic Burno to chime in.

Don't think they have much high paraffin waxy crude in Texas. As far as I know all crude in Texas is able to be transported in non insulated tanks, unlike the various crudes of the intermountain west that have to be transported in insulated tanks to maintain a temp of over 100 degrees f
At least he has failed to answer how much first hand experience he has with high paraffin crude .

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Wind chill has no effect on non-living things. It will cause them to cool down quicker but only as low as the actual temp is.

As a mechanic I get lots of calls for "gelled" fuel. 7/10 times it is a dirty fuel filter from ordinary rust/dirt/sludge/etc clogging the filter and the cold thick diesel just won't flow thru that junk. If you pull the filter and liquid fuel comes out its not usually gelled. Gelled fuel will be the consistency of peanut butter most of the time and when the filters are pulled they will often be "glued" in place.

As for #2 gelling above 32 I've never seen or heard of that anywhere.

 

[Rmc]

Wind chill has no effect on non-living things. It will cause them to cool down quicker but only as low as the actual temp is.

As a mechanic I get lots of calls for "gelled" fuel. 7/10 times it is a dirty fuel filter from ordinary rust/dirt/sludge/etc clogging the filter and the cold thick diesel just won't flow thru that junk. If you pull the filter and liquid fuel comes out its not usually gelled. Gelled fuel will be the consistency of peanut butter most of the time and when the filters are pulled they will often be "glued" in place.

As for #2 gelling above 32 I've never seen or heard of that anywhere.

I would recommend that you do more research into diesel and how cold affects it. Diesel doesn't have to be completely frozen or "gelled" to prevent vehicles from using it effectively to generate power in the engine.
The more important is the "cloud point " of the fuel . Cloud point is when the paraffin in the fuel starts to crystallize and revert to a more solid state.
Depending on what the base crude was used can happen at temps as high as 40 f . Another important thing to know is the CFFP (cold filter plug point)
The CFFP is a measurement to determine when the diesel would plug a 45 micron filter. Usually the CFFP is usually only a few degrees lower than the cloud point.
As a so called self proclaimed "mechanic " you should be aware of the smaller and smaller micron filtration of newer diesel engines that are required to meet epa standards.
I believe the requirement for fuel filters for the 6.7 Cummins have been 2 microns since 2017.
For comparison I believe the average human hair is around 50 microns in diameter.
So all that needs to happen to "gel" up a vehicle is enough solidification to occur to plug the fuel filter in the vehicle to prevent enough fuel to get to the point of combustion in order to prevent the vehicle from starting.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

I guess living and wrenching on diesels in the frozen north I assume our base crude is such that it won't gel at 40 degrees. If that was the case our fuel would be at risk of gelling 12 months of the year (I've seen frost in each of the 12 months here). Gelling or getting cloudy at 40 degrees must be a down south thing.

Case and point I went on a call yesterday for "gelled fuel". Tractor was running but barely and low/no power. Knocked the filter off and black gunk came out along with clean red liquid fuel. That black sludge was a mix of water/dirt/rust/bacteria/etc, when that gunk got down to -20 degrees the clean fuel had no chance of making it thru the filter. New filter and ZERO additives and it fired right up and went to work. Told the customer to change the filter more often than 4 years.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Hot secret is my go to. Run summer fuel all year loingng down to -40F actually temp without issue. If you can't find it Howes is decent.

White bottle diesel 911 is mediocre at best.

Red bottle diesel 911 is NOT a preventative its to try and clear up already jellied fuel. It can be hard of injection pumps because is has no lube properties.

How does 911 clear jellied fuel? When does it not work?

How well does Schaeffer's Treat 2000 prevent jelling?

 

[Rmc]

If 911 clears jellied fuel, how con it not "prevent" jell if it is put in before that happens?

Because of how it is designed. It is a one and done product. It will turn any solids back into liquid at the time it is added. But it has no residual effect.
911 is a degell only . Once it is added it has no long term effect on the fuel.
Your fuel can and will gell back up after you have degelled it with 911 if you don't take additional measures.

 

[Stocker Steve]

all that needs to happen to "gel" up a vehicle is enough solidification to occur to plug the fuel filter in the vehicle to prevent enough fuel to get to the point of combustion in order to prevent the vehicle from starting

Can raising the temperature, or pouring in 911, unplug a fuel filter well enough so u do not need to replace it?

 

[Stocker Steve]

Because of how it is designed. It is a one and done product. It will turn any solids back into liquid at the time it is added. But it has no residual effect.
911 is a degell only . Once it is added it has no long term effect on the fuel.
Your fuel can and will gell back up after you have degelled it with 911 if you don't take additional measures.

Residual effect is for hours or days or?

 

[Rmc]

Residual effect is for hours or days or?

Maybe hours if that
You can't expect your rotors to not have brake dust on them just because you cleaned them off with brake cleaner when you replaced your brakes last week.

 

[Rmc]

Can raising the temperature, or pouring in 911, unplug a fuel filter well enough so u do not need to replace it?

Possible yes
Recommended no
Filters are cheap when compared to price of new engine or replacement vehicle

 

[Stocker Steve]

Maybe hours if that

So if your tractor fuel alarm starts to flash, or you start to lose power - - add 911 immediately along with some preventative stuff at the same time?

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

If I have a machine that is running but poorly I change filter. Have a look at the inside of filter. If it appears gelled at all I add 911 to the filter and tank, along with some hot shot secret. Restart and hope for the best.

 

[Rmc]

So if your tractor fuel alarm starts to flash, or you start to lose power - - add 911 immediately along with some preventative stuff at the same time?

Why wait to get to that point. Prevention is a far better option in my opinion.
That is why you want to pretreat prior to the possibility of gelling. Use clean fuel and change filters as recommended or at least once a year.

 

[coachg]

My next question; what temperature will DEF freeze and or not function ? Saturday morning at 6 degrees my kubota threw a code telling me possible engine issues and to shut down . Seems to be Running fine except loss of power . Sick feeling when it's fairly new and you've got hay to put out ! 18 this morning and no code .

 

[Atimm693]

My next question; what temperature will DEF freeze and or not function ? Saturday morning at 6 degrees my kubota threw a code telling me possible engine issues and to shut down . Seems to be Running fine except loss of power . Sick feeling when it's fairly new and you've got hay to put out ! 18 this morning and no code .

Like 12 degrees. Usually there is an electric heater or coolant lines running through the reservoir to thaw it out.

 

[Rmc]

All def is is approx 32 percent liquid urea and water. In theory freezing and thawing doesn't compromise def. Biggest problem I see is using def that is old and or not stored properly. Def isn't stable over about 85 degrees most manufacturers recommend storing it at or below 75 degrees and out of direct sunlight.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

DEF freezes around 12 degrees. I've seen it freeze up solid and split the def tank, def pump, and lines in subzero temps when the purge/return pump fails to operate properly. Also most OEMs recommend not filling the DEF tank completely full in the winter at it expands about 7% as it freezes.