Need advice/help

[denvermartinfarms]

The number of cows and calves he can/will run, depends on his business plan, that he is just now trying to put together.
IMO, to discuss stocking rate now, is premature.
Liz

Yougottabeshitingme

Of course not. How many acres a person has is in no regard important or relevant to how many cattle you can have.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I'll try to be brief. A wealthy frined of my family wants me to come up with a business plan for his 70 acres of pasture to make money with cattle. He isn't looking to get rich as he already is but just to make a small profit or as much as reasonably possible.

1. 70 acres of pasture some creek bottom and some hills in good condition and hasn't been grazed in years just cut and not for hay
2. yr. round creek for water.
3. fencing is there in place
4. need cattle facilities that can handle 40-50 cows with calves--(corral, squeeze chute etc.)
5. water troughs, hay feeders, etc.

I'm sure I'm leaving things but this is a start.

I would get to be a part of this venture just because he's that kind of guy and he's fronting all the expenses. If he makes some money and I make some he's happy. I know we're not going to make much but it's just another little trickle for me and him.

You would be better off going into a partnership on a bass boat.
That will turn into a pile of pasture protein as well.
I would go with he just hire you for management and labor.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Hay folks, please knock off the BS.
I just did a psychological profile on cattlepower and he is NOT just another collage student trying to get us to do his homework for him.
He is an honest sincere person trying his damdist to get into the cattle business anyway he can.
So lets try our damdest to help him as he may just have found his calling, please.

If you don't believe me, do an advanced search on him and read all his 116 posts.
Liz

Sounds like stalking to me.

 

[greybeard]

I would get to be a part of this venture just because he's that kind of guy and he's fronting all the expenses. If he makes some money and I make some he's happy. I know we're not going to make much but it's just another little trickle for me and him.

I'd sure find out exactly what "part" of the venture you would play first, what's in it for you if things go good and what you might get stuck in ya if they don't.
Paid consultant?
Manager?
Fall guy?
Silent partner?

Is he going to be a Bob McNair type owner or more like Jerry Jones? (Is he going to macro or micromanage from afar?)

Is there any infrastructure there at all other than a perimeter fence and a natural creek?
Somewhere to store hay?
Electricity?
All year all weather access Road?
Does it flood?
How far from you? How much time is it going to take away from your efforts regarding your own cattle or full time job?
Have you seen the place other than mid-winter--Sounds like it has been mowed just to keep weeds and light brush down for several years--is there actually any grass there?
If Tenn is like Texas, it will have to be in ag endeavors for 5 consecutive years before he can even get ag property tax exemption.
Easiest way for him to make a little $$ on 70 acres might be for him to lease it out as pasture.

 

[OakCreekRanch]

Hay folks, please knock off the BS.
I just did a psychological profile on cattlepower and he is NOT just another collage student trying to get us to do his homework for him.
He is an honest sincere person trying his damdist to get into the cattle business anyway he can.
So lets try our damdest to help him as he may just have found his calling, please.

If you don't believe me, do an advanced search on him and read all his 116 posts.
Liz

I think you scared cattlepower off. :shock:

 

[HDRider]

We have pretty good ground around here and there is no way you will "make money" on 70 acres - it is a hobby farm in my mind.

Well, I suppose you might make a couple hundred buck - but the expenses are going to be high and the income is going to be low.

But .... he will get a tax write off from the losses.

I would bet you a coffee that is what he is truly after.

I would run from this deal as it sits right now

Bez

I hear what your saying and don't disagree. With what little I thought I knew, I thought the IRS will disallow losses unless there is a year with a profit every so often.

 

[cattlepower]

I know it doesn't make sense to most of you and you might be right.

-It has a good hay barn
-It has another more traditional barn where we will put working facilities with electricity
-It has yr. round good access road
-It's a 1/2 mile from where I live
-yr. round natural creek, no flooding
-I lived right near it for 7 years and see it all the time

OK, he's doing this mainly to help me out (close family friend) and somehow for a tax advantage for himself. I don't completely understand the tax part of it but I know he does as he is quite wealthy and he didn't get that way from being dumb. Besides my time there is no money investment from me. We haven't signed a contract yet and he has already set it up as a LLC. His initial large investment on the front end is not going to be recouped and he knows that and isn't expecting to get that back. He wants to get it operating and let me run it and receive a % of the gross sales annually. It will obvioulsy be a PT income for me with also making sure he's breaking even or making a small profit.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I know it doesn't make sense to most of you and you might be right.

-It has a good hay barn
-It has another more traditional barn where we will put working facilities with electricity
-It has yr. round good access road
-It's a 1/2 mile from where I live
-yr. round natural creek, no flooding
-I lived right near it for 7 years and see it all the time

OK, he's doing this mainly to help me out (close family friend) and somehow for a tax advantage for himself. I don't completely understand the tax part of it but I know he does as he is quite wealthy and he didn't get that way from being dumb. Besides my time there is no money investment from me. We haven't signed a contract yet and he has already set it up as a LLC. His initial large investment on the front end is not going to be recouped and he knows that and isn't expecting to get that back. He wants to get it operating and let me run it and receive a % of the gross sales annually. It will obvioulsy be a PT income for me with also making sure he's breaking even or making a small profit.

Business is business
The rest is Bullsh!t.
Quickest way to end up mortal enemies for life is a partnership.
It might not happen right away, human nature one of the partners feels they are being taken advantage
of eventually and resentful.
Somebody has to be the boss and the rest are labor.

 

[pdfangus]

I would get to be a part of this venture just because he's that kind of guy and he's fronting all the expenses. If he makes some money and I make some he's happy. I know we're not going to make much but it's just another little trickle for me and him.

I'd sure find out exactly what "part" of the venture you would play first, what's in it for you if things go good and what you might get stuck in ya if they don't.
Paid consultant?
Manager?
Fall guy?
Silent partner?

Is he going to be a Bob McNair type owner or more like Jerry Jones? (Is he going to macro or micromanage from afar?)

Is there any infrastructure there at all other than a perimeter fence and a natural creek?
Somewhere to store hay?
Electricity?
All year all weather access Road?
Does it flood?
How far from you? How much time is it going to take away from your efforts regarding your own cattle or full time job?
Have you seen the place other than mid-winter--Sounds like it has been mowed just to keep weeds and light brush down for several years--is there actually any grass there?
If Tenn is like Texas, it will have to be in ag endeavors for 5 consecutive years before he can even get ag property tax exemption.
Easiest way for him to make a little $$ on 70 acres might be for him to lease it out as pasture.

don't worry greybeard.....
Liz is going to have everything covered in the business plan where the stocking rate is immaterial....

 

[John SD]

Since the future of this proposed endeavor potentially seems up in the air, at this point I would suggest a portable tub and panels as an alternative to the work and expense of installing a permanent corral facility.

Around here a lot of guys rent equipment to work cattle for the day. Especially in remote locations that are far fom any permanent corral. Stur-D tubs and Vern's panels are quite popular here for doing fall shots and preg checking.

If something like daily equipment rental is not available in your area, your "wealthy" partner could buy the equipment. He can write it off his income taxes as a business expense.

Should you decide to discontinue this endeavor, the equipment holds its value quite well and the guy could likely sell and get his money back out of it.

 

[greybeard]

Not gonna comment on stocking rate except to say 2011 Texas drought and it's long term financial consequences are still very fresh in my mind..

 

[John SD]

Not gonna comment on stocking rate except to say 2011 Texas drought and it's long term financial consequences are still very fresh in my mind..

Yep.

In western SD, if you figure 20 - 25 acres per pair in an average year, then 70 acres could run about 3 cows.

No way in a drought.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

Here depending on how good it is and how much fence you have, everyone figures anywhere from 2 to about 5 acres per pair. I run most of mine at 3 to 4 acres. I have been hearing that some of these places to the east of here are running up to a pair an acre, that's hard for me to see. I wouldn't want more than 30 pair on any 70 acres, but that's just me.

 

[cattlepower]

Since the future of this proposed endeavor potentially seems up in the air, at this point I would suggest a portable tub and panels as an alternative to the work and expense of installing a permanent corral facility.

Around here a lot of guys rent equipment to work cattle for the day. Especially in remote locations that are far fom any permanent corral. Stur-D tubs and Vern's panels are quite popular here for doing fall shots and preg checking.

If something like daily equipment rental is not available in your area, your "wealthy" partner could buy the equipment. He can write it off his income taxes as a business expense.

Should you decide to discontinue this endeavor, the equipment holds its value quite well and the guy could likely sell and get his money back out of it.

Are you talking about this setup:

http://www.fastline.com/v100/2012-Stur- ... b650c.aspx


If so that's way too expensive as we can build it much cheaper than that with what we already have to work with. But, thank you for the suggestion

 

[denvermartinfarms]

About 25 80$ 12ft panels anchored with T post' and a portable squeeze chute is all you would have to buy to do what you need to do.

 

[greybeard]

Mighty fine looking tub!!
But, at $9150 for the squeeze and tub, and you still have to build or buy a holding pen and sorting area. It's overkill for the acreage involved--imo.
Gonna be hard to recoup that new capital investment back.
As stated above, twenty five good tube panels and a squeeze/head gate is the way to go if you want to do it economically (yes, I know--it isn't your $$ being spent)

I can pretty easily handle 20 pairs in mine. Consists of about 22 panels, with a sweep, holding pen, alley, load chute, sort gate, and separate working chute/hdgate, and a few gates and I don't have $6K in it. Not truly portable (like the ones you see where every item is stackable and movable on a trailer in one trip) But if I wanted to disassemble it and move it down the road, I could do it in one day and have it back up and running.

Since the future of this proposed endeavor potentially seems up in the air, at this point I would suggest a portable tub and panels as an alternative to the work and expense of installing a permanent corral facility.

Around here a lot of guys rent equipment to work cattle for the day. Especially in remote locations that are far fom any permanent corral. Stur-D tubs and Vern's panels are quite popular here for doing fall shots and preg checking.

If something like daily equipment rental is not available in your area, your "wealthy" partner could buy the equipment. He can write it off his income taxes as a business expense.

Should you decide to discontinue this endeavor, the equipment holds its value quite well and the guy could likely sell and get his money back out of it.

Are you talking about this setup:

http://www.fastline.com/v100/2012-Stur- ... b650c.aspx


If so that's way too expensive as we can build it much cheaper than that with what we already have to work with. But, thank you for the suggestion

 

[Caustic Burno]

Not gonna comment on stocking rate except to say 2011 Texas drought and it's long term financial consequences are still very fresh in my mind..

That is the reason there is 12 girls out in the pasture and not 30.
I have to move the hay rack every couple of days the ground is slop here.
This too will pass as we are only one day away from the next drought.

 

[John SD]

That why I mentioned renting a unit first. IIRC, the $150 to rent a $10K portable tub for a day's work ain't a bad deal.

Rent on a Saturday, work cattle for 2 days when you have extra help from the city visit over the weekend, and return the tub first thing Monday morning. Then you get 2 days use out of the tub for $100. :idea:

Have a smaller job and don't need a tub for all day? Go in with a neighbor and do both jobs on the same day. ;-)

The business has at least 2 tubs they rent out every season. I've helped work cattle for several neighbors, all using the same tub. I bet if that thing could talk it could tell some stories. :nod:

I recognize the tub as the same unit because it does have a certain part of the frame bent just a bit. I suspect a run-in with someone's loader trying to make an "adjustment." :roll:

Same place also rents out For-Most squeeze chute's and Stur-D and Vern's panels/loading chutes on a per day basis.

Neighbor who bought my place owns his own tub and uses my existing corral. My corral has about 30 panels plugging the holes in it. I let the panels go with the place as the panels were the only reason my corral was workable.

 

[John SD]

About 25 80$ 12ft panels anchored with T post' and a portable squeeze chute is all you would have to buy to do what you need to do.

$80 is a heck of a deal for good 12' panels.

Found a August 2012 catalog listing 12' standard panels @ $135 each. 10' priced @ $122.

Might be quantity discounts but even so would never get close to $80.

http://www.vernsmfg.com/panels.html

 

[Newberry Creek]

Cheap panels will be a waste of time no matter what the size of your cattle. Way cheaper and better to fix # 4 where it works for you. Add a gate and fortify the area that you will be putting pressure on them. This is a long term fix that makes sense.