My Red Brangus Bull (PIcs of calves added)

[Caustic Burno]

Jeanne actually I like Simms as well as many others. Every breed has filled a niche. Even tried Simm bulls one time big mistake, in all fairness it wasn't the breeds fault but mine. Hard lessond learned in my youth about matching the right bull to the right set of cows for your enviroment. I don't like Angus and have an Angus bull standing in my pasture, I love baldies to get them I have to have that Angus bull. I really like a Hereford but again unless they are not in a crossbred system here involving Char/Brangus/Angus cross you are going to get hammered at the barn.
I love the Brimmers again they have to be in a terminal system or you will be hammered an even bigger problem is the steer calves. I really like the Brangus girls as well, I hate the bulls as I still have anger issue's with Brangus bulls.
I despise the Gerts anger issues again from my youth.

I have been on a long journey that has had some very hard lessons along the way. I tend to be slighty opinionated at times. I have seen when this journey started not knowing what an EPD was and the trainwrecks that followed.
I wore out a set of CHAINS pulling Char cross calves. Note you can not put pallet head Char bulls on 800 pound crossbred cows. This was due to we had cranial rectum inversion.
Again IMOO we worked hard as an industry to improve the breeds and calf survivabilty in the last 40 years, seems to me to many breeders are trying to sell a better fishing lure thats not better. ;-)
Poor Joe sees the crossbred bull and says WOW and throws out the science on the hybred vigor on a two way cross and think he can put that on a herd of cows that look like a box of crayons and think he will have some predictabilty. It has papers it has to be good right.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"This was due to we had cranial rectum inversion" ROL :lol: that was hilarius - but makes a perfect visual image :shock:

 

[MF135]

What you got is papers on a crossbred bull he can't be a true Brangus of anything else . Might as well be toilet paper's for breeding purposes. IMO this is a shell game being played as you have people buying bulls getting worthless epd's as this is not a standardized composite. If I remember right it takes seven generations, before you would have an animal that would breed true. The Red brangus association is almost as bad as the Chianina, to register a bovine as a Chianina all you have to have is a picture of one and show it to your cows.
Yes you have a 5/8 3/8 crossbreed by the above mating, not a true anything.
Until you go through the process of F-1 to F-1 F-2 back to F-2 and so on you have a crossbred animal.
This is like me putting my Angus bull on my F-1 baldies and asking the Angus association to register them as 3/4 Angus, 1/4 Hereford thats worthless papers.

The papers may be worthless, but the bull may be exceptional.

 

[Caustic Burno]

What you got is papers on a crossbred bull he can't be a true Brangus of anything else . Might as well be toilet paper's for breeding purposes. IMO this is a shell game being played as you have people buying bulls getting worthless epd's as this is not a standardized composite. If I remember right it takes seven generations, before you would have an animal that would breed true. The Red brangus association is almost as bad as the Chianina, to register a bovine as a Chianina all you have to have is a picture of one and show it to your cows.
Yes you have a 5/8 3/8 crossbreed by the above mating, not a true anything.
Until you go through the process of F-1 to F-1 F-2 back to F-2 and so on you have a crossbred animal.
This is like me putting my Angus bull on my F-1 baldies and asking the Angus association to register them as 3/4 Angus, 1/4 Hereford thats worthless papers.

The papers may be worthless, but the bull may be exceptional.

That is true, but the days of me playing craps with a bull are in the past. There is no reason today to do the stupid things we did forty years ago. All we used to have to go on was the way one looked or buy an older proven bull.
A bad cow hurts a bad bull is a disaster. This is magnified even greater if he is going on a herd that looks like a box of crayons. I have seen some great looking bulls that I wouldn't let in my pasture, again this gets back to EPD's and heirability that have accuracy not just numbers.

 

[TexasBred]

What you got is papers on a crossbred bull he can't be a true Brangus of anything else . Might as well be toilet paper's for breeding purposes. IMO this is a shell game being played as you have people buying bulls getting worthless epd's as this is not a standardized composite. If I remember right it takes seven generations, before you would have an animal that would breed true. The Red brangus association is almost as bad as the Chianina, to register a bovine as a Chianina all you have to have is a picture of one and show it to your cows.
Yes you have a 5/8 3/8 crossbreed by the above mating, not a true anything.
Until you go through the process of F-1 to F-1 F-2 back to F-2 and so on you have a crossbred animal.
This is like me putting my Angus bull on my F-1 baldies and asking the Angus association to register them as 3/4 Angus, 1/4 Hereford thats worthless papers.

The papers may be worthless, but the bull may be exceptional.

You givin' odds on this?????????? Slim chance it could be ... just don't pass it off for something it ain't and won't ever be.

 

[MF135]

What you got is papers on a crossbred bull he can't be a true Brangus of anything else . Might as well be toilet paper's for breeding purposes. IMO this is a shell game being played as you have people buying bulls getting worthless epd's as this is not a standardized composite. If I remember right it takes seven generations, before you would have an animal that would breed true. The Red brangus association is almost as bad as the Chianina, to register a bovine as a Chianina all you have to have is a picture of one and show it to your cows.
Yes you have a 5/8 3/8 crossbreed by the above mating, not a true anything.
Until you go through the process of F-1 to F-1 F-2 back to F-2 and so on you have a crossbred animal.
This is like me putting my Angus bull on my F-1 baldies and asking the Angus association to register them as 3/4 Angus, 1/4 Hereford thats worthless papers.

The papers may be worthless, but the bull may be exceptional.

You givin' odds on this?????????? Slim chance it could be ... just don't pass it off for something it ain't and won't ever be.

No, but I wouldn't give odds against it either. I'm sure Caustic has both quality Angus and Baldies and I see no reason why a bull out of them couldn't be quality as well. Why are bulls such as the Balancer, Lim Flex, any F1 SimAngus perceived to be any more consistent in calving or superior than other F1 hybrid bulls? I would think there would be more consistency out of a british x british composite than there would be in a Continental x british composite bull.

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

The bull is doing a great job his calves brought good money at the sale barn. There is really no crap shoot. And why wood be anything bad in the woodpile. HIm being 3/4 angus 1/4 brahman. means he started from a registered Brahman and registered red angus. The F1 bred an angus. If all cattle were papered there isnt a crap shoot. Putting a registered brahman on a cow does not mean there is a crapshoot if the bull is registered he goes back to more brahman and same with red angus.

 

[cypressfarms]

The bull is doing a great job his calves brought good money at the sale barn. There is really no crap shoot. And why wood be anything bad in the woodpile. HIm being 3/4 angus 1/4 brahman. means he started from a registered Brahman and registered red angus. The F1 bred an angus. If all cattle were papered there isnt a crap shoot. Putting a registered brahman on a cow does not mean there is a crapshoot if the bull is registered he goes back to more brahman and same with red angus.

Hey BFordman, I hope he works for you, and I think he looks good. But, it is a crapshoot, and here's why:

You have not data to predict what calf weights (that he sires) might be. You'll have to wait and see how he does. This would automatically prevent me from breeding him to any heifers.

You also have no data on what his progeny will wean at, or what their yearling weight will be. You also have no idea if this bull will produce heifers that are good milkers.

Yet another unknown is his calving ease (his direct progeny) or his progeny heifers calving ease.

So to sum it up, he may look great, but it is a crap shoot. You do not know what he will throw. Granted even with epd's it is only a "prediction", but it is fact/data based. Do you know the birthweight of this bull? That would help you some. I think Caustic's point is that this may be a great bull, and 40 years ago many cattlemen would jump at him; but with today's technology that allows one to know with a decent certainty what a bull will do, why take the risk? Is the savings on the bull worth it for an unknown calf crop. This bull may throw similar looking calves, but there are many crossbred bulls that throw calves that look like everything from a highland to a piedmontese; the trouble is you never know which one will come out.

Not bashing your bull, sorry if it came across that way, but with today's great selection of bulls it is a risk to have a crossbred like this.

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

The bull is doing a great job his calves brought good money at the sale barn. There is really no crap shoot. And why wood be anything bad in the woodpile. HIm being 3/4 angus 1/4 brahman. means he started from a registered Brahman and registered red angus. The F1 bred an angus. If all cattle were papered there isnt a crap shoot. Putting a registered brahman on a cow does not mean there is a crapshoot if the bull is registered he goes back to more brahman and same with red angus.

Hey BFordman, I hope he works for you, and I think he looks good. But, it is a crapshoot, and here's why:

You have not data to predict what calf weights (that he sires) might be. You'll have to wait and see how he does. This would automatically prevent me from breeding him to any heifers.

You also have no data on what his progeny will wean at, or what their yearling weight will be. You also have no idea if this bull will produce heifers that are good milkers.

Yet another unknown is his calving ease (his direct progeny) or his progeny heifers calving ease.

So to sum it up, he may look great, but it is a crap shoot. You do not know what he will throw. Granted even with epd's it is only a "prediction", but it is fact/data based. Do you know the birthweight of this bull? That would help you some. I think Caustic's point is that this may be a great bull, and 40 years ago many cattlemen would jump at him; but with today's technology that allows one to know with a decent certainty what a bull will do, why take the risk? Is the savings on the bull worth it for an unknown calf crop. This bull may throw similar looking calves, but there are many crossbred bulls that throw calves that look like everything from a highland to a piedmontese; the trouble is you never know which one will come out.

Not bashing your bull, sorry if it came across that way, but with today's great selection of bulls it is a risk to have a crossbred like this.

The breeder I got him said he would work well on heifers. All my cows were heifers when I bred them the year before last. I pulled one calf. The calf was small, the heifer bred a little young. All his calves were very small.

And I don't see why there is no way to predict.
All other bulls like registered angus, the say if the bull can be used on heifers, because of the sire of the bulls birthweight and the bulls birthweight right?
HOw would they tell this on any other full blood virgin bull?
Wouldn't it be a crap shoot everytime you bought a virgin bull, if that is the case?

HIs birthweight was 73 lbs. All his calves have been dark red to light red. And a few black from a couple of black cows. If his mom was red and his dad was red and the brahman that is in him was red. Why is there a chance he can throw anything?

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

If his sire has epds for his progency and his red angus dam does, why is there a crap shoot.

http://www.int-brangus.org/modules....l&search_value=&animal_registration=C10054468

It list epds on him and shows info on his calve, look it up. So I do not see why there is no way of knowing what his offspring will be and how they will turn out.

 

[cypressfarms]

The breeder I got him said he would work well on heifers. All my cows were heifers when I bred them the year before last. I pulled one calf.
HIs birthweight was 73 lbs. All his calves have been dark red to light red. And a few black from a couple of black cows. If his mom was red and his dad was red and the brahman that is in him was red. Why is there a chance he can throw anything?

You know Brafordman, I wish you well; but you're barn blind with this bull. Reasoning obviously doesn't work with you, so please go ahead and proceed with the bull, not that you would change anyway. I've seen many people that believe their (fill in the blank) cross bull was the best in the land, and once in a blue moon they are right. You're going back to the '70's in your selection criteria for a bull. Fine by me, do what you will, I wish you the best with your "brangus" bull.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I do not percieve these to be anything but crossbred as well and would not use one. This again IMO is where cattlemen are getting sold a bill of goods and are being barn blind, nothing more than another marketing ploy .
In the composites if they have been bred true to make a new breed they should breed as true as anything else this is not accomplished at he F-1 and F-2 or F-3 stage of the game.
The thing that would make me have high pucker factor about Brafordmans bull is the Brimmer and not being a standardized composite. Brimmer dna placed over English or Continental cattle will result in 10% heavier calfing weights, English dna over Brimmer a 7 % reduction in the same weights . Wait each calving season and see what shows up . I would have nightmares wondering what would pop out of him on a set of commercial cows. Just because you get a decent crop of calves once out of him doesn't mean you will a second or third time there are to many varibles in the woodpile.
I have had some kick butt bull calfs born the best looking I have seen was Brangus/ Hereford cross there was no way on the green earth I would put him on a set of cows.
Most commercial cattlemen have a herd of cattle that look like a box of crayons, that said this is not bad but the only thing that is consistant in your breeding program is the bull.
The problem with F-1 hybred bulls is simple genetic science in my book, you have predictability in a two way cross again you have predictability in a 3 way cross. In a 4 way all bets are off and there is no telling what will come out of the wood pile. Using crossbred bulls on crossbred cows again is a crap shot at best.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I am not picking on Brafordman's bull if I was driving down the road and seen him a pasture I would say wow.
If I saw his papers I would have said whoa. I just don't see the sense in this generation of cattlemen making the same screw up's as mine. There is no free ride on this journey and the ticket price is high.
That being said where Brafordman lives he needs some Brimmer influence cattle and is on the right track there IMO.
Now all he has to do is get a consistant looking herd of red cattle and his options open up to follow the market to maximize his profit. Get a good Black Brangus and have black calfs a Char and high yellows a Hereford red baldies.
That Trinty river bottom country in Chambers county is rough on a cow.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Caustic - I have to say the words coming out of you kinda amaze me. It is really great to hear you are an EPD believer! Don't know why - but that didn't "fit" my image. :banana:

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

I was just asking questions, never said you were wrong or right. And yes my herd is made up of red cows. Before you jumped to conclusion on anything you never asked me what kind of cows he went on.
This bull is what I make a living from while I am in school. I never said I would keep heifers out of him, HIS calves are sent to the salebarn. Would I keep heifers yes I would. You will never know if his heifers will turn out good or any other bulls heifers will unless you keep a few and see. EPDS are not always correct. SOme of these papered full blood bull will trows some surprises as well. What did people do before EPDs, it is call trial and error.


ANd about the crossbred bull thing, sometimes there are a few good ones. I have a braford cross bull that my dad raised, his mother was a dark colored F1 braford and she was bred when we got her. The bull was born red white face with a hump on his back. I do not know what his father was and do not care. We decided to keep him and some heifers, I had problems with one heifer in 9 years.
I have been using the bull for about 9 years now never had any other problems he has bred heifers, santa gertrudis cross cows,brangus baldies and black baldies and brangus. Never had huge calves calves . This bull is about 2700 lbs and has been grass fed all his life.
His calves are tigerstripe with white faces. On once in a blue moon I will get a few solid colors. F1s sell as good as black calves do and his calves look like F1s.
My herd of cows is made up of his offspring. His heifers milk better and raised huge calves and maintain their body condition on grass only. His calves bring good money.

I do not care if my cows look like a box of crayons, they raise some darn good calves for me. All i need is the right bull and he will give me a uniform calf crop.

Raising commercial cattle is different in each state.
In my neck of the woods tigerstripe, char cross( including smokies), black and dark reds sell better over anything.
And sell barns work different in texas. Your calves are not sold in groups and on uniformity, they are sold one by one. Things may work different in your part of the country. There is no way to maximize profit. It is either the calf is good or it isn't. The buyers look at each calf individually.

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

YOu big time ranchers think your fullblood animals are better and raise better calves. Crossbred calves do better and raise better calves then some of your fullblood cows. IF the cow cross bred or not comes from good stock then they will raise good stock when bred to a good bull. BRing some of your full bloods to my part of texas and put them up against my cross bred cows that look like crayons. And see how they do. Nothing against fullbloods as I have some myself. Unless you have raise crossbred cows do not talk against them. You may have had trouble with them and trainwrecks, that does not mean I will.I know what I am doing when I pick a bull and put him on a crossbred cow. Epds are not everything and they have not always been around. I have never gone wrong with choosing cows or bulls. I am not barnblind, I know what I am doing when i choose cows and bulls. I have confidence in my cattle and I know their blood and how they will perform. A good bull is a good bull cross bred or not and same goes for cows. I have some crossbred cows that may not look like much and may be 900 lbs, but they raise 600-700lbs on grass alone.

Some of you are so used to your full blood cows that you do not have a clue about crossbreds. ALl you know is about full bloods and how to pick them
When all you raise is crossbreds you know something about them. Alot of you fullblood cow raisers would not know how to pick a good crossbred cow because you do not raise them.

 

[txag]

Angus Plus

http://old.redangus.org/newredsite/them ... eature.htm

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www. ... E67xVtxlJQ

 

[chippie]

I hope that your bull works out for you. After all it is your nickel.

But just because an animal is registered or is out of registered stock does not guarantee that is a good individual. It can be a indication of what the animal should be like and be able to produce, however I'm sure that most everyone here has seen registered stock that should have it's papers pulled.

It seems that there are getting to be fewer and fewer pure bred cattle breeds. The breed registries are registering cross-breds and then there are people who are cross two or more breeds, give it a name and start a registry.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I was just asking questions, never said you were wrong or right. And yes my herd is made up of red cows. Before you jumped to conclusion on anything you never asked me what kind of cows he went on.
This bull is what I make a living from while I am in school. I never said I would keep heifers out of him, HIS calves are sent to the salebarn. Would I keep heifers yes I would. You will never know if his heifers will turn out good or any other bulls heifers will unless you keep a few and see. EPDS are not always correct. SOme of these papered full blood bull will trows some surprises as well. What did people do before EPDs, it is call trial and error.


ANd about the crossbred bull thing, sometimes there are a few good ones. I have a braford cross bull that my dad raised, his mother was a dark colored F1 braford and she was bred when we got her. The bull was born red white face with a hump on his back. I do not know what his father was and do not care. We decided to keep him and some heifers, I had problems with one heifer in 9 years.
I have been using the bull for about 9 years now never had any other problems he has bred heifers, santa gertrudis cross cows,brangus baldies and black baldies and brangus. Never had huge calves calves . This bull is about 2700 lbs and has been grass fed all his life.
His calves are tigerstripe with white faces. On once in a blue moon I will get a few solid colors. F1s sell as good as black calves do and his calves look like F1s.
My herd of cows is made up of his offspring. His heifers milk better and raised huge calves and maintain their body condition on grass only. His calves bring good money.

I do not care if my cows look like a box of crayons, they raise some darn good calves for me. All i need is the right bull and he will give me a uniform calf crop.

Raising commercial cattle is different in each state.
In my neck of the woods tigerstripe, char cross( including smokies), black and dark reds sell better over anything.
And sell barns work different in texas. Your calves are not sold in groups and on uniformity, they are sold one by one. Things may work different in your part of the country. There is no way to maximize profit. It is either the calf is good or it isn't. The buyers look at each calf individually.

Were do you haul to Raywood or Sealy as if I remember right Winnie shutdown. Used to enjoy going to Winnie and watching the show. You are right about the Tigers sell better than anything if it is a heifer, dang near have to give the steer calf away. Even though our calves are sold one by one in Texas that order buyer is still trying to fill the trailer with uniform cattle. If you ever set through a sale like Crockett you will see one buyer buying X color in 4 to 5 weights and another buying Y color.
There is nothing wrong with a box of crayons you are just going to have more anomlies in your calf crop, and you will never maximize your profit potential until you standardize you commercial herd be it Herf/Char, Herf/Briimer etc .
You can't fight the science a two way cross is going to give you 10% more weaning weight a 3 way cross 20%.
With anymore than that all bets are off.
By targeting your operation to get a consistant commercial cow you give yourself more options to maximize profit.
There is many a commercial cowman that runs a uniform herd of cattle.
Targeting for black baldie or red baldie momma cow lets you change the entire calf crop color to follow the market by changing the bull. That said you have more options with the red baldie cow than any other. You should also be working to a polled herd as we get docked for horns across the scales as well.

 

[BRAFORDMAN]

I hope that your bull works out for you. After all it is your nickel.

But just because an animal is registered or is out of registered stock does not guarantee that is a good individual. It can be a indication of what the animal should be like and be able to produce, however I'm sure that most everyone here has seen registered stock that should have it's papers pulled.

It seems that there are getting to be fewer and fewer pure bred cattle breeds. The breed registries are registering cross-breds and then there are people who are cross two or more breeds, give it a name and start a registry.

Thanks ,
My point exactly, I have seen myself sorry registered cattle. No one knows even with EPD's what an individual will produce cross bred or not or papers. It is called trial and error. There is always a bad egg in the bunch.

So as you use him you will know yourself how well your bull produces. :nod: